tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread

by Clarett's Folly 2014-04-23, 11:35

At the request of Heat Miser here is a place for general discussions about football, the basic architecture of the game, and how it relates to our team and our opponents.

Let's talk some ball.

by Space Coyote 2014-04-23, 12:14

For people to catch up, there was much discussion in this thread

https://spartanswill.forumotion.com/t239-tofficial-3-4-speculation-thread

by BtothejizA 2014-04-23, 13:18

We were #1 in the NCAA with a 4-3 front, so we would be up there with the Seahawks if we switched to a 3-4 look right?

by Space Coyote 2014-04-23, 13:25

BtothejizA wrote:We were #1 in the NCAA with a 4-3 front, so we would be up there with the Seahawks if we switched to a 3-4 look right?

Seahawks actually run a 4-3 Under. Similar in many ways to a 3-4 (you can stand up the rush end), but slightly different. They also tend to press out of a cover 3 rather than a cover 4.

by Clarett's Folly 2014-04-23, 13:25

BtothejizA wrote:We were #1 in the NCAA with a 4-3 front, so we would be up there with the Seahawks if we switched to a 3-4 look right?

Absolutely. In-fact we'd probably be promoted to an NFC North team on account of how good we'd be.
Excellent question.

by **DWags** 2014-04-23, 19:27

Shit at track meet. Be on tonight.

by tTito 2014-04-23, 19:35

Still craving information on the most important position going into the fall:

Hicks, Calquhoun, Edmonson

by **Ass Dan** 2014-04-23, 20:04

Most important position going into fall is defensive tackle. Lost a ton of experience up front and you need your young linebackers to be able to run free.

Cb will sort itself out

by BtothejizA 2014-04-23, 20:59

Ass Dan wrote:Most important position going into fall is defensive tackle. Lost a ton of experience up front and you need your young linebackers to be able to run free.

Cb will sort itself out

I think we'll be alright in the middle between Knox, Heath seemingly stepping up pretty big, Kittredge hopefully being back to 2012 form and Clemons stepping up in the CG and RB. Solid 4 man rotation with LT being able to play in there and and probable contributions from Frosh as well.

Confident in the #2 corner situation between Hicks/Robinson/Arjen too.

by **DWags** 2014-04-23, 21:06

Meant to quote the DT query.

we'll Know a ton more after Saturday. Draft gives some insight into who the kids think is working hard. I know that I"ll have my eye on that position the most.

by Space Coyote 2014-05-06, 08:54

Connor Cook made great strides over the course of the 2013 season, and the passing concepts and play calls toward the latter half of the season showed it. However, the passing game didn't only make strides because of Cook. As someone who was highly critical of Samuel throughout 2012 and to start 2013, the WRs also made great improvements as the offense started to find its legs.

Here, we look at MSU's use of the Switch Concept.

http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com/2014/05/inside-playbook-michigan-state-passing-offense-switch-concept.html

tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread Slide1

tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread Slide1

by **SeeRockCity** 2014-05-06, 09:28

So glad the Baron, DWags, and CF are here. Thanks guys.

paging Gen grant and CBD

by tTito 2014-05-06, 09:43

Looking forward to this thread staying on the first page.

I had questioned, prior to the Spring game whether or not Waynes would switch to boundary corner and we now know the answer is yes. Should be interesting to see where the chips fall with field corner, safety, and linebackers. Also do you guys expect significant rotation on the defensive line? What did you think about Taiwan Jones' play at Mike during the Spring game?

by **DWags** 2014-05-06, 10:40

tTito wrote:Looking forward to this thread staying on the first page.

I had questioned, prior to the Spring game whether or not Waynes would switch to boundary corner and we now know the answer is yes. Should be interesting to see where the chips fall with field corner, safety, and linebackers. Also do you guys expect significant rotation on the defensive line? What did you think about Taiwan Jones' play at Mike during the Spring game?

Routes were lazy and were often run at half speed in 2012. I don't know if it was Maxwell not working with receivers in the off season or just not having a chemistry with them. But I don't ever think I was as frustrated with receivers as I was leaving the ND game in 2012. There was absolutely no chemistry between our QB and receivers, and I was worried that the season would just suck. It basically did. Many of the same plays were there, but how many times did we see Maxwell just zip through progressions and throw it? The most important time in a college football offensive scheme is between April and August where QB's work with WR's. If they don't develop a chemistry, you better have a QB like Manziel who can create space and time with his feet. We will be using the classic pocket passer for the next couple of years, the vision of Cook will be very important in implementing any pass routes.

Like anything the game is slowing down with Cook. Also, the receivers are definitely learning to read coverages at the LOS much better. They're able to just play and not think them through. Honestly, at the 2012 ND game you could almost hear them think their routes as they were trying to run them. It really was about as aggravated as I've been at a game. My buddy from ND and I took end zone seats that game and we were both just flabbergasted at our receivers. Was that Maxwell? Maybe it was his lack of being a great leader and getting receivers to work with him over the spring and summer. I still think the best two qb's as far as tools I've seen in the past 14 years at MSU were Van Dyke and Maxwell. One seemed to be snake bit, the other just never seemed to be able to get his team to back him up or be willing to be the leader. His personality didn't fit the position.

by **SeeRockCity** 2014-05-06, 11:40

Question for the panel.

Our defense seems to be designed around our corners. Leaving them on an island, freeing up the safeties for blitzes and aggressive run support.

Does this change with the departure of DD? I guess conversely, does the uptick in depth/talent on the Dline change the way the defense works this year?

by Space Coyote 2014-05-06, 14:42

SeeRockCity wrote:Question for the panel.

Our defense seems to be designed around our corners. Leaving them on an island, freeing up the safeties for blitzes and aggressive run support.

Does this change with the departure of DD? I guess conversely, does the uptick in depth/talent on the Dline change the way the defense works this year?

You can make some tweaks in how you run the defense, do things like give a bit more safety help and so forth. But at the end of the day, Narduzzi is going to continue running his Cover 4 MEG defense. It's his philosophy. The hardest throw to make is the deep throw to the sideline. Force the other team to beat you, be sound in your technique, and the rest will work itself out. You may occasionally run into a buzz saw that is on that day, and you're going to give up some big plays, but they trust their coaching and players to do their job and do it well enough to give the offense a chance to win.

What I guess I'm really interested in seeing is if Narduzzi takes a head job elsewhere, does he implement it right away and live with the early struggles? My guess is that's what he would want to do, implement right away, live with the struggles, but figure it gets you to where you want to be faster. I think this is part of the reason Narduzzi is holding off for a really good job; he knows if he goes to a school that is way under-capable that he may not have time to turn it around (because coaches unfortunately rarely get the amount of time needed to change a program). If he can get a team that has enough talent, he can work with them and be good enough early to build to where he wants to be. Anyway, that's just speculation, but I guess food for thought.

by **DWags** 2014-05-06, 15:10

SeeRockCity wrote:Question for the panel.

Our defense seems to be designed around our corners. Leaving them on an island, freeing up the safeties for blitzes and aggressive run support.

Does this change with the departure of DD? I guess conversely, does the uptick in depth/talent on the Dline change the way the defense works this year?

Narduzzi really has an addiction to the cover 4 press. You will see the same thing next year, it won't change. We all know how difficult it is to be a great press corner, but Narduzzi has our Press guy on the line, inside foot forward, really taking a ton of routes away from the WR. If they're going to bubble outside and get down the sideline for a a very low percentage throw, we'll give you that. However, when OSU took it against Johnny Adams two years ago right after we had taken a lead, it broke all of our hearts. It is what it is. But I can guarantee you that we will see the same defense, aggressive, pressing at the LOS, asking the refs if they're on or off just like the receivers do. It's fun as hell to watch isn't it.

by **SeeRockCity** 2014-05-06, 15:16

Thanks guys! Kind of what I suspected, but with all the talent we have on the edges this year, I guess we'll find out. And yes, DWags, it is fun to watch.

by Guest 2014-05-06, 23:21

Forget the X's & O's - Rich Homie is down!!

http://www.tmz.com/2014/05/06/rich-homie-quan-hospitalized-seizures-head-injury-music-video-shoot/

by Space Coyote 2014-05-12, 09:38

By the 2nd half of the season, MSU had continued to move their passing concepts forward. While still utilizing pretty standard packages, they group them in a way that allowed Cook to determine how to attack the coverage based on the look of the safeties.

In this post I looked at how Cook utilized his eyes and improved his abilities to read the defense, and how this was a big improvement for MSU's offense over the course of the year.

http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com/2014/05/inside-playbook-michigan-state-mesh-china-concept-triangles-pass-game.html

tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread Slide1

by WCS 2014-05-12, 10:30

Clarett's Folly wrote:At the request of Heat Miser here is a place for general discussions about football, the basic architecture of the game, and how it relates to our team and our opponents.

Let's talk some ball.

MSU is the master of the wheel route. Jeremy Langford busted through Ohio State's line and secondary late in the championship game on a wheel route for a rushing touchdown. Also, Damion Terry scored a rushing touchdown in the spring game on a wheel route.

by WCS 2014-05-12, 10:32

Space Coyote wrote:By the 2nd half of the season, MSU had continued to move their passing concepts forward. While still utilizing pretty standard packages, they group them in a way that allowed Cook to determine how to attack the coverage based on the look of the safeties.

In this post I looked at how Cook utilized his eyes and improved his abilities to read the defense, and how this was a big improvement for MSU's offense over the course of the year.

http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com/2014/05/inside-playbook-michigan-state-mesh-china-concept-triangles-pass-game.html

I love how Warner was able to calibrate the game plan in real time...and able to put his players in the best position to succeed.

by **DWags** 2014-05-12, 10:34

Space Coyote wrote:By the 2nd half of the season, MSU had continued to move their passing concepts forward. While still utilizing pretty standard packages, they group them in a way that allowed Cook to determine how to attack the coverage based on the look of the safeties.

In this post I looked at how Cook utilized his eyes and improved his abilities to read the defense, and how this was a big improvement for MSU's offense over the course of the year.

http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com/2014/05/inside-playbook-michigan-state-mesh-china-concept-triangles-pass-game.html

Can't remember where I talked about it, but by the Big Ten Title game, cook was making adjustments as we broke the huddle. It was impressive as hell to see him, start looking from the time we broke the huddle up to the line of scrimmage. I bet he was over 35% of changing plays. I've wondered if we might use a "muddle" at some point. He's reading defenses better and better. (of course he had a bit of trouble reading ours in the scrimmage)

by **steveschneider** 2014-05-12, 10:36

Outside of Dwags, how many coaches are in this thread?

by Space Coyote 2014-05-12, 10:48

WCS wrote:

I love how Warner was able to calibrate the game plan in real time...and able to put his players in the best position to succeed.

Not challenging what you said, but I can promise Warner had this play starred and underlined and circled coming into this game. This is just a very well designed play, but particularly against OSU. This play really attacks pretty much every single weakness of OSU. OSU ran a ton of cover 6 (cover 2 to boundary, cover 4 to field), but a bit of cover 3 as well. They were pretty awful at taking proper angles in the secondary (as seen by the safety here, and often by the CBs coming up to make tackles) and struggled in underneath zones all year. The mesh puts an emphasis on all these things, and the dump off (the drag to the backside of the play) takes advantage of OSU's CBs being undisciplined and over aggressive.

There were a number of plays that MSU ran during this game that were wonderfully scouted to take advantage of OSU's defense. Overall it was simply a good game plan start to finish for MSU, and MSU's improvement over the course of the year allowed them to execute the game plan.

by Space Coyote 2014-05-12, 10:53

steveschneider wrote:Outside of Dwags, how many coaches are in this thread?

I dunno how many others are coaches. I have coached/do coach. Had to take a couple years off to finish up grad school, looking to get back into it now though. Have coached all positions outside of LBs, but most of my work has been with OL and evenly split between DL/CBs.

by **DWags** 2014-05-12, 11:17

Space Coyote wrote:

Not challenging what you said, but I can promise Warner had this play starred and underlined and circled coming into this game. This is just a very well designed play, but particularly against OSU. This play really attacks pretty much every single weakness of OSU. OSU ran a ton of cover 6 (cover 2 to boundary, cover 4 to field), but a bit of cover 3 as well. They were pretty awful at taking proper angles in the secondary (as seen by the safety here, and often by the CBs coming up to make tackles) and struggled in underneath zones all year. The mesh puts an emphasis on all these things, and the dump off (the drag to the backside of the play) takes advantage of OSU's CBs being undisciplined and over aggressive.

There were a number of plays that MSU ran during this game that were wonderfully scouted to take advantage of OSU's defense. Overall it was simply a good game plan start to finish for MSU, and MSU's improvement over the course of the year allowed them to execute the game plan.

Also, how bad were the OSU safeties at covering for any corner blitz? It was the end of the year and it seemed like it was just put in to their defense.

by Space Coyote 2014-05-12, 11:29

DWags wrote:

Also, how bad were the OSU safeties at covering for any corner blitz? It was the end of the year and it seemed like it was just put in to their defense.

For the talent they had in the defensive backfield, I felt as a whole they were woefully undercoached. Too complex? Too many schemes and techniques? I dunno. But they had a ton of athletic talent that just failed in a lot of fundamentals. It showed against Michigan, MSU, and Clemson. From angles, to tackling technique, to press coverage, to recovery technique, everything pretty much. Two coaches for OSU (they have a specific CBs and specific safeties coaches) that I thought did a disservice to their players (and likely the players did just as much as a disservice to the coaches), because they simply lacked adequate technique from start to end of the season, and they were plenty athletic and experienced to not be in that position. It was to the degree that I specifically pointed to that following the BTT game as the major factor that prevented the Buckeyes from reaching the National Title.

by **DWags** 2014-05-12, 11:52

Space Coyote wrote:

For the talent they had in the defensive backfield, I felt as a whole they were woefully undercoached. Too complex? Too many schemes and techniques? I dunno. But they had a ton of athletic talent that just failed in a lot of fundamentals. It showed against Michigan, MSU, and Clemson. From angles, to tackling technique, to press coverage, to recovery technique, everything pretty much. Two coaches for OSU (they have a specific CBs and specific safeties coaches) that I thought did a disservice to their players (and likely the players did just as much as a disservice to the coaches), because they simply lacked adequate technique from start to end of the season, and they were plenty athletic and experienced to not be in that position. It was to the degree that I specifically pointed to that following the BTT game as the major factor that prevented the Buckeyes from reaching the National Title.

Check out Lippett's TD at 1:10. Corner blitz. How does he get open vs. their safety? Safety had 15 yards and everything in front of him. Just were not that good back there.
We can't see it from this clip, but I remember looking at it during the game at the field and saying wow, what a horrible angle.

by Space Coyote 2014-05-12, 12:07

DWags wrote:

Check out Lippett's TD at 1:10. Corner blitz. How does he get open vs. their safety? Safety had 15 yards and everything in front of him. Just were not that good back there.
We can't see it from this clip, but I remember looking at it during the game at the field and saying wow, what a horrible angle.

Yup, I remember that one. CB blitz you cannot let the WR get over top of you. So the safety takes an angle directly toward the sideline, bites down hard on the initial hitch and gets burned on the Go. Think the same exact thing happened during the Michigan game vs Gallon. I mean, just awful technique that shouldn't happen at the college level.

The thing that I was most critical on with these blunders weren't that they made them. It's that they made them, didn't correct them, and then made them again the following week. Things like this aren't ingrained technique problems that take weeks to fix. It's not footwork or hand placement. It's taking an angle that doesn't result in you getting absolutely burned on a CB blitz.

by Clarett's Folly 2014-05-12, 16:30

steveschneider wrote:Outside of Dwags, how many coaches are in this thread?

In another life, yes.

by Clarett's Folly 2014-05-12, 16:31

WCS wrote:

I love how Warner was able to calibrate the game plan in real time...and able to put his players in the best position to succeed.

tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread XS5LK

by **NigelUno** 2014-05-20, 14:39

CrazySparty bump.

by Space Coyote 2014-05-20, 15:50

NigelUno wrote:CrazySparty bump.

Crazy Sparty bump you say...

tOfficial Swill Football Xs & Os Thread Msu-mascot

by Space Coyote 2014-08-04, 15:41

Posted on the board that shall not be named, but thought it'd bring some football discussion to this board. Here are some quotes from what I've brought up:

"It's interesting, against RR's spread teams and Meyer's recent iterations of spread-to-run football, I thought MSU's cover 4 was an advantageous scheme. I don't feel the same way against Oregon's scheme though. Oregon utilizes athletic TEs and bigger WRs well in the seams and on deep crosses, which, combined with a lot of the stretch runs and screens that Oregon utilizes, is very, very difficult for MSU's safeties to cover. I think MSU uses their OLBs a bit more in coverage and flexes them out a yard or so wider than the midpoint between the #2 and the EMOL and tries to keep things a bit more in-front and inside than they typically do. If the box players hold up well, the safeties can be more patient in their run reads, and that makes life so much easier. I've said it for a while not, but DT vs Oregon's interior, IMO, is the most important match up. They win their match up, and everything else can fall into place, including OLB playing a little bit further outside the box, and thus allowing safeties to crash more patiently vs the run (plays outside get stretched further, so front side safety is wider to fill alley, backside safety can be more patient coming down to LB level and instead thus is in better position to rotate over the top)."

"I don't think Oregon runs a lot between center and guard (they will cut some inside zone looks up there, but it's usually guard-tackle or backside), so the DTs could probably play 2i fairly comfortably, especially seeing as the TE will usually be off the LOS, so a even front is natural.

I also expect to see DEs playing heads up on the EMOL quite a bit. Prevents some free releases, but also allows MSU to utilize some stunts and change up gaps a bit. If MSU flexes out an OLB, the DE getting reached isn't the end of the world. I think Narduzzi will really focus on the DL controlling their blocker across from them and not let them get to the 2nd level, that's when a team like Oregon gets very dangerous.

FWIW, I'd try to find the LSU-Oregon game and the Auburn-Oregon game. Offense has changed a little, but those were two teams with great DTs that really controlled the LOS and what Oregon was able to do."

"See, for me, it has nothing to do with the discipline of the safeties. The safeties will do what the safeties have to do. But in the cover 4 scheme, the safeties must remain as patient as they can coming down until they have the appropriate read. Well, Oregon is going to throw a lot of looks and a lot of reads at MSU, and they are going to do them extremely quickly. If the interior of Oregon is beating the interior of MSU, that forces the LBs to be more committed in the box, which forces the MSU safeties to be more tied into run support in the alley and the cutback, which opens up Oregon's passing attack in the seam, which they utilize very well. If MSU's safeties can't remain as patient as needed because they need to stop the run, it turns into a pick your poison. Either give up chunks with open space running the ball (and thus meeting Oregon backs or their QB in open space 4-5 yards past the LOS) or risk giving up the pass over the top.

If MSU's DTs can control the interior, then the LBs can better flow and control the ball carrier, which allows the safeties to be more patient coming down, reading their keys, maintaining their assignment."

And when answering a few questions:

"1. Oregon will pick on one or the other, and they can do so utilizing misdirection to either side. Here's a play from the BTT game in which OSU is picking on the backside safety. That safety is tasked with coming down into the box, theoretically to LB level, and stopping about the B-gap on the backside. His reads are: boot (any play action coming back his direction), reverse, cutback. First responsibility is that play action, but OSU's H-motion flattened him out too much. He wasn't patient in his read or disciplined enough with his eyes. As soon as he went parallel to the LOS, he should have found the #2 and gained depth, but he wasn't patient enough.
(At ~1:30)

Note that Lewis made the same mistake against Michigan by flattening out too much on his support over the top, but Michigan didn't capitalize. I'm sure OSU saw this sort of thing on film, and it's why teams attacked Lewis more than Drummond.

(At ~2:01:20)

But that route can be flatted out to take advantage of the playside safety as well. Likely from a trips set to hold the backside safety, but the same can be said. The wheel route (as seen in the OSU video above) also threatens that safety. Oregon can run something like that from the slot, particularly because they'll throw that bench route often enough as well (any way to get the ball to players in space). Watch out for the screen package as well, where you throw the pop pass off a bubble or something similar.

So I don't think overall one safety should play too fast if the other is. Oregon will attack the one that they believe is more shaky, be it if they see something where they believe one of them is too fast coming down on the backside, or if they see one of them is too fast filling the alley, or what have you. With certain route combinations or trips sets you can try to pick on both at the same time (deep cross, seam, fade option off an inverted veer play action, for instance), but more often than not you'll pick one to actually target.

2. Of the teams now, I would actually say the closest is OSU's. Nebraska still runs quite a bit of 2 back pistol type stuff, and are a unique mix of pro-style and misdirection spread. Possibly Northwestern on steroids. The actual closest in recent years are Rich Rod's Michigan teams on steroids and the ability to actually throw the football. Oregon's passing concepts are well above anything Rich Rod was able to establish in his time at Michigan though, and still a little more diverse than what OSU utilizes (Northwestern is very simple in this regard as well).

3. I absolutely think you want to make them work the ball down field. Doing that allows you to assert your will more on them, it makes them a bit more uncomfortable. And the weakness of any spread based team is getting behind the chains. Then the run threat, especially the lateral run threat, is reduced, it limits their playbook. They are so good at the run because it is practiced so much, but that takes away from the development of their pass game. More plays they run, more likely defense has a successful play, more often defense controls tempo, more often Oregon feels uncomfortable, advantage MSU."

So, in summary, I think the DTs vs Oregon's interior is the most important match up. I think in game adjustments come mostly at the DL level, which has the most experience. And I'm most interested in seeing how MSU adapts to Oregon's trips sets.

by **Heat Miser** 2014-08-04, 18:34

Space Coyote wrote:Posted on the board that shall not be named....

FYI...you can name it all you want. You can also link your website if you like.

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2014-08-04, 20:21

Got dayum. Gonna have to read this when I'm sober. Love me some Space Coyote/CF posts.

In the meantime, the thread title reminded me of this abortion so I will leave it here. God I grew up at the worst time.

by **SeeRockCity** 2014-08-05, 08:31

Heat Miser wrote:
Space Coyote wrote:Posted on the board that shall not be named....

FYI...you can name it all you want. You can also link your website if you like.

this.

feel free to post a link back Baron. Always a good read.

by Space Coyote 2014-08-05, 09:19

SeeRockCity wrote:

this.

feel free to post a link back Baron. Always a good read.

I'm in the process of writing a post about MSU and how the safeties play in their cover 4. While the CBs get most of the glory because they're left on an island, I actually believe it's the safeties that have the most taxing responsibilities, because they are both tied into the run game and have serious responsibilities in coverage. It was intended to be out soon, but I ran into a problem where my dog was bit by another dog and the wound got infected and now she's in a cone of shame after having to get the top of her head cut open to get out all the infected tissue; not a good situation. But I'll link the post when I get to it, just love to get football discussion going.

by Green Ninja 2014-08-05, 09:41

Space Coyote wrote:

I'm in the process of writing a post about MSU and how the safeties play in their cover 4. While the CBs get most of the glory because they're left on an island, I actually believe it's the safeties that have the most taxing responsibilities, because they are both tied into the run game and have serious responsibilities in coverage. It was intended to be out soon, but I ran into a problem where my dog was bit by another dog and the wound got infected and now she's in a cone of shame after having to get the top of her head cut open to get out all the infected tissue; not a good situation. But I'll link the post when I get to it, just love to get football discussion going.

Oh no, wishing the best to your pup

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