Re: THE Game thread! Boo Buie is still playing!

by **Trapper Gus** 2022-12-05, 13:23

This was what we expected before the team started playing. The pre-season fooled us all a bit.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-05, 14:22

Trapper Gus wrote:This was what we expected before the team started playing. The pre-season fooled us all a bit.

Yeah, this team never had the horses for whatever reason. Close game against the zags and beating Kentucky blinded us short term. Long term we are average, again.

Feels like ages ago the football and basketball programs were near the top of their respective leagues. Ebbs and flows i guess.

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-05, 15:07

We lost to Northwestern at home last season too. Just getting the bad loss out of the way early. Win at Penn State, get Malik healthy and we're back on track.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-05, 15:29

NigelUno wrote:We lost to Northwestern at home last season too. Just getting the bad loss out of the way early. Win at Penn State, get Malik healthy and we're back on track.

Was last season a success or something? Interesting comparison.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-05, 15:33

The program needs NBA star level talent.

by **Motown Spartan** 2022-12-05, 15:39

steveschneider wrote:The program needs NBA star level talent.

Something we’re rarely had. Fucking Steve….

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-05, 16:09

Motown Spartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:The program needs NBA star level talent.

Something we’re rarely had. Fucking Steve….

We’re had Magic Johnson, Steve Smith, Sam Vincent, Morris Peterson, Draymond Green, Gary Harris…

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 16:32

steveschneider wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

Something we’re rarely had. Fucking Steve….

We’re had Magic Johnson, Steve Smith, Sam Vincent, Morris Peterson, Draymond Green, Gary Harris…

Vincent, Mo Pete and Harris hardly qualify as NBA stars.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-05, 16:35

steveschneider wrote:The program needs NBA star level talent.

They also need to score more than the other team! Back to you in the studio, Bob Sakimano.

by **Motown Spartan** 2022-12-05, 17:07

steveschneider wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

Something we’re rarely had. Fucking Steve….

We’re had Magic Johnson, Steve Smith, Sam Vincent, Morris Peterson, Draymond Green, Gary Harris…

I appreciate you proving my point.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 17:21

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
steveschneider wrote:The program needs NBA star level talent.

They also need to score more than the other team! Back to you in the studio, Bob Sakimano.

This will be in the second segment of the Fucking Steve Sports Talk Radio show. Third segment will be all about modern offense. Podcast available later tonight titled: John Calipari, greatest of all time?

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-05, 17:22

Motown Spartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

We’re had Magic Johnson, Steve Smith, Sam Vincent, Morris Peterson, Draymond Green, Gary Harris…

I appreciate you proving my point.

I didn’t say nba all star I said star. I’d consider an nba star anyone that has had a lengthy career in the nba. All the guys I listed fit that criteria. What ever you want to call the players I listed is fine with me but that’s the type of talent you need to win.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-05, 17:25

duffy munn wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

They also need to score more than the other team! Back to you in the studio, Bob Sakimano.

This will be in the second segment of the Fucking Steve Sports Talk Radio show. Third segment will be all about modern offense. Podcast available later tonight titled: John Calipari, greatest of all time?

The team needs better talent Duffy. NBA star talent. Not G league talent. NBA star talent.

by **Motown Spartan** 2022-12-05, 17:32

steveschneider wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

I appreciate you proving my point.

I didn’t say nba all star I said star. I’d consider an nba star anyone that has had a lengthy career in the nba. All the guys I listed fit that criteria. What ever you want to call the players I listed is fine with me but that’s the type of talent you need to win.

Ok. But that’s not a long list.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 17:32

steveschneider wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

I appreciate you proving my point.

I didn’t say nba all star I said star. I’d consider an nba star anyone that has had a lengthy career in the nba. All the guys I listed fit that criteria. What ever you want to call the players I listed is fine with me but that’s the type of talent you need to win.

Maybe amend your statement to NBA player rather than star Steve. Then go back and look at all of Izzo's final four teams and look for bonafide NBA stars. Because the list begins and ends with Draymond Green and Zach Randolph. And neither was close to the best player on their final four teams.

by AvgMSUJoe 2022-12-05, 17:34

DWags wrote:Malik Hall plays we win. I fear our bigs are going to get chewed up in conference. Cooper and kohler looked lost on defense and definitely looked way to weak to compete for more than just a few minutes at a time game is too fast for them right now.

Here's hoping the next couple weeks of practice gets them ready... they both fumbled away layups last night.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 17:37

Motown Spartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I didn’t say nba all star I said star. I’d consider an nba star anyone that has had a lengthy career in the nba. All the guys I listed fit that criteria. What ever you want to call the players I listed is fine with me but that’s the type of talent you need to win.

Ok. But that’s not a long list.

We've certainly had a lot of NBA players under Izzo. Only a few would qualify as stars. Although I think currently JJJ has a chance and so did Miles until.......

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-05, 17:39

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
NigelUno wrote:We lost to Northwestern at home last season too. Just getting the bad loss out of the way early. Win at Penn State, get Malik healthy and we're back on track.

Was last season a success or something? Interesting comparison.

We waited until the middle of January to have the Northwestern bad loss last season. Just saying we're getting it out of the way early this year.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 18:09

steveschneider wrote:
duffy munn wrote:

This will be in the second segment of the Fucking Steve Sports Talk Radio show. Third segment will be all about modern offense. Podcast available later tonight titled: John Calipari, greatest of all time?

The team needs better talent Duffy. NBA star talent. Not G league talent. NBA star talent.

You mean G league talent like Cash and Denzel? Cause I would be good with that.

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-05, 18:30

duffy munn wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

The team needs better talent Duffy. NBA star talent. Not G league talent. NBA star talent.

You mean G league talent like Cash and Denzel? Cause I would be good with that.

Gabe's playing in the G League right now.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-05, 18:48

NigelUno wrote:
duffy munn wrote:

You mean G league talent like Cash and Denzel? Cause I would be good with that.

Gabe's playing in the G League right now.

Not the best example Nigel

by **Motown Spartan** 2022-12-05, 21:30

The best players that have played under Izzo, on his very best teams, have had completely lackluster NBA careers.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-06, 00:11

Motown Spartan wrote:The best players that have played under Izzo, on his very best teams, have had completely lackluster NBA careers.

The best player on the best team was Mateen and he is a great example. To some extent so is Mo Pete who had a far better NBA career than Cleaves.

That's 2 out of the 3 Izzo players in the rafters. Ironically Draymond was the best pro but really never the best player on the best teams he played on at MSU.

The next 2 to go up in the rafters are Denzel and Cash. DV's NBA career was ok but appears to be over. Cash never really had one.
The moral of the story is Izzo has won big without future NBA stars.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-06, 01:42

izzo has won big without future nba stars, has done more with less, but his teams the past few years are far too "less"

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-06, 07:57

duffy munn wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Gabe's playing in the G League right now.

Not the best example Nigel

That’s kind of my point. You can get in arguments all day long about what we need (and argue semantics).
Just look at last year, we were 2-3 possessions away from knocking off a team with NBA stars (or at least 1). We needed another scorer. Whether defined as an NBA star, NBA player, or just a great college player. We needed 1 more guy. 1 player who understands the modern offense.

by **Trapper Gus** 2022-12-06, 08:00

NigelUno wrote:
duffy munn wrote:

Not the best example Nigel

That’s kind of my point. You can get in arguments all day long about what we need (and argue semantics).
Just look at last year, we were 2-3 possessions away from knocking off a team with NBA stars (or at least 1). We needed another scorer. Whether defined as an NBA star, NBA player, or just a great college player. We needed 1 more guy. 1 player who understands the modern offense.

Maybe start with having all the people we have healthy enough to play?

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-06, 08:08

Trapper Gus wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

That’s kind of my point. You can get in arguments all day long about what we need (and argue semantics).
Just look at last year, we were 2-3 possessions away from knocking off a team with NBA stars (or at least 1). We needed another scorer. Whether defined as an NBA star, NBA player, or just a great college player. We needed 1 more guy. 1 player who understands the modern offense.

Maybe start with having all the people we have healthy enough to play?

Sure. I think we beat Northwestern with Hall. But, some people might argue we should be able to beat Northwestern even down 1 starter.

by **NigelUno** 2022-12-06, 10:56

How important having a player picked in the first round of the NBA Draft has been to NCAA Tournament champions

45 of 45 title-winners have produced at least one top 30 pick (which equates to a current day first-round pick).

Of those 45 national champions since the merger:

37 suited up multiple first-round selections.
36 produced a first-round pick in the NBA Draft immediately following their national championship (i.e. 2021 Baylor in the 2021 NBA Draft)
36 fielded a future top 10 NBA Draft pick. That includes a 27-of-30 run from 1976-2005.
24 featured at least one top five selection.
Eight starred No. 1 overall picks. This hasn't been as prevalent of late; from 1976-1991, national championship teams yielded seven top picks. There's been just one since, Kentucky's Anthony Davis in 2012.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-06, 12:13

duffy munn wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

The team needs better talent Duffy. NBA star talent. Not G league talent. NBA star talent.

You mean G league talent like Cash and Denzel? Cause I would be good with that.

I wouldn't consider Denzel G League talent he's played 256 games in the league. Here's a look at the NBA Star talent on each of Izzo's final four runs.

1999 Morris Peterson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell
2000 Final Four Run Morris Peterson, Jason Richardson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell (five years in the NBA)
2001 Jason Richardson, Zach Randolph, Charlie Bell
2005 Shannon Brown, Maurice Ager, Paul Davis
2009 Draymond Green
2010 Draymond Green, Adreian Payne
2015 Forbes, Valentine
2019 Xavier Tillman

I think there's a fallacy among Spartan fans that Izzo does more with less which there is some truth to that, but to really earn the title Mr. March he's doing it with high level NBA caliber talent. If you aren't seeing high caliber NBA talent on the MSU team then he isn't likely to make a deep March run.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-06, 12:56

To Steve’s point I’m not sure there is an nba player on the current roster.

by **Motown Spartan** 2022-12-06, 13:13

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:To Steve’s point I’m not sure there is an nba player on the current roster.

Aikens maybe. Kohler or Cooper might be. Too young right now. We've been the team to land the sure fire one and done or instant impact NBA star player though. Which is how I interpreted his original post.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-06, 13:23

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:To Steve’s point I’m not sure there is an nba player on the current roster.

We probably need a player capable of at minimum playing 82 games in the league to have a chance at a run. I'm not seeing it either.

Paul Davis 82 NBA games played
Maurice Ager 82 NBA games played
Mateen Cleaves 167 NBA games played
Xavier Tillman 123 NBA Games Played (so far and still going).

The one sore spot in Izzos coaching career imo is not being able to muster up a run in 2017. He had a team with Xavier Tillman, Miles Bridges, Jaren Jackson Jr. and Cassius Winston and had a Calipari level fizzle out in the NCAA tournament. Maybe having too much NBA talent hurts your chances as well.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-06, 14:50

steveschneider wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:To Steve’s point I’m not sure there is an nba player on the current roster.

We probably need a player capable of at minimum playing 82 games in the league to have a chance at a run. I'm not seeing it either.

Paul Davis 82 NBA games played
Maurice Ager 82 NBA games played
Mateen Cleaves 167 NBA games played
Xavier Tillman 123 NBA Games Played (so far and still going).

The one sore spot in Izzos coaching career imo is not being able to muster up a run in 2017. He had a team with Xavier Tillman, Miles Bridges, Jaren Jackson Jr. and Cassius Winston and had a Calipari level fizzle out in the NCAA tournament. Maybe having too much NBA talent hurts your chances as well.

Think the data answers why 2017 wasn't a successful team.

The stat for Izzo was if a player stays four years they make it to a Final Four. Most of the MSU teams I listed feature a future NBA talent that can cross the 80 game threshold in their career and are upper classmen in their senior or junior years.

2009 they had future HOF talent with Draymond Green and he's good enough to be a solid contributor on a dynasty NBA team. If Bridges or JJ Jr stayed three four years I like their chances to go to a final or final fours.

by **duffy munn** 2022-12-06, 15:01

steveschneider wrote:
duffy munn wrote:

You mean G league talent like Cash and Denzel? Cause I would be good with that.

I wouldn't consider Denzel G League talent he's played 256 games in the league. Here's a look at the NBA Star talent on each of Izzo's final four runs.

1999 Morris Peterson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell
2000 Final Four Run Morris Peterson, Jason Richardson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell (five years in the NBA)
2001 Jason Richardson, Zach Randolph, Charlie Bell
2005 Shannon Brown, Maurice Ager, Paul Davis
2009 Draymond Green
2010 Draymond Green, Adreian Payne
2015 Forbes, Valentine
2019 Xavier Tillman

I think there's a fallacy among Spartan fans that Izzo does more with less which there is some truth to that, but to really earn the title Mr. March he's doing it with high level NBA caliber talent. If you aren't seeing high caliber NBA talent on the MSU team then he isn't likely to make a deep March run.

Again Steve, Draymond and Zach and maybe J Rich could be considered stars. The rest played in the NBA. If you drop the star nonsense I will let this go.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-06, 15:19

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:izzo has won big without future nba stars, has done more with less, but his teams the past few years are far too "less"

My data table says otherwise. Izzo needs NBA talent. I'm forecasting we are probably 2-3 years away from another final final four run. His team next year is going to need some time to develop but it is looking promising he's getting NBA talent in his next haul.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-06, 15:22

duffy munn wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

I wouldn't consider Denzel G League talent he's played 256 games in the league. Here's a look at the NBA Star talent on each of Izzo's final four runs.

1999 Morris Peterson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell
2000 Final Four Run Morris Peterson, Jason Richardson, Mateen Cleaves, Charlie Bell (five years in the NBA)
2001 Jason Richardson, Zach Randolph, Charlie Bell
2005 Shannon Brown, Maurice Ager, Paul Davis
2009 Draymond Green
2010 Draymond Green, Adreian Payne
2015 Forbes, Valentine
2019 Xavier Tillman

I think there's a fallacy among Spartan fans that Izzo does more with less which there is some truth to that, but to really earn the title Mr. March he's doing it with high level NBA caliber talent. If you aren't seeing high caliber NBA talent on the MSU team then he isn't likely to make a deep March run.

Again Steve, Draymond and Zach and maybe J Rich could be considered stars. The rest played in the NBA. If you drop the star nonsense I will let this go.

We are debating semantics here, and I'll take off the star...but the people I listed enjoyed celebrity status at one point and that imo is a star. It's my opinion and I respect yours as well.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-06, 16:07

Yeah I’m going to exit the conversation as it seems like you are stuck on calling Xavier Tillman, Bryn forbes, and valentine nba stars THE Game thread! Boo Buie is still playing! - Page 2 502811600

THE Game thread! Boo Buie is still playing! - Page 2 502811600

Nba talent sure. Stars? Not even close.

Have a great day, Steve!

by **Trapper Gus** 2022-12-07, 08:00

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Yeah I’m going to exit the conversation as it seems like you are stuck on calling Xavier Tillman, Bryn forbes, and valentine nba stars

Nba talent sure. Stars? Not even close.

Have a great day, Steve!

He did stop calling them stars in his las post.

by **steveschneider** 2022-12-07, 08:16

Trapper Gus wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Yeah I’m going to exit the conversation as it seems like you are stuck on calling Xavier Tillman, Bryn forbes, and valentine nba stars

Nba talent sure. Stars? Not even close.

Have a great day, Steve!

He did stop calling them stars in his las post.

If that one opinion is that off putting to him then it’s probably for the best. I stand by my analysis.

by **Trapper Gus** 2022-12-07, 08:24

steveschneider wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

He did stop calling them stars in his las post.

If that one opinion is that off putting to him then it’s probably for the best. I stand by my analysis.

I agree with him on that and with you that most successful (all?) higher level college teams have some NBA potential players. However, sometimes they are considered NBA potential because of the team record in college, so that analysis is a double-edged sword.

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