Re: Charles Barkley praises Pistons, leaves magic and Bird off his all time top ten NBA players

by **Cameron** 2020-05-04, 03:04

By the way, breaking the NBA into 20 year chunks (80-99, 00-19) is silly. The game in 1980 was VASTLY different than the game in 1999. That's a rather transparent way to manipulate the stats.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-05-04, 07:51

That was a joke. Pretty sure you were never asserting that.

And yes, I did recognize that because we're all reading the same statistics.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 09:58

I'm old enough to have gone to my first NBA game in the mid-70s. Remember it well....Pistons with Lanier, ML Carr, Bad News Barnes beat the Bullets with Hayes, Unseld and Bing (he was finishing up his career with Washington). And if you want a better argument - Cobo for basketball was better than the Silverdome, the Palace and the new Caesars arena.

OK, any argument that tries to negate the improved athletic ability over time is simply ignoring reality. This is true in all sports as athletes are bigger, stronger, faster with better development, training, nutrition, and earlier specialization during adolescence. Comparing athletic ability across generations is a fraught argument given this dynamic. But there is also some truth in realizing how the game has evolved and whether a player from one era could adjust to another. It's not the same game. Two thoughts from the past....

Before 1979 - no 3-point line. Driving the lane, mid-range jump-shots and dominance of the big centers. Wilt, Jabbar, Russell, Reed, Malone, Walton, Lanier, Unseld, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. Try to find a role for a typical 3-point shooter from today's game in that NBA. And today's center couldn't bang in in the paint with the 70's style of play. Different game. And you'd find out which of today's player could handle their coke.

1980s - the 3-point shot starts to become a factor. It isn't the go-to offensive shot by any means but it does create space. Defenses adjust with physicality and it kept building until the NBA got scared somebody, namely the Pistons, would hurt precious MJ. You had a lot of complete players in this era and that's why many consider it a high-water mark for the NBA. The physicality of the league as a whole would frighten today's player who isn't used to have a hand on them while shooting. Mentally tough players in that era given the approach to defense.

The 1990s had some great players but the league turned themselves into the Harlem Globetrotters show with the Bulls. Apart from his hiatus as he ran from the ramifications of his gambling problem, the league wanted teams to play the Washington Generals so Jordan could have his moments. The league got softer, players became more specialized, players looked to coordinate to form super-teams, rivalries died, the 3-point shot continued to become the go-to offensive approach and oddly enough it was that Wallace, Rip, Billups era Pistons that stand out for a different approach - team-oriented, defensive orientation, physical. The NBA doesn't like that as they want stars running pretty.

My belief about the NBA having gone to NBA games for some 45-years now is this - the 3-pointer has ruined the game. It's not that it was a bad idea, can't have a role, but the evolution of the approach to offensive game planning is out of control. It's a shooting contest. If that's your thing, today's game is for you. But I'll quote Popovich....

"There's no basketball anymore, there's no beauty in it. Now you look at a stat sheet after a game and the first thing you look at is the 3s. If you made 3s and the other team didn't, you win. You don't even look at the rebounds or the turnovers or how much transition D was involved. You don't even care."

3-Point Attempts Per Game

1990 - 7.1
2000 - 13.7
2010 - 18.1
2020 - 33.9

Lots of ideas out there to fix it - stop loitering on the 3-point line (3-second rule like you have in the paint), move the line back, eliminate the corner 3-point zones, allow goaltending on 3-point attempts, etc. The NBA is a 3-on-3 game right now with the others standing around the line. It's boring. But to change the mindset means you have to change the coaching approach. The history of how the game has evolved has shown how this has been done previously. Right now, the problem with the NBA is obvious, in my opinion. And addressing that problem would tell you a whole lot more about which of today's player could translate to a different era.

P.S. Thomas wasn't on the Dream Team because he wasn't liked and for legitimate reasons. Full stop. That's it. Jordan was the king-maker so the choice ultimately ran through him. Stockton being a damn good player made that choice easier. The Bad Boys Pistons made enemies. There is no need to apologize for that fact. Scoreboard. Jordan didn't win until the NBA got defenses to back off. That's just true. But that was an era where there were teams with rivalries and personalities. People are enjoying this documentary because it's missing in today's NBA.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-05-05, 10:03

Heathens!! We need you here, bro.

oh - and I've always meant to tell you this, but congrats on choosing a screen name associated with one of my favorite Drive By Trucker tunes.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 10:13

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Heathens!! We need you here, bro.

oh - and I've always meant to tell you this, but congrats on choosing a screen name associated with one of my favorite Drive By Trucker tunes.

Sak....good to see you. I pop up from time to time as life and work allow for some distraction. The other board is too full of the younglings with their passions untethered from realities or experience. Seems a bit more old school here. But still lurking on occasion. I know that song. But actually Heathens was the floor team name for 1HW Holmes back in the day. Seemed a good choice for Spartan based discussions.....

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2020-05-05, 10:14

Bob, since it’s cinco de mayo and in honor of your great friend sparty libre if you post about music or music suggestion I’m banning you

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 10:25

Heathens '87 wrote:I'm old enough to have gone to my first NBA game in the mid-70s. Remember it well....Pistons with Lanier, ML Carr, Bad News Barnes beat the Bullets with Hayes, Unseld and Bing (he was finishing up his career with Washington). And if you want a better argument - Cobo for basketball was better than the Silverdome, the Palace and the new Caesars arena.

OK, any argument that tries to negate the improved athletic ability over time is simply ignoring reality. This is true in all sports as athletes are bigger, stronger, faster with better development, training, nutrition, and earlier specialization during adolescence. Comparing athletic ability across generations is a fraught argument given this dynamic. But there is also some truth in realizing how the game has evolved and whether a player from one era could adjust to another. It's not the same game. Two thoughts from the past....

Before 1979 - no 3-point line. Driving the lane, mid-range jump-shots and dominance of the big centers. Wilt, Jabbar, Russell, Reed, Malone, Walton, Lanier, Unseld, McAdoo, Gilmore, etc. Try to find a role for a typical 3-point shooter from today's game in that NBA. And today's center couldn't bang in in the paint with the 70's style of play. Different game. And you'd find out which of today's player could handle their coke.

1980s - the 3-point shot starts to become a factor. It isn't the go-to offensive shot by any means but it does create space. Defenses adjust with physicality and it kept building until the NBA got scared somebody, namely the Pistons, would hurt precious MJ. You had a lot of complete players in this era and that's why many consider it a high-water mark for the NBA. The physicality of the league as a whole would frighten today's player who isn't used to have a hand on them while shooting. Mentally tough players in that era given the approach to defense.

The 1990s had some great players but the league turned themselves into the Harlem Globetrotters show with the Bulls. Apart from his hiatus as he ran from the ramifications of his gambling problem, the league wanted teams to play the Washington Generals so Jordan could have his moments. The league got softer, players became more specialized, players looked to coordinate to form super-teams, rivalries died, the 3-point shot continued to become the go-to offensive approach and oddly enough it was that Wallace, Rip, Billups era Pistons that stand out for a different approach - team-oriented, defensive orientation, physical. The NBA doesn't like that as they want stars running pretty.

My belief about the NBA having gone to NBA games for some 45-years now is this - the 3-pointer has ruined the game. It's not that it was a bad idea, can't have a role, but the evolution of the approach to offensive game planning is out of control. It's a shooting contest. If that's your thing, today's game is for you. But I'll quote Popovich....

"There's no basketball anymore, there's no beauty in it. Now you look at a stat sheet after a game and the first thing you look at is the 3s. If you made 3s and the other team didn't, you win. You don't even look at the rebounds or the turnovers or how much transition D was involved. You don't even care."

3-Point Attempts Per Game

1990 - 7.1
2000 - 13.7
2010 - 18.1
2020 - 33.9

Lots of ideas out there to fix it - stop loitering on the 3-point line (3-second rule like you have in the paint), move the line back, eliminate the corner 3-point zones, allow goaltending on 3-point attempts, etc. The NBA is a 3-on-3 game right now with the others standing around the line. It's boring. But to change the mindset means you have to change the coaching approach. The history of how the game has evolved has shown how this has been done previously. Right now, the problem with the NBA is obvious, in my opinion. And addressing that problem would tell you a whole lot more about which of today's player could translate to a different era.

P.S. Thomas wasn't on the Dream Team because he wasn't liked and for legitimate reasons. Full stop. That's it. Jordan was the king-maker so the choice ultimately ran through him. Stockton being a damn good player made that choice easier. The Bad Boys Pistons made enemies. There is no need to apologize for that fact. Scoreboard. Jordan didn't win until the NBA got defenses to back off. That's just true. But that was an era where there were teams with rivalries and personalities. People are enjoying this documentary because it's missing in today's NBA.

I think ratings and revenues would tend to dispute your notion that there is something wrong with today's NBA. To the best of my knowledge, the league is more popular and profitable now than it has even been.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 10:37

Cameron wrote:I think ratings and revenues would tend to dispute your notion that there is something wrong with today's NBA. To the best of my knowledge, the league is more popular and profitable now than it has even been.

...and Justin Bieber has sold 150 million records. Popular and profitable are not the same discussion as quality.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 10:50

Heathens '87 wrote:
Cameron wrote:I think ratings and revenues would tend to dispute your notion that there is something wrong with today's NBA. To the best of my knowledge, the league is more popular and profitable now than it has even been.

...and Justin Bieber has sold 150 million records. Popular and profitable are not the same discussion as quality.

Heathens, imo the golden era was the 80's. I do enjoy today's game a lot actually but nothing measured up to the hatred and intensity of the 80's rivalries.

In the Jordan thread I opined that Kareem and Lebron belong in the discussion of GOAT.

Kareem based on him having a better resume. Same number of championships, scored more points, and better college player 3 x champion.

Lebron based on his athleticism and his ability to pass the ball better and involve his teammates better than Jordan. What say you?

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 11:07

steveschneider wrote:

Heathens, imo the golden era was the 80's. I do enjoy today's game a lot actually but nothing measured up to the hatred and intensity of the 80's rivalries.

In the Jordan thread I opined that Kareem and Lebron belong in the discussion of GOAT.

Kareem based on him having a better resume. Same number of championships, scored more points, and better college player 3 x champion.

Lebron based on his athleticism and his ability to pass the ball better and involve his teammates better than Jordan. What say you?

Agreed. There is a lot to enjoy in today's NBA. The run the Warriors had was fun as they had the ability to just find a zone for a period to put games out of reach. Leonard is a fun player to watch as he's a complete player, this Bucks team with Giannis could be special, and there is a certain pleasure in watching LeBron try to get in the mix historically with another title. Lots to enjoy.

I'd also agree that Kareem and LeBron are in the GOAT discussion with Jordan. Personally, if Wilt had been able to hit a reasonable percentage on free-throws, he's the GOAT hands-down. I don't think there has been a more transcendent athlete than Jordan in the game. Kareem was the most complete big-man ever. Robertson harder to judge given the era. LeBron is special as he's rather position-free, much like Magic. The right names are all there. It strikes me that LeBron is Tiger Woods to Michael's Nicklaus. Jordan has him in titles and that matters in this elite class of athletes. I'm sure Bill Russell leans in and says "11" to Jabbar at times. I tend to think Jordan is a selfish egomaniac so I'm not one to think of him as as the greatest ever. Jabbar was a complete and classy player, a bit introverted. He's oddly overlooked as he didn't seek the spotlight. That he tried to pass himself off as Roger Murdock is telling while Jordan was the star of Space Jam....

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 11:19

Heathens '87 wrote:
Cameron wrote:I think ratings and revenues would tend to dispute your notion that there is something wrong with today's NBA. To the best of my knowledge, the league is more popular and profitable now than it has even been.

...and Justin Bieber has sold 150 million records. Popular and profitable are not the same discussion as quality.

Sure, but the notion that the 3 point shot has ruined the game is both entirely subjective and also clearly a minority opinion. If you're going to opine about "fixing" the game, it's worth noting that most people don't find it to be broken.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 11:19

[quote="Heathens '87"]

steveschneider wrote:

Agreed. There is a lot to enjoy in today's NBA. The run the Warriors had was fun as they had the ability to just find a zone for a period to put games out of reach. Leonard is a fun player to watch as he's a complete player, this Bucks team with Giannis could be special, and there is a certain pleasure in watching LeBron try to get in the mix historically with another title. Lots to enjoy.

I'd also agree that Kareem and LeBron are in the GOAT discussion with Jordan. Personally, if Wilt had been able to hit a reasonable percentage on free-throws, he's the GOAT hands-down. I don't think there has been a more transcendent athlete than Jordan in the game. Kareem was the most complete big-man ever. Robertson harder to judge given the era. LeBron is special as he's rather position-free, much like Magic. The right names are all there. It strikes me that LeBron is Tiger Woods to Michael's Nicklaus. Jordan has him in titles and that matters in this elite class of athletes. I'm sure Bill Russell leans in and says "11" to Jabbar at times. I tend to think Jordan is a selfish egomaniac so I'm not one to think of him as as the greatest ever......

Well put, kind of a shame for Lebron felt like the odds were really good hecould have picked up #4 this year.

With Kareem I can't believe how often he's overlooked in the discussion. I do find the GOAT talk ridiculous to an extent but since it's an annual tradition to get it going I feel like Kareem belongs in there. Maybe the fact that a huge key to his success was staying healthy and relying on a shot that wasn't really high light reel worthy but impossible to defend.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-05-05, 11:25

Always good when Heathens pops up around here. Good points as usual, and I pretty much agree.

Hope all is well and you're still getting your soccer fix in these times.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 11:29

Cameron wrote:
Heathens '87 wrote:

...and Justin Bieber has sold 150 million records. Popular and profitable are not the same discussion as quality.

Sure, but the notion that the 3 point shot has ruined the game is both entirely subjective and also clearly a minority opinion. If you're going to opine about "fixing" the game, it's worth noting that most people don't find it to be broken.

Charles Barkley praises Pistons, leaves magic and Bird off his all time top ten NBA players - Page 2 992749028

cool it Cameron. He's posting good stuff about sports. As of late when there's good sports discussion there's a hot head coming around trying to throw a wrench into the flow of discussion.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-05-05, 11:34

The wrench is usually you saying something crazy, Steve.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 11:42

Cameron wrote:

Sure, but the notion that the 3 point shot has ruined the game is both entirely subjective and also clearly a minority opinion. If you're going to opine about "fixing" the game, it's worth noting that most people don't find it to be broken.

Of course it's subjective. Last I checked, opinions were and are subjective. That it's a majority or minority view means little to me. I believe that 3-point shooting has fundamentally changed the game for the worse. Gregg Popovich agrees. In terms of coaches I'd prefer on my side, I'd start with Pop. Here's an article I found interesting last year on ESPN that outlined a lot of what I see. As said, I'm old enough to be able to compare eras with my own observations. The quality of play overall has deteriorated in recent years given the focus on 3-point shooting and the league would be wise to adjust. That's been a historical pattern of the NBA with previous issues......

NBA Obsession with 3-Pointers

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-05-05, 11:47

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Bob, since it’s cinco de mayo and in honor of your great friend sparty libre if you post about music or music suggestion I’m banning you

Charles Barkley praises Pistons, leaves magic and Bird off his all time top ten NBA players - Page 2 502811600

he is one uptight dude.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 11:50

Turtleneck wrote:The wrench is usually you saying something crazy, Steve.

here's the other one that is quick to make personal attacks when things don't line up his way.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 12:02

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Sure, but the notion that the 3 point shot has ruined the game is both entirely subjective and also clearly a minority opinion. If you're going to opine about "fixing" the game, it's worth noting that most people don't find it to be broken.

cool it Cameron. He's posting good stuff about sports. As of late when there's good sports discussion there's a hot head coming around trying to throw a wrench into the flow of discussion.

Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts. That's how conversation works, you fucking dipshit.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 12:06

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

cool it Cameron. He's posting good stuff about sports. As of late when there's good sports discussion there's a hot head coming around trying to throw a wrench into the flow of discussion.

Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts. That's how conversation works, you fucking dipshit.

Take a chill pill. Just noting that you've been a little surly and Heathen's is a guest.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 12:07

Cameron wrote:
Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts.

So, subjective opinion requested, what is it you like about having 33.7 3-pointers attempted per game on average (88.8 overall shots, so is more than a third)?! I'm curious as to what others find enjoyable in a game where that is such a part of offensive game-planning. I didn't grow up watching that in basketball so my value-set may be quite different. I'm curious....

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 12:12

Bring back the inside game and allow more co tact on defense. The James Harden flop show has gone a little too far.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 12:14

Heathens '87 wrote:
Cameron wrote:
Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts.

So, subjective opinion requested, what is it you like about having 33.7 3-pointers attempted per game on average (88.8 overall shots, so is more than a third)?! I'm curious as to what others find enjoyable in a game where that is such a part of offensive game-planning. I didn't grow up watching that in basketball so my value-set may be quite different. I'm curious....

I love watching Steph Curry bomb 3s. I love watching a high arcing shot swish through, touching no iron. I love the sound it makes. I also love how attainable it seems, while still being totally unattainable. I can't physically do a lot of the things LeBron does. I can shoot a basketball, though, and I can appreciate how much skill it takes. I don't think it's that impressive to throw down a tomahawk when you're 6'8". Draining a 30 footer is impressive at any height.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 12:17

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts. That's how conversation works, you fucking dipshit.

Take a chill pill. Just noting that you've been a little surly and Heathen's is a guest.

I feel like I've been pretty respectful, though obviously I disagree on some points.

And Heathens isn't a guest, he's a regular member of the Swill. Maybe his posts are not as ubiquitous as your bullshit, but he's as much a part of the Swill as you or I.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 12:25

Cameron wrote:
Heathens '87 wrote:

So, subjective opinion requested, what is it you like about having 33.7 3-pointers attempted per game on average (88.8 overall shots, so is more than a third)?! I'm curious as to what others find enjoyable in a game where that is such a part of offensive game-planning. I didn't grow up watching that in basketball so my value-set may be quite different. I'm curious....

I love watching Steph Curry bomb 3s. I love watching a high arcing shot swish through, touching no iron. I love the sound it makes. I also love how attainable it seems, while still being totally unattainable. I can't physically do a lot of the things LeBron does. I can shoot a basketball, though, and I can appreciate how much skill it takes. I don't think it's that impressive to throw down a tomahawk when you're 6'8". Draining a 30 footer is impressive at any height.

So we agree.....I also enjoy watching someone with the skill of Steph Curry bomb 3-pointers. He's a phenomenal shooter hitting at an incredible .437 percentage from that range. Wow. Problem I have is few are of that skill and they get to drain low-percentage shots thinking they're Curry. The lost art of the mid-range jumper, shooting percentages, having the right player take the shot, etc. I would agree that dunking is for show. It gets the crowd going. But it's a high percentage shot as well, just that you could do it as a layup for the same numbers. Thus the entertainment factor. Heck, I went to a game once just to see Daryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins.

Harden, Curry, George, Lillard....good examples of 3-point shooting done at a high enough percentage where it's worth it. Love, Crowder, Hardaway....not so much. And recent Pistons teams had the fans watching Caldwell-Pope and Josh Smith thinking they're Steph Curry.

So we have some shared territory. So how can the league adjust to encourage the right players taking the right shot?! 3-pointers included in that mix?! We both know players run the league, not the coaches. So the league has to help coaches when they're trying to adjust a dynamic in the league......

by **Turtleneck** 2020-05-05, 12:36

steveschneider wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:The wrench is usually you saying something crazy, Steve.

here's the other one that is quick to make personal attacks when things don't line up his way.

Dude, you say some outrageous stuff. People respond to it. Relative to what goes on here, it's not really personal attacks. Take a deep breath. You're ok.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 12:45

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Take a chill pill. Just noting that you've been a little surly and Heathen's is a guest.

I feel like I've been pretty respectful, though obviously I disagree on some points.

And Heathens isn't a guest, he's a regular member of the Swill. Maybe his posts are not as ubiquitous as your bullshit, but he's as much a part of the Swill as you or I.

I tip my cap to you, you've kept it pretty respectful. Enjoying the talk about sports.

by **DWags** 2020-05-05, 13:28

Call me a thug loving non purest, but I loved the Pistons style of basketball. I think I"ve already said it, but I loved the thought of people understanding they can take this layup, but please know we aren't going to let you take it easy. I honestly don't believe I've watched a 4 quarter basketball game since the bad boys. I've watched parts of them, I've watched the endings, but I haven't watched a whole game. I'll also tell you this, Steph Curry, couldn't hold I. Thomas's jock strap. Thomas or Dumars would also lock him down on Defense. They'd pick him up at half court and good luck trying to score after that. I dom't need 130 points a game. I know I'm probably way in the minority here. But I just liked the pistons style. And they all had skill too. Thehy were great basketball players on offense too. (Maybe not Rodman). That team could win championships in today's games. Multiple. (BTW, I'm not even a pistons fan. I just liked watching them back then)

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 14:09

DWags wrote:Call me a thug loving non purest, but I loved the Pistons style of basketball. I think I"ve already said it, but I loved the thought of people understanding they can take this layup, but please know we aren't going to let you take it easy. I honestly don't believe I've watched a 4 quarter basketball game since the bad boys. I've watched parts of them, I've watched the endings, but I haven't watched a whole game. I'll also tell you this, Steph Curry, couldn't hold I. Thomas's jock strap. Thomas or Dumars would also lock him down on Defense. They'd pick him up at half court and good luck trying to score after that. I dom't need 130 points a game. I know I'm probably way in the minority here. But I just liked the pistons style. And they all had skill too. Thehy were great basketball players on offense too. (Maybe not Rodman). That team could win championships in today's games. Multiple. (BTW, I'm not even a pistons fan. I just liked watching them back then)

I miss the old school post up moves, back to the basket and two bigs battling for position. Kevin McChale I sure did hate him but his foot work was unbelievable to watch. I also caught clips of the Rockets vs Magic series...Hakeem Olajuwon. Holy shit that guy could play. Unbelievable moves in the paint and great shots from 10 feet out from the basket. That is stuff I'd love to see the league get back into the game. Maybe the answer is to remove the corner three.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 15:32

Heathens '87 wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I love watching Steph Curry bomb 3s. I love watching a high arcing shot swish through, touching no iron. I love the sound it makes. I also love how attainable it seems, while still being totally unattainable. I can't physically do a lot of the things LeBron does. I can shoot a basketball, though, and I can appreciate how much skill it takes. I don't think it's that impressive to throw down a tomahawk when you're 6'8". Draining a 30 footer is impressive at any height.

So we agree.....I also enjoy watching someone with the skill of Steph Curry bomb 3-pointers. He's a phenomenal shooter hitting at an incredible .437 percentage from that range. Wow. Problem I have is few are of that skill and they get to drain low-percentage shots thinking they're Curry. The lost art of the mid-range jumper, shooting percentages, having the right player take the shot, etc. I would agree that dunking is for show. It gets the crowd going. But it's a high percentage shot as well, just that you could do it as a layup for the same numbers. Thus the entertainment factor. Heck, I went to a game once just to see Daryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins.

Harden, Curry, George, Lillard....good examples of 3-point shooting done at a high enough percentage where it's worth it. Love, Crowder, Hardaway....not so much. And recent Pistons teams had the fans watching Caldwell-Pope and Josh Smith thinking they're Steph Curry.

So we have some shared territory. So how can the league adjust to encourage the right players taking the right shot?! 3-pointers included in that mix?! We both know players run the league, not the coaches. So the league has to help coaches when they're trying to adjust a dynamic in the league......

I think the right shots are being encouraged now, mostly. It's gonna be rarer and rarer for guys who can't shoot to stick in the league, no matter how good their other skills. I generally think that's a positive development.

With some more reflection, I have realized that the game seems more open now. Better spacing, less clutter in the paint. I also prefer seeing lots of passes trying to find the open man. That's more compelling to me than watching Patrick Ewing post up or watching a Carmelo Anthony type just run isos every possession.

Part of it is also the analytics aspect and the way we are conditioned to think about basketball now. Part of me always cringes when a guy takes a long 2, even if it goes in. The math is just inescapable. Shooting 33% from 3 has the same expected points per shot as shooting 50% from 2. So I reflexively would rather watch a guy hit 35% from 3 and miss more total shots than see a guy shoot 45% on nothing but elbow jumpers. Even though I'm seeing more misses, I feel like I'm watching better basketball.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 15:34

DWags wrote:Call me a thug loving non purest, but I loved the Pistons style of basketball. I think I"ve already said it, but I loved the thought of people understanding they can take this layup, but please know we aren't going to let you take it easy. I honestly don't believe I've watched a 4 quarter basketball game since the bad boys. I've watched parts of them, I've watched the endings, but I haven't watched a whole game. I'll also tell you this, Steph Curry, couldn't hold I. Thomas's jock strap. Thomas or Dumars would also lock him down on Defense. They'd pick him up at half court and good luck trying to score after that. I dom't need 130 points a game. I know I'm probably way in the minority here. But I just liked the pistons style. And they all had skill too. Thehy were great basketball players on offense too. (Maybe not Rodman). That team could win championships in today's games. Multiple. (BTW, I'm not even a pistons fan. I just liked watching them back then)

This is an awful take. Have you seen Steph's handles? Have you seen how he moves off ball? Good luck denying him the ball for 48 minutes.

Steph doesn't get the respect he deserves. That's a bad motherfucker. Unanimous MVP.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 15:35

steveschneider wrote:
DWags wrote:Call me a thug loving non purest, but I loved the Pistons style of basketball. I think I"ve already said it, but I loved the thought of people understanding they can take this layup, but please know we aren't going to let you take it easy. I honestly don't believe I've watched a 4 quarter basketball game since the bad boys. I've watched parts of them, I've watched the endings, but I haven't watched a whole game. I'll also tell you this, Steph Curry, couldn't hold I. Thomas's jock strap. Thomas or Dumars would also lock him down on Defense. They'd pick him up at half court and good luck trying to score after that. I dom't need 130 points a game. I know I'm probably way in the minority here. But I just liked the pistons style. And they all had skill too. Thehy were great basketball players on offense too. (Maybe not Rodman). That team could win championships in today's games. Multiple. (BTW, I'm not even a pistons fan. I just liked watching them back then)

I miss the old school post up moves, back to the basket and two bigs battling for position. Kevin McChale I sure did hate him but his foot work was unbelievable to watch. I also caught clips of the Rockets vs Magic series...Hakeem Olajuwon. Holy shit that guy could play. Unbelievable moves in the paint and great shots from 10 feet out from the basket. That is stuff I'd love to see the league get back into the game. Maybe the answer is to remove the corner three.

Put me down as not missing post ups at all. That shit is boring.

by Heathens '87 2020-05-05, 15:52

Cameron wrote:

I think the right shots are being encouraged now, mostly. It's gonna be rarer and rarer for guys who can't shoot to stick in the league, no matter how good their other skills. I generally think that's a positive development.

With some more reflection, I have realized that the game seems more open now. Better spacing, less clutter in the paint. I also prefer seeing lots of passes trying to find the open man. That's more compelling to me than watching Patrick Ewing post up or watching a Carmelo Anthony type just run isos every possession.

Part of it is also the analytics aspect and the way we are conditioned to think about basketball now. Part of me always cringes when a guy takes a long 2, even if it goes in. The math is just inescapable. Shooting 33% from 3 has the same expected points per shot as shooting 50% from 2. So I reflexively would rather watch a guy hit 35% from 3 and miss more total shots than see a guy shoot 45% on nothing but elbow jumpers. Even though I'm seeing more misses, I feel like I'm watching better basketball.

The game is more open. My issue is there are rather consistently 2 players who are just spotting up at the line waiting for a kick-out who are absolutely no threat to take that pass, drive to the lane or look for a mid-range jumper. This is what I mean by the NBA becoming largely a 3-on-3 game. I whole-heartedly agree that any shot close to the 3-point line needs to be behind that line for the potential gain. Makes no sense. But promote ball movement and shot selection.

The ESPN article linked has some solid ideas to balance the needs. What I'd support as initial steps - keep the line at 23'9" and eliminate the 22" feet corners. The percentages from the corner are much higher given the shorter distance and it encourages spotting up. Second is implement a 3-second 3-point line violation where you have to cross over that line. Force players to move. What you have to fix is the idea that shooting 33% from the 3-point line is equal to 50% from anywhere else. Lessen that percentage to make it truly rewarding to be an elite shooter.

Our biggest difference is that I don't think it's watching better basketball to see players missing more shots. That's just a quality over quantity opinion.....

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2020-05-05, 15:53

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

cool it Cameron. He's posting good stuff about sports. As of late when there's good sports discussion there's a hot head coming around trying to throw a wrench into the flow of discussion.

Yes, he's posting and I'm responding to his posts. That's how conversation works, you fucking dipshit.

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2020-05-05, 15:53

The Bad Boys are one of my favorite teams of all times. But that was a long time ago. I'm on Team Cam on this one. I enjoy the shit out of today's NBA. I was probably too young to understand a lot of what was going on on the floor in the late 80's.

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 16:05

Heathens '87 wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I think the right shots are being encouraged now, mostly. It's gonna be rarer and rarer for guys who can't shoot to stick in the league, no matter how good their other skills. I generally think that's a positive development.

With some more reflection, I have realized that the game seems more open now. Better spacing, less clutter in the paint. I also prefer seeing lots of passes trying to find the open man. That's more compelling to me than watching Patrick Ewing post up or watching a Carmelo Anthony type just run isos every possession.

Part of it is also the analytics aspect and the way we are conditioned to think about basketball now. Part of me always cringes when a guy takes a long 2, even if it goes in. The math is just inescapable. Shooting 33% from 3 has the same expected points per shot as shooting 50% from 2. So I reflexively would rather watch a guy hit 35% from 3 and miss more total shots than see a guy shoot 45% on nothing but elbow jumpers. Even though I'm seeing more misses, I feel like I'm watching better basketball.

The game is more open. My issue is there are rather consistently 2 players who are just spotting up at the line waiting for a kick-out who are absolutely no threat to take that pass, drive to the lane or look for a mid-range jumper. This is what I mean by the NBA becoming largely a 3-on-3 game. I whole-heartedly agree that any shot close to the 3-point line needs to be behind that line for the potential gain. Makes no sense. But promote ball movement and shot selection.

The ESPN article linked has some solid ideas to balance the needs. What I'd support as initial steps - keep the line at 23'9" and eliminate the 22" feet corners. The percentages from the corner are much higher given the shorter distance and it encourages spotting up. Second is implement a 3-second 3-point line violation where you have to cross over that line. Force players to move. What you have to fix is the idea that shooting 33% from the 3-point line is equal to 50% from anywhere else. Lessen that percentage to make it truly rewarding to be an elite shooter.

Our biggest difference is that I don't think it's watching better basketball to see players missing more shots. That's just a quality over quantity opinion......

I would definitely support moving the line back. The only thing that gives me pause about eliminating the corner three is that then the corners become wasted space that nobody will occupy, and the lane might clog back up. Also, it would be jarring visually, at least at first. I would almost prefer they widen the court by a few feet, but that might not be doable with the existing arenas and whatnot.

I don't know how I feel about 3 second violation type rules for the 3 point line, more whistles are bad.

Also, it's not really possible to "fix is the idea that shooting 33% from the 3-point line is equal to 50% from anywhere else." That math ain't changing, the only real recourse is to make 3 pointers difficult enough that shooting 33% or better becomes nearly impossible.

by **DWags** 2020-05-05, 16:21

Cameron wrote:
DWags wrote:Call me a thug loving non purest, but I loved the Pistons style of basketball. I think I"ve already said it, but I loved the thought of people understanding they can take this layup, but please know we aren't going to let you take it easy. I honestly don't believe I've watched a 4 quarter basketball game since the bad boys. I've watched parts of them, I've watched the endings, but I haven't watched a whole game. I'll also tell you this, Steph Curry, couldn't hold I. Thomas's jock strap. Thomas or Dumars would also lock him down on Defense. They'd pick him up at half court and good luck trying to score after that. I dom't need 130 points a game. I know I'm probably way in the minority here. But I just liked the pistons style. And they all had skill too. Thehy were great basketball players on offense too. (Maybe not Rodman). That team could win championships in today's games. Multiple. (BTW, I'm not even a pistons fan. I just liked watching them back then)

This is an awful take. Have you seen Steph's handles? Have you seen how he moves off ball? Good luck denying him the ball for 48 minutes.

Steph doesn't get the respect he deserves. That's a bad motherfucker. Unanimous MVP.

Meh, Im not denying his greatness, I just doubt he could do that with a couple of elbows to the noggin during the game. I don't think the Pistons defense gets enough credit. They played it pretty damn good. Would we have today's flagrant fouls rule?

by **Cameron** 2020-05-05, 16:31

DWags wrote:
Cameron wrote:

This is an awful take. Have you seen Steph's handles? Have you seen how he moves off ball? Good luck denying him the ball for 48 minutes.

Steph doesn't get the respect he deserves. That's a bad motherfucker. Unanimous MVP.

Meh, Im not denying his greatness, I just doubt he could do that with a couple of elbows to the noggin during the game. I don't think the Pistons defense gets enough credit. They played it pretty damn good. Would we have today's flagrant fouls rule?

Elbows to the head would not be allowed. If that's what you have to do to stop Steph, you're not utilizing superior basketball skills, and it's also not a very impressive accomplishment. I don't watch basketball to see who the best MMA fighter is. That's definitely not the spirit of the game.

by **steveschneider** 2020-05-05, 16:40

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I miss the old school post up moves, back to the basket and two bigs battling for position. Kevin McChale I sure did hate him but his foot work was unbelievable to watch. I also caught clips of the Rockets vs Magic series...Hakeem Olajuwon. Holy shit that guy could play. Unbelievable moves in the paint and great shots from 10 feet out from the basket. That is stuff I'd love to see the league get back into the game. Maybe the answer is to remove the corner three.

Put me down as not missing post ups at all. That shit is boring.

Malone vs Rodman, Shaq vs Hakeem, The Chief vs Laimbeer, Duncan vs Nowitzki. That’s all prime time entertainment right there.

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