EL sucks: proof #1,254,327

If the vote were taken today, it would almost certainly go the other way. Three seats on the council turned over in November, and the new majority is less enchanted with businesses they believe cater solely to college students.

Where do bars fit in East Lansing's future?


EAST LANSING – A line of Michigan State University students gathered outside Tin Can on Grand River Avenue, IDs ready.

It was the Thursday afternoon before graduation. The bar was already uncomfortably packed, with patrons filling every table, bar and wall space available. For many, finals week was over, and it was a time to celebrate at a bar that owner Doug Johns Jr. has called “Chuck E. Cheese for adults.”
The East Lansing City Council barely allowed The Tin Can to open last fall, approving a special use permit on a 3-2 vote in October. Bars and restaurants need such permits to operate. The Tin Can is at 313 E. Grand River Ave., the former site of State Side Deli & Pub.

If the vote were taken today, it would almost certainly go the other way. Three seats on the council turned over in November, and the new majority is less enchanted with businesses they believe cater solely to college students.

"It’s exactly what we don’t need downtown," said Councilman Erik Altmann, who was elected in November. "That license should have never been granted in the first place. There’s already an undue concentration of bars downtown."
Think of it as another chapter in East Lansing's long and conflicted relationship with its downtown bars.
"We're trying to create a new strip (downtown)," said Mayor Pro Tem Ruth Beier, who voted against the Tin Can in October. "We're crowding out new establishments if we keep allowing the same things in."

Beier would like to see grocery stores, offices and more diverse housing options for families and seniors.

"The perception of downtown is that its more of a college bar scene," said Mayor Mark Meadows. "There's more 18- to 24-year-old foot traffic. Some businesses ended up closing because there was less older foot traffic and were replaced by restaurants catering to the younger crowd."

Meadows said he isn't against new bars opening, but he wants them to "offer opportunities for all age groups to stop in and enjoy themselves."

That's why, when The Tin Can applied for an entertainment license in April, asking to offer darts, water pong and table games, the council denied the request 5-0. Many council members were turned off by the fact that the bar had been advertising pudding shots and Faygo bombs on its front windows along with the slogan "good beer, cheap friends."
“This was an opportunity to prevent a problem from getting worse,” said Altmann, shortly after the request was denied. "If it came back with a proposal to broaden its business plan, maybe we could have a discussion."

In reality, that discussion was based on a misunderstanding, Beier said. A bar only needs an entertainment license to host competitive games with prizes such as trivia or darts. Water pong and table games are allowed as long as there are no prizes offered by the bar.

However, adding games that are based around drinking made council question whether Tin Can could continually meet the requirements of the city's three-decade-old 50/50 rule, which requires half of a bar's revenue to come from food sales. Operating from 3 p.m. to 2 a.m. on weekdays, the bar is already missing out on the lunch crowd, when food sales typically outweigh alcohol sales. It opens at noon on Saturday and Sunday.
If a bar doesn’t meet the requirement, it is ticketed and fined. If it gets six citations in two years, the city council could revoke a bar's business license, said Tim Dempsey, East Lansing’s planning, building and development director.

"Doing this makes sure these places don't turn into student bars," Meadows said. "How some of these places are making the number is always a mystery to me."

To date, no bar has had its license revoked by council for too many citations, said Darcy Schmitt, East Lansing’s planning and zoning administrator, in an email. However, bars have received citations in the past.
During planning commission meetings in August, Johns assured that commission members that “We’re going to push the food."

“I can’t make them eat," he said, "but we’re certainly going to try.”

Johns declined to comment for this story.
Tin Can opened in late February. It did not meet the 50/50 rule for March. Just 46 percent of its revenues came from food sales, according to a report filed with the city. However, the bar will not be cited by police because it didn't have a full three months of data, Dempsey said. Only if a bar fails to meet the requirement for a full quarter can it be cited, he said. Its next reporting cycle is April through June.

Scott Ellis is the executive director of the Michigan Licensed Beverage Association, a lobbying group serving restaurant and bar owners. He believes East Lansing's approach in dealing with bars harms business growth, especially the 50/50 rule.

"I do believe it can be restricting," said Ellis. "To limit someone's business model is detrimental to success. I know potential bar owners who won't open in East Lansing."

Spencer Soka opened the State Side Deli & Pub in East Lansing in 2010 solely as a restaurant. He got a liquor license in 2013 to "increase the quality of the atmosphere," he wrote in a letter to council in July 2013. When he later asked council to extend his closing time from 12 a.m. to 2 a.m., he was denied.

"They didn't feel it was appropriate," Soka said, sitting in a booth at his State Side Deli restaurant in Okemos. "Then they contradicted themselves by allowing Tin Can to get a 2 a.m. license."

The Tin Can occupies the same downtown storefront. Soka sold the restaurant last summer because he couldn't compete with bars allowed to stay open later, he said. He also received two violations on his liquor license.

"My only competition was from the city," he said. "We had to cut ourselves short because of what the city allowed us to do."

The request was denied because the council's argument was that "we have plenty of 2 a.m. bars down there and we don't really need another one," Beier said.

The council denied Tin Can's request for an entertainment license for similar reasons.

Councilwoman Susan Woods, who voted in favor of Tin Can in October, voted against the entertainment license request in April because she felt the bar was misrepresenting what Johns had originally promised, and water pong was never mentioned before.

“When they first applied for a (special use permit) license … they said it was not going to be like the Tin Cans in DeWitt and Lansing.”

The other four Tin Can locations only offer appetizers and small dishes. The East Lansing location has a burger menu, as well.

"I realize it's not everyone's 'cup of tea' but we are a legitimate restaurant (and) bar that prides itself on being a responsible and valuable addition to the communities that we operate in," Johns wrote in an April 25 email to councilwoman Shanna Draheim.

Beier ended up meeting with Johns earlier this month to address her concerns. One of the bar's biggest opponents came away with a more optimistic look. In the fall, Tin Can will open for lunch to help meet the 50/50 rule, she said.

"I was surprised at how serious he was," she said, "He's ready to embrace it and I think he can do it. At this point we need to decide whether we want to help this business succeed, if it's going to be something that adds value to downtown. If it doesn't work, we'll have a problem."

Floyd Robertson wrote:

If the vote were taken today, it would almost certainly go the other way. Three seats on the council turned over in November, and the new majority is less enchanted with businesses they believe cater solely to college students.

lolz, students spend more money in that town than permanent residents I bet.

Turtleneck wrote:Awaiting Blanch's insightful commentary.

NigelUno wrote:"Beier would like to see grocery stores, offices and more diverse housing options for families and seniors."

Grocery stores? Not enough people live downtown to support a grocery store.

Housing for families? Why would anyone with a family want to live in a condo/apartment in downtown EL?

Offices would help support a lunch crowd. But parking?

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:What has always baffled me is why would someone move to East Lansing if they were not willing to embrace the University culture, students included? The council must represent the agenda of the permanent residents, I just don't understand how logically the residents aren't like "well it's a college town, sooo...." every time they find themselves irritated that another college bar is opened.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:What has always baffled me is why would someone move to East Lansing if they were not willing to embrace the University culture, students included? The council must represent the agenda of the permanent residents, I just don't understand how logically the residents aren't like "well it's a college town, sooo...." every time they find themselves irritated that another college bar is opened.

xsanguine wrote:Must be one of those society wide problems TN and I were discussing in the off-topic forum. Sounds like coercion works pretty well for the minority that get to benefit from the mone the students spend in their town... They just don't want them spending their money the way the student's would like to and which merchants are willing to provide. Viva la government!

Rocinante wrote:A strip club would probably do well downtown too, x. But I'm sure the bourgeoisie would quash that. What right do they have to decide what kind of town they want to live in, anyway?

NigelUno wrote:

Rocinante wrote:A strip club would probably do well downtown too, x. But I'm sure the bourgeoisie would quash that. What right do they have to decide what kind of town they want to live in, anyway?

Apparently, they want to live in a dead/dying town.

Rocinante wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Apparently, they want to live in a dead/dying town.  

That's their right.  All university towns have this struggle.  EL's real problem is that it's too linear.  The university campus isn't integrated enough with the city.  It's like MSU |grand river Ave| East Lansing.  That dividing line causes most of the problem in my opinion.  It was poorly planned.

NigelUno wrote:The biggest appeal of any college town is the bars/restaurants. To ignore (or to actively campaign against) it is just stupid. Bad economics.

NigelUno wrote:

xsanguine wrote:Must be one of those society wide problems TN and I were discussing in the off-topic forum. Sounds like coercion works pretty well for the minority that get to benefit from the mone the students spend in their town... They just don't want them spending their money the way the student's would like to and which merchants are willing to provide. Viva la government!

I'm guessing some of the bars (and owners) are big fans of the 'no more bars' nonsense.

Rocinante wrote:A strip club would probably do well downtown too, x. But I'm sure the bourgeoisie would quash that. What right do they have to decide what kind of town they want to live in, anyway?

NigelUno wrote:

Rocinante wrote:A strip club would probably do well downtown too, x. But I'm sure the bourgeoisie would quash that. What right do they have to decide what kind of town they want to live in, anyway?

Apparently, they want to live in a dead/dying town.

Rocinante wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Apparently, they want to live in a dead/dying town.

That's their right. All university towns have this struggle. EL's real problem is that it's too linear. The university campus isn't integrated enough with the city. It's like MSU |grand river Ave| East Lansing. That dividing line causes most of the problem in my opinion. It was poorly planned.

xsanguine wrote:

Rocinante wrote:A strip club would probably do well downtown too, x. But I'm sure the bourgeoisie would quash that. What right do they have to decide what kind of town they want to live in, anyway?

They do. They can choose to live or not to live in that town. Or they can get a collection of individuals together, find their own plot of land and create the subdivision of their dreams, sans strip clubs. But when you rely on the student's money for all of their luxuries... But only the luxuries they want, not what the students who are spending their money and creating this luxurious environment for the year round residents... Isn't there a bit of disconnect?

xsanguine wrote:Or let the students keep their business on "their side of the tracks" and create bars/clubs, whatever on the property they live on.

xsanguine wrote:Or let the students keep their business on "their side of the tracks" and create bars/clubs, whatever on the property they live on.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I enjoy hurdling the vomit puddles on Grand River on my pre-dawn runs.. adds a unique fitness component to an otherwise steady-state aerobic activity.

During planning commission meetings in August, Johns assured that commission members that “We’re going to push the food."

“I can’t make them eat," he said, "but we’re certainly going to try.”

Nordic wrote:

During planning commission meetings in August, Johns assured that commission members that “We’re going to push the food."

“I can’t make them eat," he said, "but we’re certainly going to try.”

Why does Johns want everyone to be so fat?

NigelUno wrote:"Beier would like to see grocery stores, offices and more diverse housing options for families and seniors."

Grocery stores? Not enough people live downtown to support a grocery store.

Housing for families? Why would anyone with a family want to live in a condo/apartment in downtown EL?

Offices would help support a lunch crowd. But parking?

NigelUno wrote:

Nordic wrote:

Why does Johns want everyone to be so fat?

The 50/50 rule is laughable. There's no way that bars actually meet that rule.