Re: Francis Scott key bridge

by **Jake from State Farm** 29/03/24, 09:54 am

CaptainSlow33 wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

There was a port worker interviewed who said the Dali was having power issues the entire two days it was docked. She said because of those issues it was her opinion that the ship should’ve left in daylight to have a clearer sense of what they were navigating.

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

It doesn't look like it was overloaded:
It can carry the equivalent of almost 10,000 standard-sized metal shipping containers, and at the time of the accident was carrying nearly 4,700 containers

by **Trapper Gus** 29/03/24, 10:40 am

Just read a semi technical blog about how it's motivation engine and the power for everything else are different systems, and that the power for everything else has 4 engine/generators that feed one electrical bus. Guess is a main breaker on that bus tripped.

by **The Pantry** 29/03/24, 11:23 am

Jake from State Farm wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

It doesn't look like it was overloaded:
It can carry the equivalent of almost 10,000 standard-sized metal shipping containers, and at the time of the accident was carrying nearly 4,700 containers

Not sure how that thing could have carried more containers than it was. If they were stacked any higher they'd be blocking view from the pilot house.

by **DWags** 29/03/24, 11:32 am

The Pantry wrote:
Jake from State Farm wrote:

It doesn't look like it was overloaded:
It can carry the equivalent of almost 10,000 standard-sized metal shipping containers, and at the time of the accident was carrying nearly 4,700 containers
Not sure how that thing could have carried more containers than it was. If they were stacked any higher they'd be blocking view from the pilot house.

So it's not tonnage that they max out on but actual cargo? 10,000 standard Cargo containers carrying lead, vs. Carrying paper machete is a whole different weight.

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 12:17 pm

DWags wrote:
The Pantry wrote:
Not sure how that thing could have carried more containers than it was. If they were stacked any higher they'd be blocking view from the pilot house.

So it's not tonnage that they max out on but actual cargo? 10,000 standard Cargo containers carrying lead, vs. Carrying paper machete is a whole different weight.

IMO, only factor the cargo played in the accident was just limiting the stopping time. You could see from the black smoke that the ship was belching out that they were hard on the engines attempting maneuvers to avoid hitting the bridge. The cargo wasn't the reason for the collision, but it didn't help them in trying to avoid it. I'm sure the NTSB report will have more details, but seems like it was all primarily caused by the loss of steering and propulsion at key points that caused the accident.

by **The Pantry** 29/03/24, 12:42 pm

Maybe tugboats should be escorting massive ships under critical bridges without pylon protection. Just a hindsight thought.

by **Heat Miser** 29/03/24, 12:50 pm

CaptainSlow33 wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:I fell down a TikTok rabbit hole of Great Lakes shipping pilots and captains giving their insight into this last night. Most of what they said has already been said here, but it sounds like the crew may have been in the middle of a maneuver to spin the ship around to slow it/steer it out of danger, but ultimately lost power. The steering and lighting for modern ships is on its own backup generator, so the consensus seems to be that the lights of the ship going out may indicate a major problem the crew was dealing with leading up to impact. Since they were on their way out to sea, the harbor's tugs probably wouldn't have been hovering too close, and probably couldn't have gotten into position to push the ship away from the bridge. Sounds like the anchor had been dropped, but the ship was dragging it. Tragic that the construction crew on the bridge didn't have a radio. From the recordings I've heard, one of the officers who had been blocking traffic was getting ready to head out to tell the crew to clear out when the ship hit.

There was a port worker interviewed who said the Dali was having power issues the entire two days it was docked. She said because of those issues it was her opinion that the ship should’ve left in daylight to have a clearer sense of what they were navigating.

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

Most cargo ships are not US flagged. Same with cruise ships. Thus, the US has very limited jurisdiction in safety requirements, inspections, etc.

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 01:21 pm

Heat Miser wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

Most cargo ships are not US flagged. Same with cruise ships. Thus, the US has very limited jurisdiction in safety requirements, inspections, etc.

Great Lakes sailors are saying that that is partially by design. Companies flag their ships in various countries for tax purposes (the Dali was flagged in Sri Lanka), and then staff them with crews from countries like the Philippines and India. As long as they don't stop in 2 US ports consecutively, they don't need to meet US harbor standards for safety. If nothing else, I hope this accident will prompt the government to take action on safety standards for vessels coming in and out of our ports, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

by **Floyd Robertson** 29/03/24, 03:00 pm

[ig]C5G93EAuGuE[/ig]

WTH. Must be something in the water.

by **tGreenWay** 29/03/24, 03:17 pm

CaptainSlow33 wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

There was a port worker interviewed who said the Dali was having power issues the entire two days it was docked. She said because of those issues it was her opinion that the ship should’ve left in daylight to have a clearer sense of what they were navigating.

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

Speaking of overloaded, here’s a chart noting the growth in the size of cargo ships over the years. It’s wild.

Francis Scott key bridge - Page 3 Img_7810

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 03:19 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:

Not saying she was wrong, but it seems like they knew exactly where they were while they were drifting. Even in the daylight, if they lose control of steering and propulsion, it's hard to fight against the current sending them into the pylon. It sounds like the ocean cargo ships are infamous for being overloaded, and operating as cheaply as possible to maximize corporate profits - everything I'm reading seems to point to the Dali (as well as many US-owned, foreign crewed/flagged ships) not being up to the US Coast Guard's standards. I'd say that it's time for our government to act, but I'm sure they are already cashing checks from the shipping companies to do nothing.

Speaking of overloaded, here’s a chart noting the growth in the size of cargo ships over the years. It’s wild.

The VLCS picture gave me anxiety. I saw a video of one of those ships in really rough seas once and it made my hands and feet sweat. I am sure it's more efficient, but it also feels like it wouldn't be more safe.

by **tGreenWay** 29/03/24, 03:39 pm

CaptainSlow33 wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Speaking of overloaded, here’s a chart noting the growth in the size of cargo ships over the years. It’s wild.

The VLCS picture gave me anxiety. I saw a video of one of those ships in really rough seas once and it made my hands and feet sweat. I am sure it's more efficient, but it also feels like it wouldn't be more safe.

The ocean doesn’t mess around. Some of the vids I’ve seen are insane, and I’m certain I’d be puking my guts out if I was onboard.

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 03:41 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:

The VLCS picture gave me anxiety. I saw a video of one of those ships in really rough seas once and it made my hands and feet sweat. I am sure it's more efficient, but it also feels like it wouldn't be more safe.

The ocean doesn’t mess around. Some of the vids I’ve seen are insane, and I’m certain I’d be puking my guts out if I was onboard.

There was a time I had seriously considered enlisting in the Navy or Coast Guard. The internet helped me realize how horrible that idea was for someone like me. I would also puke my guts out of my body, and then probably get washed overboard. I'll experience the ocean from the shore.

by **Cameron** 29/03/24, 03:49 pm

I don't like heights, and depth is just height, from a certain point of view. I stay far away from the ocean.

by **The Pantry** 29/03/24, 03:51 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
CaptainSlow33 wrote:

The VLCS picture gave me anxiety. I saw a video of one of those ships in really rough seas once and it made my hands and feet sweat. I am sure it's more efficient, but it also feels like it wouldn't be more safe.

The ocean doesn’t mess around. Some of the vids I’ve seen are insane, and I’m certain I’d be puking my guts out if I was onboard.

The Great Lakes would be enough to make me heave on a bad day. Went fishing on Keweenaw Bay one time and was terrified.

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 03:54 pm

The Pantry wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

The ocean doesn’t mess around. Some of the vids I’ve seen are insane, and I’m certain I’d be puking my guts out if I was onboard.
The Great Lakes would be enough to make me heave on a bad day. Went fishing on Keweenaw Bay one time and was terrified.

7 years ago we went over to Mackinac Island. I'm nervous on open water on a good day, but a storm had blown through the straits the night before and the water was pretty wild. At one point we took a wave weird, and the window I was sitting next to was completely under water. I love Mackinac Island, but that was the last time I've had any desire to go. At that point when you realize just how far away from land you are...that's too much for me.

by CaptainSlow33 29/03/24, 03:55 pm

Cameron wrote:I don't like heights, and depth is just height, from a certain point of view. I stay far away from the ocean.

Exactly this.

by **tGreenWay** 29/03/24, 06:28 pm

It’s interesting to me that you guys have a phobia about being on a large body of water. I have similar fears about flying. I must tell myself half a dozen times each flight that humans aren’t meant to fly lol but I love seeing the world so I don’t have a choice but to buck up.
I’ve sailed on a number of oceans and seas, including the Med a few times. Only once did I weird out thinking about how I was in the middle of darkness with no land in sight. It was an uncomfortable feeling, but quickly passed.

by **InTenSity** 29/03/24, 10:37 pm

tGreenWay wrote:It’s interesting to me that you guys have a phobia about being on a large body of water. I have similar fears about flying. I must tell myself half a dozen times each flight that humans aren’t meant to fly lol but I love seeing the world so I don’t have a choice but to buck up.
I’ve sailed on a number of oceans and seas, including the Med a few times. Only once did I weird out thinking about how I was in the middle of darkness with no land in sight. It was an uncomfortable feeling, but quickly passed.

I got nervous flying to Hong Kong. I didn't realize we'd fly over the north pole and Russia. Looking out the window it looked like we were almost into space. Obviously we weren't, but it seemed like it. I had a brief thought that if anything went wrong, hopefully we'd die instantly. Then I ordered another beer.

by **DWags** 30/03/24, 05:45 pm

DWags wrote:Not knowing much about tugboats and harbors, I guess I don’t understand why tugboats wouldn’t remain with those big ships until they got under that bridge and threw it into open water.

It seems like a layer of safety that needs to be added

Again, I don’t know the cost of that if it’s prohibitive, how much traffic would slow down, etc. I just don’t get why tugboats didn’t guide those big shifts all the way through that bridge

At the same time, I grew up in Manistee and the river from Manistee Lake, which is surrounded by major factories out to Lake Michigan is not that wide I’ve watched those huge ships going down that river and the captains maneuvering them and I’m just astounded by how good they are Maybe 10 yards on both sides of the ships Truly are amazing people

Just now on cnn. “We can see in short term fixes, regulations that tugs stay with the big ships until they’re through bridges and obstacle on the way out to open seas. “

Hmmm I’m an idiot, but I thought that same thing. Why wouldn’t they do that?

By the way, it seems like that Captain acted about as quickly as you possibly could. Instead of trying to get the power back on and signaling for help, he immediately went to his cell phone the first time they lost power and called the bridge Authority. Those captains are not stupid people.

by **tGreenWay** 31/03/24, 02:05 am

InTenSity wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:It’s interesting to me that you guys have a phobia about being on a large body of water. I have similar fears about flying. I must tell myself half a dozen times each flight that humans aren’t meant to fly lol but I love seeing the world so I don’t have a choice but to buck up.
I’ve sailed on a number of oceans and seas, including the Med a few times. Only once did I weird out thinking about how I was in the middle of darkness with no land in sight. It was an uncomfortable feeling, but quickly passed.
I got nervous flying to Hong Kong. I didn't realize we'd fly over the north pole and Russia. Looking out the window it looked like we were almost into space. Obviously we weren't, but it seemed like it. I had a brief thought that if anything went wrong, hopefully we'd die instantly. Then I ordered another beer.

Did you start from Miami and you went that route? Must have something to do with magnets. And I would not want to fly anywhere near Russia right now, let alone into Russian airspace.

by **InTenSity** 31/03/24, 03:28 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
InTenSity wrote:
I got nervous flying to Hong Kong. I didn't realize we'd fly over the north pole and Russia. Looking out the window it looked like we were almost into space. Obviously we weren't, but it seemed like it. I had a brief thought that if anything went wrong, hopefully we'd die instantly. Then I ordered another beer.

Did you start from Miami and you went that route? Must have something to do with magnets. And I would not want to fly anywhere near Russia right now, let alone into Russian airspace.

Miami to NYC, NYC to Hong Kong. 17 hour flight. Not as bad as you'd think. I thought we'd go over Alaska and skirt Russia, but nope. I did get 5 out 6 hours of sleep though, so that was good. The flight back I was next to someone that fits bobs fake numbers. I had half a seat.

by **tGreenWay** 31/03/24, 04:51 pm

InTenSity wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Did you start from Miami and you went that route? Must have something to do with magnets. And I would not want to fly anywhere near Russia right now, let alone into Russian airspace.
Miami to NYC, NYC to Hong Kong. 17 hour flight. Not as bad as you'd think. I thought we'd go over Alaska and skirt Russia, but nope. I did get 5 out 6 hours of sleep though, so that was good. The flight back I was next to someone that fits bobs fake numbers. I had half a seat.

There’s no way I’d want to do a 17-hour or more flight in just a regular seat. My wife really wants to see New Zealand, and I’ve already told her I’m only going if we get the lie-flats. She can either go by herself or we can start saving now.

by **pulling69** 31/03/24, 05:33 pm

tGreenWay wrote:
InTenSity wrote: Miami to NYC, NYC to Hong Kong. 17 hour flight. Not as bad as you'd think. I thought we'd go over Alaska and skirt Russia, but nope. I did get 5 out 6 hours of sleep though, so that was good. The flight back I was next to someone that fits bobs fake numbers. I had half a seat.

There’s no way I’d want to do a 17-hour or more flight in just a regular seat. My wife really wants to see New Zealand, and I’ve already told her I’m only going if we get the lie-flats. She can either go by herself or we can start saving now.

If you want a shorter flight to NZ(8 hours instead of 14) you can book on Hawaiian and have a stop for X days in Honolulu or you could book on Figi and stop there for no extra airfare. We did the flight from LAX to Auckland a few years ago on a 787 and it was 14 hours...787 makes the flight not as tiring with the lower cabin altitude and more fresh air vs other aircraft.

by CaptainSlow33 01/04/24, 08:31 am

tGreenWay wrote:It’s interesting to me that you guys have a phobia about being on a large body of water. I have similar fears about flying. I must tell myself half a dozen times each flight that humans aren’t meant to fly lol but I love seeing the world so I don’t have a choice but to buck up.
I’ve sailed on a number of oceans and seas, including the Med a few times. Only once did I weird out thinking about how I was in the middle of darkness with no land in sight. It was an uncomfortable feeling, but quickly passed.

I am terrified of heights, but I love to fly. Last time we went overseas, though, it was a night flight. It was weird seeing a bunch of lights below for hours, and then just...nothing. Flying over the ocean it was just black all around. I enjoy flying very much, but that was extremely unsettling. Even then, my fear was primarily related to the ocean. I don't know why, but large bodies of water just kind of freak me out.

by **Motown Spartan** 01/04/24, 08:59 am

tGreenWay wrote:
InTenSity wrote: Miami to NYC, NYC to Hong Kong. 17 hour flight. Not as bad as you'd think. I thought we'd go over Alaska and skirt Russia, but nope. I did get 5 out 6 hours of sleep though, so that was good. The flight back I was next to someone that fits bobs fake numbers. I had half a seat.

There’s no way I’d want to do a 17-hour or more flight in just a regular seat. My wife really wants to see New Zealand, and I’ve already told her I’m only going if we get the lie-flats. She can either go by herself or we can start saving now.

We went to NZ when my daughter was 8. The cost to upgrade would have been $18k for the family.

by **Trapper Gus** 01/04/24, 09:22 am

tGreenWay wrote:
InTenSity wrote: Miami to NYC, NYC to Hong Kong. 17 hour flight. Not as bad as you'd think. I thought we'd go over Alaska and skirt Russia, but nope. I did get 5 out 6 hours of sleep though, so that was good. The flight back I was next to someone that fits bobs fake numbers. I had half a seat.

There’s no way I’d want to do a 17-hour or more flight in just a regular seat. My wife really wants to see New Zealand, and I’ve already told her I’m only going if we get the lie-flats. She can either go by herself or we can start saving now.

There was a period where the VP of the department I was in was requiring coach trips to China. Yes, 17 hours in coach sucks.

by **Trapper Gus** 15/04/24, 08:40 am

https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-fbi-investiagation-58188d524035c756872603055f309c78

by **Trapper Gus** 02/05/24, 09:37 am

They have found the 5th body...

AP Reports 5th Body Found

by **Trapper Gus** 08/05/24, 08:18 am

They have found the sixth and hopefully last body.

Plan to remove bridge from ship and return ship to dock, opening port.

https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-dali-demolition-48192959c1a4da18a9610573c554d3e4

by **Trapper Gus** 13/05/24, 09:02 am

https://apnews.com/article/maryland-baltimore-bridge-collapse-controlled-demolition-3da84f13a5688af5cc0bdba4c922bd32

by **Trapper Gus** 13/05/24, 06:40 pm

It may not seem all that exciting, but here is the bridge being removed from the ship.

https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-controlled-demolition-1575472095b90256ce00bc69a88d5acb

by **The Pantry** 13/05/24, 07:05 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:It may not seem all that exciting, but here is the bridge being removed from the ship.

https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-controlled-demolition-1575472095b90256ce00bc69a88d5acb

Is the ship grounded? Looked like it barely moved (became more buoyant) after all that steel came off.

by **I.B. Fine** 14/05/24, 11:12 am

The Pantry wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:It may not seem all that exciting, but here is the bridge being removed from the ship.

https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-controlled-demolition-1575472095b90256ce00bc69a88d5acb
Is the ship grounded? Looked like it barely moved (became more buoyant) after all that steel came off.

Judging by the damage to the bow of the ship, I'd say it's taken on enough water to be sitting on the bottom.
They did say in the previous article they are going to 'refloat' the ship.

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