Charles Barkley praises Pistons, leaves magic and Bird off his all time top ten NBA players

DWags wrote:“You know, I love LeBron and everything about him but I still think that the way they play the game today he didn’t want any part of those bad boy Pistons,” Barkley said. “Let me tell you something, those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you were playing the Pistons you had to call home and tell your family you love them just in case you never saw them again.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/charles-barkley-leaves-kobe-and-le-bron-out-of-his-list-of-top-5-nba-players-of-alltime-172252805.html

steveschneider wrote:

DWags wrote:“You know, I love LeBron and everything about him but I still think that the way they play the game today he didn’t want any part of those bad boy Pistons,” Barkley said. “Let me tell you something, those guys were out there trying to hurt people. I used to always tell people when you were playing the Pistons you had to call home and tell your family you love them just in case you never saw them again.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/charles-barkley-leaves-kobe-and-le-bron-out-of-his-list-of-top-5-nba-players-of-alltime-172252805.html

I do think that era was the golden era but I find the argument that today's players couldn't handle getting knocked on their ass a bit ridiculous. Today's players can shoot so much better, have quicker releases and can handle the ball better than they could in the 80's. They also play above the rim better than they did in the 80's and 90's. I think the reality is the game keeps improving and getting better and today's players are just better.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I do think that era was the golden era but I find the argument that today's players couldn't handle getting knocked on their ass a bit ridiculous. Today's players can shoot so much better, have quicker releases and can handle the ball better than they could in the 80's. They also play above the rim better than they did in the 80's and 90's. I think the reality is the game keeps improving and getting better and today's players are just better.

Sign me up for trying to compare players from different eras is impossible but I’m with Steve here. The athleticism appears to be much better today.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Is that praise?

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I do think that era was the golden era but I find the argument that today's players couldn't handle getting knocked on their ass a bit ridiculous. Today's players can shoot so much better, have quicker releases and can handle the ball better than they could in the 80's. They also play above the rim better than they did in the 80's and 90's. I think the reality is the game keeps improving and getting better and today's players are just better.

Sign me up for trying to compare players from different eras is impossible but I’m with Steve here. The athleticism appears to be much better today.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Is that praise?

Turtleneck wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Sign me up for trying to compare players from different eras is impossible but I’m with Steve here. The athleticism appears to be much better today.

When was the last time you saw a 6'9 PG run the floor like Magic? Are you saying MJ, Domique, or Drexler were not as athletic as anybody playing today? Dr. J might be the most athletic player of all time. Hakeem would eat any big man in today's game alive.

Today's NBA is not more athletic, but the game has changed and it is just as good as the "golden years." I those years are considered great becuase its when the league really broke through.

The league went to shit for about 10-12 years beginning in the late 90s, but's back to being the best pro sports league in the U.S.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Thank you for pointing out some athletic players from that era.

Turtleneck wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Thank you for pointing out some athletic players from that era.

Well, you're kind of clueless about anything that happened before 1995.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:According to the google machine, not that vert is everything, but HVOAT is a tie at 48" between MJ and Wilt. 3rd is a guy named Daryl Griffith and next is J Rich at 46.5. Interesting. Shannon Brown on the list at 44.5. Ja Morant checking in at 44.

Turtleneck wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Sign me up for trying to compare players from different eras is impossible but I’m with Steve here. The athleticism appears to be much better today.

When was the last time you saw a 6'9 PG run the floor like Magic? Are you saying MJ, Dominique Wilkins, or Clyde Drexler were not as athletic as anybody playing today? Dr. J might be the most athletic player of all time. Hakeem would eat any big man in today's game alive.

Today's NBA is not more athletic, but the game has changed and is not as well suited to players from past eras. Those players from the past were just as athletic and talented, just like today's teams are just as good as those from past years. I think people remember those years as the "golden years" becuase that's when the league really broke through.

The league went to shit for about 10-12 years beginning in the late 90s, but it's back to being the best pro sports league in the U.S.

CORNER BLITZ wrote:Intersting TED talk on athletes getting stronger/faster/better

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Where do you think OTPT would be on the list if he had decided to pursue the NBA? Top 6 for sure.

Cameron wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

When was the last time you saw a 6'9 PG run the floor like Magic? Are you saying MJ, Dominique Wilkins, or Clyde Drexler were not as athletic as anybody playing today? Dr. J might be the most athletic player of all time. Hakeem would eat any big man in today's game alive.

Today's NBA is not more athletic, but the game has changed and is not as well suited to players from past eras. Those players from the past were just as athletic and talented, just like today's teams are just as good as those from past years. I think people remember those years as the "golden years" becuase that's when the league really broke through.

The league went to shit for about 10-12 years beginning in the late 90s, but it's back to being the best pro sports league in the U.S.

I don't know that anyone here is arguing that the greats of past generations would not be great now. But I think the baseline has risen, and the benchwarmers and role players are better/more athletic now than in the past.

If you look at something like track and field, records are continually broken. Humanity has not peaked athletically, as far as I'm aware.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

Cameron wrote:

I don't know that anyone here is arguing that the greats of past generations would not be great now. But I think the baseline has risen, and the benchwarmers and role players are better/more athletic now than in the past.

If you look at something like track and field, records are continually broken. Humanity has not peaked athletically, as far as I'm aware.

And I don't think it ever will peak.  Growth in athleticism is only possible due to growth in knowledge, and I don't think knowledge will ever peak, short of a massive existential crisis.

Turtleneck wrote:Does more athletic mean better shooters, better ballhandlers, or better defenders? Basketball is an incredibly technical game when you consider the entire skillset needed to sustain a pro career. It's about a lot more than raw athleticism. I am not saying the teams of the past, or the players, are better, but they are no worse in respect to their ability to play the game.

Cameron wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Does more athletic mean better shooters, better ballhandlers, or better defenders? Basketball is an incredibly technical game when you consider the entire skillset needed to sustain a pro career. It's about a lot more than raw athleticism. I am not saying the teams of the past, or the players, are better, but they are no worse in respect to their ability to play the game.

Shooting has gotten measurably better. The other stuff is harder to quantify.

Turtleneck wrote:

Cameron wrote:

Shooting has gotten measurably better. The other stuff is harder to quantify.

Well, let's look at the numbers. To me it looks like 3pt shooting is definitely better, but the overall league wide shooting percentage was often better from 1980 through the mid-to-late 1990s. My guess is it's a function of the how the game has changed. Thinking there were far more mid-range and post shots in those years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

Cameron wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

Well, let's look at the numbers. To me it looks like 3pt shooting is definitely better, but the overall league wide shooting percentage was often better from 1980 through the mid-to-late 1990s. My guess is it's a function of the how the game has changed. Thinking there were far more mid-range and post shots in those years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

As you said, 3 point shooting has gotten better. On the whole, 2 point shots are still higher percentage, though, so it makes sense (at least to me) that as the proportion of 3 point shots goes up, the overall shooting percentage could go down, even while shooting as a whole demonstrably improves. This is demonstrated by eFG%, which accounts for such things and has been steadily improving.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

Cameron wrote:

As you said, 3 point shooting has gotten better. On the whole, 2 point shots are still higher percentage, though, so it makes sense (at least to me) that as the proportion of 3 point shots goes up, the overall shooting percentage could go down, even while shooting as a whole demonstrably improves. This is demonstrated by eFG%, which accounts for such things and has been steadily improving.

But 3 pt percentages could also be a function of the differences in physicality.  A more physical game is going to tire you out more and when your legs are tired your long range shot suffers.  It is one of those intangibles that is hard to translate over eras.

Turtleneck wrote:Is it really that significant? Using the same numbers, from 1980-1999, the league wide shooting percentage ranged from 44% to 49%. From 2000-2019, the range was 44%-46%. Using effective field goal percentage, the 1980-1999 range is 47%-50%. From 2000, it is 47%-53%. However, the upper end of that range is very, very recent. For most of the total time period, the effective field goal percentage largely favors the 21st century, but does not seem to be signifigacntly better (even though the three point shooting is much better). I don't know, maybe pretty pointless. I guess you're right when you say Tim Hardaway, Jr is the greatest player of all time.