"You're going to see acts that defy humanity"

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

You know sometimes it’s ok to just admit that you’re dead fucking wrong.

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

The problem is exponentially bigger than training.

I’m willing to bet these mega training facilities are partially funded with “use it or lose it” Covid money.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

The problem is exponentially bigger than training.

I had two ex football players become cops. One of them said to me he just likes "Fucking people up". Yep. Wyane county sheriff. Loved the action and the shit that goes down like you saw in the video.( I refused to watch it). Thing is, Nichols was killed. There are litterally 1000's of people who are just "fucked up" by rouge cops. But I'malmost hesitant to say "rouge" I'm thinking way over 50% of all police forces have this kids attitude.

I also had some ex students that are unbelievable cops. From doing community service work, to finding shelters for some of these hard ass kids on the street, and I'm sure they don't just want to "fuck people up"

Anyway, I don't know how you get rid of that attitude in departments. I'm 61. It won't happen in my life.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

You know sometimes it’s ok to just admit that you’re dead fucking wrong.

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

Considering policing is regulated at the state and local level, I am willing to bet there is more appetite for reform among the public in some local jurisdictions than you’re willing to admit.

The MAGA influence you cite probably isn’t that big in the city of Memphis, Chicago, NYC, etc.

Turtleneck wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

Considering policing is regulated at the state and local level, I am willing to bet there is more appetite for reform among the public in some local jurisdictions than you’re willing to admit.

The MAGA influence you cite probably isn’t that big in the city of Memphis, Chicago, NYC, etc.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

The problem is exponentially bigger than training.

Which I pointed out in my first post (I think it was the first one I did) in this thread.

However, the solution, at the root of police behavior, is training.

The root cause is an acceptance by the establishment of the issue and the solution, which involves the police accepting this, as some do.

TN wrote:Considering policing is regulated at the state and local level, I am willing to bet there is more appetite for reform among the public in some local jurisdictions than you’re willing to admit.

The MAGA influence you cite probably isn’t that big in the city of Memphis, Chicago, NYC, etc.

The links I posted above support that idea.

The question of MAGA influence comes into the Police themselves, and the command structures within the Police. Examples, Portland, Oregon & Seattle Washington, have shown that even very liberal cities still might have, and do have in these examples, police departments full of MAGA attitudes.

If only they had been trained to not hold the guy up while a different cop beats him to death this all could have been avoided :( oh well next time

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If only they had been trained to not hold the guy up while a different cop beats him to death this all could have been avoided :( oh well next time

Exactly.

No one can change what has already happened. The question is how it does systemically be changed so it stops happening, while still maintaining policing, as most people don't seem to want to give up having police.

Trapper I think you need to get it out of your head that training makes everything run better. We’re not building a lineshaft conveyor here.

Stop training officers like warriors

Part of the trend of militarizing police includes training them like they're in a warzone.

That culture is embodied by the teachings of Dave Grossman, an Army-veteran-turned-police-trainer who describes himself as a "killologist."

"He doesn't see the separation between Fallujah and Ferguson," Atkinson told Insider. "And so he thinks of the police as the first line of defense to Al Qaeda, and there's no difference."

What does he teach the hundreds of police departments he's instructed since 1995? "Killology," a doctrine that dispels with the idea that police should feel shame for killing Americans.

"Are you emotionally, spiritually, psychologically prepared to snuff out a human life in defense of innocent lives?" Grossman asked one group of trainees. "If you can't make that decision, you need to find another job."

According to a 2016 survey, police departments spend an average of 58 hours on gun training, 49 hours on defensive tactics, and eight hours on de-escalation, crisis intervention, and electronic control weapons like Tasers.

Communities United Against Police Brutality railed against the "warrior-cop" style of policing.

"Officers routinely hear that 'every single traffic stop could be, might be, the last stop you ever make in your life,'" the organization wrote in a 2018 pamphlet shared with Insider. "Awakening officers' fear that their work continually puts them in lethal danger, Grossman begins cultivating fear of the public and a readiness to kill."

https://www.insider.com/police-training-problems-how-to-fix-experts-2020-6

It's not the only issue, but it can be a big part of the problem.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If only they had been trained to not hold the guy up while a different cop beats him to death this all could have been avoided :( oh well next time

True. If only they had been trained not to execute people in the street. This is so far beyond training. Training is just a fucking excuse at this point. The whole concept of policing needs to be revisited.

Turtleneck wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If only they had been trained to not hold the guy up while a different cop beats him to death this all could have been avoided :( oh well next time

True. If only they had been trained not to execute people in the street. This is so far beyond training. Training is just a fucking excuse at this point. The whole concept of policing needs to be revisited.

Well I don’t know we trained them not to kneel on people’s necks a few years ago, and see! They didn’t.

Turtleneck wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If only they had been trained to not hold the guy up while a different cop beats him to death this all could have been avoided :( oh well next time

True. If only they had been trained not to execute people in the street. This is so far beyond training. Training is just a fucking excuse at this point. The whole concept of policing needs to be revisited.

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

True. If only they had been trained not to execute people in the street. This is so far beyond training. Training is just a fucking excuse at this point. The whole concept of policing needs to be revisited.

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I am not having trouble wrapping my head around anything. The real problem here is your addiction to policing. You can't imagine there is an inherent problem with the entire institution and many of the people who pursue police careers. You have to reduce it to training like that will solve everything, as if this "attitude" arises only from training.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

True. If only they had been trained not to execute people in the street. This is so far beyond training. Training is just a fucking excuse at this point. The whole concept of policing needs to be revisited.

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I think we all realize that, which is why we're not deluding ourselves into thinking that sinking millions upon millions more in training is a "solution" to the actual problem, when the training is as deficient as some of the links you yourself shared have outlined.

We need to end qualified immunity, we need a national registry or database for cops who are fired for misconduct in one jurisdiction so that they can't just go to the next town or county over and keep being a shitty cop, we need more resources devoted to tackling poverty and mental illness, on and on and on. There are a thousand better uses for our resources than "more training."

Oh, and we ought to abolish police unions, perhaps the only type of union I oppose.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I think we all realize that, which is why we're not deluding ourselves into thinking that sinking millions upon millions more in training is a "solution" to the actual problem, when the training is as deficient as some of the links you yourself shared have outlined.

We need to end qualified immunity, we need a national registry or database for cops who are fired for misconduct in one jurisdiction so that they can't just go to the next town or county over and keep being a shitty cop, we need more resources devoted to tackling poverty and mental illness, on and on and on. There are a thousand better uses for our resources than "more training."

Don’t forget that internal investigations mean the same thing as when my office was investigating who keeps dropping massive bombs in the office toilet- you can get reprimanded and shame but that’s it. If it’s a question of if you did something illegal it needs to be investigated by a non affiliated person

Turtleneck wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I am not having trouble wrapping my head around anything. The real problem here is your addiction to policing. You can't imagine there is an inherent problem with the entire institution and many of the people who pursue police careers. You have to reduce it to training like that will solve everything, as if this "attitude" arises only from training.

You are the ones reducing it to training. My premise is that it cannot be solved without some cooperation of everyone involved.

Training is part of the solution, IMO. Of course, it has to be training that is directed at resolving poor policing practices.

Turtleneck wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I am not having trouble wrapping my head around anything. The real problem here is your addiction to policing. You can't imagine there is an inherent problem with the entire institution and many of the people who pursue police careers. You have to reduce it to training like that will solve everything, as if this "attitude" arises only from training.

You are the ones reducing it to training. My premise is that it cannot be solved without some cooperation of everyone involved.

Training is part of the solution, IMO. Of course, it has to be training that is directed at resolving poor policing practices.

Cameron wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I think we all realize that, which is why we're not deluding ourselves into thinking that sinking millions upon millions more in training is a "solution" to the actual problem, when the training is as deficient as some of the links you yourself shared have outlined.

We need to end qualified immunity, we need a national registry or database for cops who are fired for misconduct in one jurisdiction so that they can't just go to the next town or county over and keep being a shitty cop, we need more resources devoted to tackling poverty and mental illness, on and on and on. There are a thousand better uses for our resources than "more training."

Sure, more of the same training isn't a solution, forsure. More proper training is.

Some of the other items in your post probably have merit.

Trapper: Police need better training. That will take care of the problem.

Everybody else: That’s not even close to being enough to solve this problem. There is so much wrong with the concept of policing in this country, including classism and racism and refusing to ever be accountable. The problem is so much worse than training.

Trapper: You’re reducing everything to training!

Also Trapper: Better training would solve the problem and these lovable overgrown puppy dog cops would stop executing people in the street if they just had better training.

That’s some serious police worship.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Something something bridge to sell you something something

Also just going to flat out ignore that you’re saying “we’ll just have to accept the unnecessary murders they keep committing until they decide they are too embarrassed about the murdering they keep doing”

I'm looking at the political realities, and I am not saying we don't need to try to make things better.

There is a large, and it may be a majority of the population, group that thinks everything is just fine the way it is.

Therre is a large minority of the population, the MAGA crowd, who is against any change to the police and who believe that these murders are a good thing. (Ugg)

Ignoring that completely is poor politics.

Then there is the fact that the Police Unions are politically quite powerful, and most politicians who gain office are not going to mess with them.

Thus, the "change from within the system" conclusion, as the most likely solution, and we are seeing some of that.  The police being retrained to be less trigger happy is happening in some departments.

We don't have a magic wand to change what is.

First time I mentioned training, pretty sure I never said it was the only thing that needed to be done, but you all are welcome to quote where I did, so I can say I didn't mean it that way.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

You know sometimes it’s ok to just admit that you’re dead fucking wrong.

I accept your admission /s

What is going on here is a bunch of you all have been riled up by another example of what happens when the police are trained to believe that everyone who isn't a police person is the enemy.

The current police training is the logical problem, and you all seem to be refusing to accept that.

There's power tripping going on for sure, but i would think a good deal of the trouble with policing is fear-based.  As in what others have said here, they are walking around seeing enemies all over the place because stuff happens and they get scared out of their own gourd and switch into self preservation mode.  When someone is in fight mode out of fear, you can easily get crazy situations of brutality.

Training, as it happens, can be used to overcome these more primitive urges.  It is my belief that no cop should inflict a killing blow, or an action that kills unless there is proof positive of a deadly action being taken against them.  I.E.  They do not get to shoot and kill a person because they *Think* the person is going to kill them, only when the person is actually trying to kill them.  That means, if they see a weapon on a shady person, that's not a reason to kill.  If they see the weapon and the person is pointing it at them, then sure, defend yourself.  That puts the police at a tactical disadvantage as they are forced to respond to an already deadly threat (i.e. behind the 8 ball), rather than preventing the threat from occurring in the first place.  But IMO that's the job.  It's a shit job, but that's the job.  You are in fact risking your life with that job.  Thus, you may have to over pay a bit to get people to take that risk.  And then you need the training to get to the point of being able to stop your primitive urges to fight at the drop of a dime.  So i agree with you to some extent, we need to dish out the money to get the people and the training in place.  But throwing money at it isn't going to solve it because we all know in the present, the police dept will just invest in crap tons of body armor or RPGs or some shit.  So you need the oversight to spend the money in the right places, the people and intensive training.

I've said it before...the job itself attracts the exact wrong type of people who should never have it. Ex-jocks who want to "fuck people up". Ex-military who are actual trained killers. Wingnut fascists and white supremacists. Closet wife beaters and child abusers. And on and on. These types will never be "trained" to be good cops. Their personal agenda is not to "protect and serve". They are ticking time bombs and they need to be screened out as soon as possible in the hiring/review process. It doesn't take much to get a badge and a gun in this country. And once you've got them, it's very difficult to have them taken away unless you murder somebody in such an irrefutable manner as this.

Personal anecdote: tMrs' ex is a wife beater/child abuser. Short stocky guy with small man syndrome. Complete loser. All the problems in his life are the fault of others. I'm sure you know the type. Has wanted to become a cop for years. This man should never be allowed to have a badge & gun. tMrs' 20+ year old restraining order that she refuses to have rescinded is the only thing standing in his way.

Don’t forget about idiots heat. In addition to the rest of the obvious character flaws, many of them are dumb as shit too

Turtleneck wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

From what I have read about training, and I copied a bit in an above post, you guys are having trouble wrapping your minds around the idea that the police are being trained to view all people who are not police as expendable enemies.

For police trained to this attitude, the training is a major part of the problem.

I am not having trouble wrapping my head around anything. The real problem here is your addiction to policing. You can't imagine there is an inherent problem with the entire institution and many of the people who pursue police careers. You have to reduce it to training like that will solve everything, as if this "attitude" arises only from training.

I'm going to repeat this untile you dunces get it.

I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.

What is see is that you all seem to be fine with the police being trained like they were going into combat in Ukraine /s

Well, you don't seem to see that as a significant part of the problem. (no /s)

Then what else, beyond just training, specifically?

Heat Miser wrote:I've said it before...the job itself attracts the exact wrong type of people who should never have it. Ex-jocks who want to "fuck people up". Ex-military who are actual trained killers. Wingnut fascists and white supremacists. Closet wife beaters and child abusers. And on and on. These types will never be "trained" to be good cops. Their personal agenda is not to "protect and serve". They are ticking time bombs and they need to be screened out as soon as possible in the hiring/review process. It doesn't take much to get a badge and a gun in this country. And once you've got them, it's very difficult to have them taken away unless you murder somebody in such an irrefutable manner as this.

Personal anecdote: tMrs' ex is a wife beater/child abuser. Short stocky guy with small man syndrome. Complete loser. All the problems in his life are the fault of others. I'm sure you know the type. Has wanted to become a cop for years. This man should never be allowed to have a badge & gun. tMrs' 20+ year old restraining order that she refuses to have rescinded is the only thing standing in his way.

I've long believed that military service should all but disqualify someone from become a law enforcement officer. There should be absolutely no correlation with law enforcement training and military training, other than self defense training. I'm no expert though, I do admit. Diffuse, diffuse, diffuse, diffuse, diffuse...I've never seen a situation like this happen where the cops tried to diffuse the situation rather than escalate the tension. 100% of them occur because the mentality that they have to get the 'bad' guy now. Diffuse, let them run, approach with compassion.

Heat Miser wrote:I've said it before...the job itself attracts the exact wrong type of people who should never have it. Ex-jocks who want to "fuck people up". Ex-military who are actual trained killers. Wingnut fascists and white supremacists. Closet wife beaters and child abusers. And on and on. These types will never be "trained" to be good cops. Their personal agenda is not to "protect and serve". They are ticking time bombs and they need to be screened out as soon as possible in the hiring/review process. It doesn't take much to get a badge and a gun in this country. And once you've got them, it's very difficult to have them taken away unless you murder somebody in such an irrefutable manner as this.

Personal anecdote: tMrs' ex is a wife beater/child abuser. Short stocky guy with small man syndrome. Complete loser. All the problems in his life are the fault of others. I'm sure you know the type. Has wanted to become a cop for years. This man should never be allowed to have a badge & gun. tMrs' 20+ year old restraining order that she refuses to have rescinded is the only thing standing in his way.

Agreed that the requirements to become a police officer, set by each state, need to be upgraded.

Requirements for Michigan

These requirements are less than I remember from the 1970's, at least for the State Police, as when, if I remember correctly, a BA is CJ was a requirement to enter the State Police Acadamy.

However, just to point this out, the officers who killed that kid by beating him up were doing what they had been trained to do, they were a unit trained to terrorize the people they were policing..

Motown Spartan wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:I've said it before...the job itself attracts the exact wrong type of people who should never have it. Ex-jocks who want to "fuck people up". Ex-military who are actual trained killers. Wingnut fascists and white supremacists. Closet wife beaters and child abusers. And on and on. These types will never be "trained" to be good cops. Their personal agenda is not to "protect and serve". They are ticking time bombs and they need to be screened out as soon as possible in the hiring/review process. It doesn't take much to get a badge and a gun in this country. And once you've got them, it's very difficult to have them taken away unless you murder somebody in such an irrefutable manner as this.

Personal anecdote: tMrs' ex is a wife beater/child abuser. Short stocky guy with small man syndrome. Complete loser. All the problems in his life are the fault of others. I'm sure you know the type. Has wanted to become a cop for years. This man should never be allowed to have a badge & gun. tMrs' 20+ year old restraining order that she refuses to have rescinded is the only thing standing in his way.

I've long believed that military service should all but disqualify someone from become a law enforcement officer. There should be absolutely no correlation with law enforcement training and military training, other than self defense training. I'm no expert though, I do admit. Diffuse, diffuse, diffuse, diffuse, diffuse...I've never seen a situation like this happen where the cops tried to diffuse the situation rather than escalate the tension. 100% of them occur because the mentality that they have to get the 'bad' guy now. Diffuse, let them run, approach with compassion.

This!

And police training that treats the public as "the enemy" should be banned everywhere.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

I am not having trouble wrapping my head around anything. The real problem here is your addiction to policing. You can't imagine there is an inherent problem with the entire institution and many of the people who pursue police careers. You have to reduce it to training like that will solve everything, as if this "attitude" arises only from training.

I'm going to repeat this untile you dunces get it.

I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.

What is see is that you all seem to be fine with the police being trained like they were going into combat in Ukraine /s

Well, you don't seem to see that as a significant part of the problem. (no /s)

That’s good trapper but you’re on record as saying it should come from within. The current police attitude in general has a culture of self preservation and insulation. A vast majority of change needs to be initiated externally. I’m fine with them having a seat at the table. One seat among at least a dozen….. And Cameron is right. Abolish the union.

kingstonlake wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm going to repeat this untile you dunces get it.

I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.
I am not reducing it only to training.

What is see is that you all seem to be fine with the police being trained like they were going into combat in Ukraine /s

Well, you don't seem to see that as a significant part of the problem. (no /s)

That’s good trapper but you’re on record as saying it should come from within. The current police attitude in general has a culture of self preservation and insulation. A vast majority of change needs to be initiated externally. I’m fine with them having a seat at the table. One seat among at least a dozen….. And Cameron is right. Abolish the union.

I'm on record as saying that without movement from within it isn't going to happen. That is an assessment of the political situation, the parts of which I bullet pointed in the post in which I stated that.

You all can scream all you want on burning things to the ground and starting over, but it really isn't a real-world option, politically.

There are places where the police are being augmented with other public safety officers, such as mental health specialists and these changes are having an impact, where they are being implemented.

Colorado Policing

This is a solution where the police are part of the solution, not road kill.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:I've said it before...the job itself attracts the exact wrong type of people who should never have it. Ex-jocks who want to "fuck people up". Ex-military who are actual trained killers. Wingnut fascists and white supremacists. Closet wife beaters and child abusers. And on and on. These types will never be "trained" to be good cops. Their personal agenda is not to "protect and serve". They are ticking time bombs and they need to be screened out as soon as possible in the hiring/review process. It doesn't take much to get a badge and a gun in this country. And once you've got them, it's very difficult to have them taken away unless you murder somebody in such an irrefutable manner as this.

Personal anecdote: tMrs' ex is a wife beater/child abuser. Short stocky guy with small man syndrome. Complete loser. All the problems in his life are the fault of others. I'm sure you know the type. Has wanted to become a cop for years. This man should never be allowed to have a badge & gun. tMrs' 20+ year old restraining order that she refuses to have rescinded is the only thing standing in his way.

Agreed that the requirements to become a police officer, set by each state, need to be upgraded.

Requirements for Michigan

These requirements are less than I remember from the 1970's, at least for the State Police, as when, if I remember correctly, a BA is CJ was a requirement to enter the State Police Acadamy.

However, just to point this out, the officers who killed that kid by beating him up were doing what they had been trained to do, they were a unit trained to terrorize the people they were policing..

I don't believe that for 1 second. Clearly they were NOT properly "trained" to prevent themselves from becoming a murderous band of lunatics, but they were not actively "trained" to do so. There is no police training manual anywhere that outlines and promotes this sort of behavior. And of course, not a single one of them at any time thought to themselves "hey self. This is wrong. I need to stop it."

Bonus point: If this was a military situation, in Ukraine for example, the actions of these thugs would be a war crime.

Heat Miser wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Agreed that the requirements to become a police officer, set by each state, need to be upgraded.

Requirements for Michigan

These requirements are less than I remember from the 1970's, at least for the State Police, as when, if I remember correctly, a BA is CJ was a requirement to enter the State Police Acadamy.

However, just to point this out, the officers who killed that kid by beating him up were doing what they had been trained to do, they were a unit trained to terrorize the people they were policing..

I don't believe that for 1 second. Clearly they were NOT properly "trained" to prevent themselves from becoming a murderous band of lunatics, but they were not actively "trained" to do so. There is no police training manual anywhere that outlines and promotes this sort of behavior. And of course, not a single one of them at any time thought to themselves "hey self. This is wrong. I need to stop it."

Bonus point: If this was a military situation, in Ukraine for example, the actions of these thugs would be a war crime.

Philly's Police Terror Unit

Memphis Police Terror Unit

One only needs to read a couple of links on these types of units to see what is expected from them.  In unmarked cars & no uniforms, trained to go in, kick ass, and don't take names until afterword. edit - Agreed that these officers went beyond was intended by policy, however, I cannot say that they were doing anything, other than the death, that the police & city government wasn't asking them to do, so, meeting expectations, training or no training.

The police hold the populace hostage with the threat of not doing their jobs. Police unions are terrorist organizations. Everything the right claimed was wrong with the afl/cio is actually wrong with cop unions.

Rocinante wrote:The police hold the populace hostage with the threat of not doing their jobs. Police unions are terrorist organizations. Everything the right claimed was wrong with the afl/cio is actually wrong with cop unions.

The downside of unions are they protect the shittiest among them. But instead of protecting a lazy guy who won’t put a lug nut on in a timely fashion holding up an assembly line , they’re protecting murderers.

kingstonlake wrote:

Rocinante wrote:The police hold the populace hostage with the threat of not doing their jobs. Police unions are terrorist organizations. Everything the right claimed was wrong with the afl/cio is actually wrong with cop unions.

The downside of unions are they protect the shittiest among them. But instead of protecting a lazy guy who won’t put a lug nut on in a timely fashion holding up an assembly line , they’re protecting murderers.

How exactly is a robotic arm lazy?

Turtleneck wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

The downside of unions are they protect the shittiest among them. But instead of protecting a lazy guy who won’t put a lug nut on in a timely fashion holding up an assembly line , they’re protecting murderers.

How exactly is a robotic arm lazy?

How does it pay dues?

Also very true.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Don’t forget about idiots heat. In addition to the rest of the obvious character flaws, many of them are dumb as shit too

Case in point, these Nashville cops. The horrific nature of their brutality has rightly gotten everyone's attention, but beyond that, its like a bunch of Chief Wiggums.

First, in their attempt to pepper spray Nichols, they pepper spray each other.

Then, after the initial stop when Nichols runs, these guys start to chase him and make it about 100 feet before leaving they have to stop and can barely breathe.

Then 2-3 of them can't even hold down and handcuff one skinny guy.

And then there is the whole stupidity of this in the first place. Like, how did they think this would end, even if he didn't die? They know they're wearing body cams. And ok, there's the whole mob mentality thing, but at some point, perhaps when one guy is clubbing a man held down by two others, or when one guy is asking two cops to hold Nichols up so that he can punch him repeatedly, shouldn't it enter someone's head to think, "Hey, you know, we might get in trouble when they see our body cams."

After the incomprehensible nature of the physical brutality, it's shocking just how fucking dumb and incompetent these cops were.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Don’t forget about idiots heat. In addition to the rest of the obvious character flaws, many of them are dumb as shit too

Case in point, these Nashville cops.  The horrific nature of their brutality has rightly gotten everyone's attention, but beyond that, its like a bunch of Chief Wiggums.  

First, in their attempt to pepper spray Nichols, they pepper spray each other.

Then, after the initial stop when Nichols runs, these guys start to chase him and make it about 100 feet before leaving they have to stop and can barely breathe.

Then 2-3 of them can't even hold down and handcuff one skinny guy.

And then there is the whole stupidity of this in the first place.  Like, how did they think this would end, even if he didn't die?  They know they're wearing body cams.  And ok, there's the whole mob mentality thing, but at some point, perhaps when one guy is clubbing a man held down by two others, or when one guy is asking two cops to hold Nichols up so that he can punch him repeatedly, shouldn't it enter someone's head to think, "Hey, you know, we might get in trouble when they see our body cams."

After the incomprehensible nature of the physical brutality, it's shocking just how fucking dumb and incompetent these cops were.

It would seem the police are caught between those who bitch that they aren't controlling crime and those who are pointing out that they are selective in whom they choose to chase.

IMO both sides of the argument have valid points.

The solution, to put squads of police on the streets to be clandestine crime stoppers and giving them the mandate to act on their own caused this problem.  A lack of foresight by those in charge of this led to a predictable outcome.  They didn't set the boundaries, and I suppose it didn't occur to them they needed to.

As for the anger against Unions, some of you guys have eaten up the 50 years of anti-union tropes like candy.  Sure, there is always a built-in conflict between the owners & the workers over what the workers are doing, because the owners always want more, and the workers always want a life outside of work.  In some lines of work, policing being one, it is much too easy for the management to blame the workers when things go south, thus the unions push back to protect the workers.  It will never be a perfect situation; however, we are better off with the unions than without unions, as it creates a balance of power instead of some crazed manager doing something stupid, like these squads in Memphis & elsewhere and throwing the workers under the bus.

Also came across this article about the US Congress doing anything about this today.

Looks like the hang up last time was eliminate "qualified immunity" as the Republicans went to the mattress to keep that in place.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-united-states-government-law-enforcement-memphis-tyre-nichols-cb11cd1ed09de7f2f2689a7fb0f33730