ITT Let's talk about Tyler O'Connor

Let me preface this by saying, I'm a little buzzed.  Okay, now that that is out of  the way.

There has been a lot made of this video:



We've discussed it here, it's been posted and discussed at tCock, and has even made an appearace at MGoBlog:

The idiots at MGoBlog break down the break down of Tyler O'Connor's  Furman Game

So, I thought we'd try to find some additional evidence.  Specifically, I set out looking for tape of the OSU and Maryland games. First, the OSU game because, well, FUCK YES!:



First, FUCK YES!  

Second, FUCK YES!

I wish I could use this whole broadcast as my ringtone (and I would make people wait, believe me)... Anywhooo...

This is a great thing to watch because, well, we beat them and we played a really good game.  The morans of the world blame the weather, Urban's play calling, the phase of the moon, etc, but our OLine and DLine just fucking flat out played the game of their lives that day and it is really fun to watch.  Okay, back to the topic at hand.  It's also interesting because you could make the same arguments about TOC's game here as the random dude did vs. Furman;  although, I think he checks to his 2nd options at least twice in this game,   particularly when rolling out of the pocket.  So that is a plus.  Made a couple of great throws but looks a lot like he did vs. Furman.  We also ran him a LOT.  Which I think was a great added dynamic to the offense.  Dave Warner's play calling was (in my uneducated opinion) exceptional for the most part.

Next up, the Maryland game (link takes you to the start of the 2nd half)



To be honest, im having a hard time studying this game because, 1 Maryland, and 2, Tressel ball. But maybe one of you with lots of time on their hands can pick up the yolk and pull the cart here. I may try again tomorrow but nobody really gives a shit what I think anyway (thank Christ) so maybe not.

My naive conclusion from the limited evidence?  We can't see what he's looking at on the field, only which direction his helmet is pointed, so I'm not sure that this whole "stared down his primary receiver" bullshit is valid.  In fact, I may be a dumb Class D high school offensive lineman but I seem to recall that it is not uncommon to put multiple receivers on the same side of the field in order to take advantage of holes in coverage, so I'm not sure looking at TO'C's helmet from a camera mounted at the top of the press box is a sure indication that he is locked into anything, but hey, what do I know.

Sharing is caring.... thoughts please.

My opinion during the game was that i was pissed his stat line looked so good when my eye told me he looked pretty meh.  Seemed a tick or two slow on his reads (if he even made one... the throw to LJ in the right flat for example when others were open to the left/deep).

I'll watch the tight cut of Furman tomorrow (link plz) and see if I was just drunk and melting down during the game or if my observations were correct

SeeRockCity wrote:

My naive conclusion from the limited evidence?  We can't see what he's looking at on the field, only which direction his helmet is pointed, so I'm not sure that this whole "stared down his primary receiver" bullshit is valid.  In fact, I may be a dumb Class D high school offensive lineman but I seem to recall that it is not uncommon to put multiple receivers on the same side of the field in order to take advantage of holes in coverage, so I'm not sure looking at TO'C's helmet from a camera mounted at the top of the press box is a sure indication that he is locked into anything, but hey, what do I know.

Sharing is caring.... thoughts please.

That's what I was thinking too. How can you tell exactly where he was looking? That being said, we were saying the same thing in the stand about him locking in to his primary target. Needs to cut down on his hesitation to pull the trigger on throws too. That was pretty evident. His game is going to have to step up in a week and a half.

I'd rather have a fifth year senior with experience in big games than anyone on our current roster.

DWags wrote:I'd rather have a fifth year senior with experience in big games than anyone on our current roster.

This. Seems Coach D agrees.

I haven't watched the breakdown video but can we talk about how laughable it is for someone not on the staff suggest that they are qualified to grade a QB's performance?
You might be able to identify the route concept, and the pass protection, against a given defense but to suggest that you know the read progression and, further, that you can tell whether or not a QB is adhering to that progression is equally arrogant and moronic.
For instance, I know of a staff that runs a standard flood combo, also known as Jon Gruden's famous Spider 2 Y-Banana (take-off, flag, flat), where the route can be progressed in three different ways based on the call and, in each instance, the QB's eyes won't come off the frontside of the route until he reaches his 4th read. In this route the casual observer, such as the creator of this video, could both be inclined to say that the QB locks-in on his read, and misses wide open receivers, when in-fact the QB in question is strictly adhering to the rules of his offense. Furthermore, videos like this seem to punish the QB who finds his first look open and pulls the trigger.
All in all I find analysis like this not worth the time it took to put together.

Clarett's Folly wrote:I haven't watched the breakdown video but can we talk about how laughable it is for someone not on the staff suggest that they are qualified to grade a QB's performance?
You might be able to identify the route concept, and the pass protection, against a given defense but to suggest that you know the read progression and, further, that you can tell whether or not a QB is adhering to that progression is equally arrogant and moronic.
For instance, I know of a staff that runs a standard flood combo, also known as Jon Gruden's famous Spider 2 Y-Banana (take-off, flag, flat), where the route can be progressed in three different ways based on the call and, in each instance, the QB's eyes won't come off the frontside of the route until he reaches his 4th read. In this route the casual observer, such as the creator of this video, could both be inclined to say that the QB locks-in on his read, and misses wide open receivers, when in-fact the QB in question is strictly adhering to the rules of his offense. Furthermore, videos like this seem to punish the QB who finds his first look open and pulls the trigger.
All in all I find analysis like this not worth the time it took to put together.

Just stop it. I've read on the internet that TOC locks in on a receiver and holds the ball too long. I've also heard he is Andrew Maxwell 2.0.

Plus, the 7 quarter sample size of TOC's career is more than enough to form the opinion that he is not the answer.

In short, he sucks and we are doomed.

duffy munn wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:I haven't watched the breakdown video but can we talk about how laughable it is for someone not on the staff suggest that they are qualified to grade a QB's performance?
You might be able to identify the route concept, and the pass protection, against a given defense but to suggest that you know the read progression and, further, that you can tell whether or not a QB is adhering to that progression is equally arrogant and moronic.
For instance, I know of a staff that runs a standard flood combo, also known as Jon Gruden's famous Spider 2 Y-Banana (take-off, flag, flat), where the route can be progressed in three different ways based on the call and, in each instance, the QB's eyes won't come off the frontside of the route until he reaches his 4th read. In this route the casual observer, such as the creator of this video, could both be inclined to say that the QB locks-in on his read, and misses wide open receivers, when in-fact the QB in question is strictly adhering to the rules of his offense. Furthermore, videos like this seem to punish the QB who finds his first look open and pulls the trigger.
All in all I find analysis like this not worth the time it took to put together.

Just stop it. I've read on the internet that TOC locks in on a receiver and holds the ball too long. I've also heard he is Andrew Maxwell 2.0.

Plus, the 7 quarter sample size of TOC's career is more than enough to form the opinion that he is not the answer.

In short, he sucks and we are doomed.

This is solid. Your stalker will be here shortly.

I think he's a great American, a damn fine Spartan and a scholar-athlete that we can all be proud of.

Well, this thread is progressing nicely I see.

Clarett's Folly wrote:I haven't watched the breakdown video but can we talk about how laughable it is for someone not on the staff suggest that they are qualified to grade a QB's performance?
You might be able to identify the route concept, and the pass protection, against a given defense but to suggest that you know the read progression and, further, that you can tell whether or not a QB is adhering to that progression is equally arrogant and moronic.
For instance, I know of a staff that runs a standard flood combo, also known as Jon Gruden's famous Spider 2 Y-Banana (take-off, flag, flat), where the route can be progressed in three different ways based on the call and, in each instance, the QB's eyes won't come off the frontside of the route until he reaches his 4th read. In this route the casual observer, such as the creator of this video, could both be inclined to say that the QB locks-in on his read, and misses wide open receivers, when in-fact the QB in question is strictly adhering to the rules of his offense. Furthermore, videos like this seem to punish the QB who finds his first look open and pulls the trigger.
All in all I find analysis like this not worth the time it took to put together.

This is a great post. Thanks for taking the time to write this out. Makes perfect sense.

You guys have never discussed anyone's game performance before? Weird.

SeeRockCity wrote:Well, this thread is progressing nicely I see.

you're welcome

NigelUno wrote:

duffy munn wrote:

Just stop it. I've read on the internet that TOC locks in on a receiver and holds the ball too long. I've also heard he is Andrew Maxwell 2.0.

Plus, the 7 quarter sample size of TOC's career is more than enough to form the opinion that he is not the answer.

In short, he sucks and we are doomed.

This is solid. Your stalker will be here shortly.

I think he is still at the Klan rally in Vegas.

Or too busy basking in the glory of Harbs beating down the mighty Rainbow Warriors.

First, we don't know how far ahead TOC is compared to Terry and Lewerke, because we don't have practice details. But it's logical to assume that TOC is our best option for this season.

Now, as far as his performance last Friday, I'd give him a 6 out of 10. He wasn't bad, he wasn't great, but he was in the "good" neighborhood. In fact, Cook had looked worse in certain early season games even last year.

I've seen too many of these first-game shit snows to get overly concerned. Actually, the DL worries me more than TOC does. TOC has depth behind him and has weapons at skill positions. Can't say the same for the DL.

BTW, WHERE THE FUCK IS ED DAVIS?!?!?!

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:You guys have never discussed anyone's game performance before? Weird.

I think this is more an issue of legitimate criticisms of a player versus critiquing something that seems apparent but, in reality, the critic himself doesn't understand. For example last season Montae Nicholson spent the first half of the year missing a lot of tackles. In no defensive scheme would a coach want a player to miss a tackle. The problem was obvious to the casual observer, the outcome was predictably negative, so Montae Nicholson's missed tackles were a legitimate criticism.
With TO'C, against Furman, I think the issue is that it feels like he had a bad game but, other than one INT, his stats say otherwise. So if we feel like he had a bad game, but the stats are lying to us, we have to dig deeper and determine why he had a bad game so we enter these fruitless exercises where we fire up our YouTube account and play QB guru in trying to determine why someone with such a solid stat line is such a shitty QB. The problem, though, is we have no real insight as to what a given play is designed to accomplish. This is why on those QBU shows Gruden says things like "talk me though this play, what's your progression?" He can see the route but not the progression.
Fact is that TO'C got the win and had a solid stat line. I think some people are guilty of breaking down his game with the end result predetermined in their heads and, at that point, the only person you're fooling is yourself.

Time to bump this thread yet?

TERRY! TERRY! TERRY!

duffy munn wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

This is solid.  Your stalker will be here shortly.

I think he is still at the Klan rally in Vegas.

Or too busy basking in the glory of Harbs beating down the mighty Rainbow Warriors.

 (Wrong stalker.)

NigelUno wrote:

duffy munn wrote:

I think he is still at the Klan rally in Vegas.

Or too busy basking in the glory of Harbs beating down the mighty Rainbow Warriors.

 (Wrong stalker.)

Oh. He's too busy creating multiple schticks on another message board. ( sorry Travis ).

Alright, I made the mistake of watching that guy's video. What an abortion.
I gave up after 3 plays.
First play he harps on TO'C for holding on to the ball too long on the screen but doesn't acknowledge the free edge rusher in a dead sprint who, conceivably, have intercepted the pass and would've undoubtedly taken it to the house.
Second play he advocates hitting the TE hooking-up over Center but fails to point out that the TE was bracketed by 2 LB who were baiting the throw.
Third play he complains about TO'C holding the ball too long in a max protect deep play and then goes on to say he doesn't look off his WR when you can clearly see him look to the 1 WR side first and then come across to the opposite side of the formation on the (under) throw.
I don't want to start gaining a rep as O'Conner's whit knight in all of this because I am certainly of the opinion that he is far from a complete QB and definitely has a long way to go but it would be good of us to keep our criticisms grounded in reality.

He looked better than Chad Kelly last night, hopefully he takes his slot in the Heisman polls.

It'd be more fun to talk about SRC drunk posting us last night.

tGreenWay wrote:It'd be more fun to talk about SRC drunk posting us last night.

Buzzed GreenWay, I said buzzed. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Clarett's Folly wrote:Alright, I made the mistake of watching that guy's video. What an abortion.
I gave up after 3 plays.
First play he harps on TO'C for holding on to the ball too long on the screen but doesn't acknowledge the free edge rusher in a dead sprint who, conceivably, have intercepted the pass and would've undoubtedly taken it to the house.
Second play he advocates hitting the TE hooking-up over Center but fails to point out that the TE was bracketed by 2 LB who were baiting the throw.
Third play he complains about TO'C holding the ball too long in a max protect deep play and then goes on to say he doesn't look off his WR when you can clearly see him look to the 1 WR side first and then come across to the opposite side of the formation on the (under) throw.
I don't want to start gaining a rep as O'Conner's whit knight in all of this because I am certainly of the opinion that he is far from a complete QB and definitely has a long way to go but it would be good of us to keep our criticisms grounded in reality.

Well he does say "this is my first try at a little bit of film analysis"

SeeRockCity wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:It'd be more fun to talk about SRC drunk posting us last night.

Buzzed GreenWay, I said buzzed. Let's not jump to conclusions.

That would be a fun board game.

SeeRockCity wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:It'd be more fun to talk about SRC drunk posting us last night.

Buzzed GreenWay, I said buzzed. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Also, this is going to be my answer when I start buzz sexting my old girlfriends and some of the neighborhood babysitters.

SeeRockCity wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:Alright, I made the mistake of watching that guy's video. What an abortion.
I gave up after 3 plays.
First play he harps on TO'C for holding on to the ball too long on the screen but doesn't acknowledge the free edge rusher in a dead sprint who, conceivably, have intercepted the pass and would've undoubtedly taken it to the house.
Second play he advocates hitting the TE hooking-up over Center but fails to point out that the TE was bracketed by 2 LB who were baiting the throw.
Third play he complains about TO'C holding the ball too long in a max protect deep play and then goes on to say he doesn't look off his WR when you can clearly see him look to the 1 WR side first and then come across to the opposite side of the formation on the (under) throw.
I don't want to start gaining a rep as O'Conner's whit knight in all of this because I am certainly of the opinion that he is far from a complete QB and definitely has a long way to go but it would be good of us to keep our criticisms grounded in reality.

Well he does say "this is my first try at a little bit of film analysis"

Ah, I missed that part. And I will also concede that I went into watching the film pre-determined to pick it apart so I was probably not the best judge of its merits. I should probably learn to be less of a hater.

Clarett's Folly wrote:
Ah, I missed that part. And I will also concede that I went into watching the film pre-determined to pick it apart so I was probably not the best judge of its merits. I should probably learn to be less of a hater.

Actually, I went back and watched the first three plays and thought your analysis was dead on which made me very happy.

Clarett's Folly wrote:
Second play he advocates hitting the TE hooking-up over Center but fails to point out that the TE was bracketed by 2 LB who were baiting the throw.

I'm rewatching it now and yeah this kid is stupid. On this play not only was Price bracketed but TOC looked at 3 guys before deciding to run.

I'm still seeing a lot of indecision by the blockers in the running game, especially when guys are pulling. Assignment type stuff - who should I block, not sure, I'll throw a hip into this guy and reach out for this guy and whoops, they both got past me.

Also to something in the other thread - I mentioned that Comp stated that all of the stuff Furman threw at us on O was new and we didn't prepare for any of it. He specifically mentioned that they were a power team last year and said something about the Option they busted out in the 2h. In the first Furman series, Jim Miller talks about how they're a multi-dimensional offense who throws a lot of different looks at you, including some option. Hmmmm.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:
Second play he advocates hitting the TE hooking-up over Center but fails to point out that the TE was bracketed by 2 LB who were baiting the throw.

I'm rewatching it now and yeah this kid is stupid. On this play not only was Price bracketed but TOC looked at 3 guys before deciding to run.

I'm still seeing a lot of indecision by the blockers in the running game, especially when guys are pulling. Assignment type stuff - who should I block, not sure, I'll throw a hip into this guy and reach out for this guy and whoops, they both got past me.

Also to something in the other thread - I mentioned that Comp stated that all of the stuff Furman threw at us on O was new and we didn't prepare for any of it. He specifically mentioned that they were a power team last year and said something about the Option they busted out in the 2h. In the first Furman series, Jim Miller talks about how they're a multi-dimensional offense who throws a lot of different looks at you, including some option. Hmmmm.

Dantonio brought this up in his presser. They were shown stuff they hadn't prepared for. Called out the option specifically.

That's kinda why I found it odd but didn't really offer an opinion. I believe Comp, Coach D and the player or two I heard mention it. So how did Mills know? Pre production meetings?

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:That's kinda why I found it odd but didn't really offer an opinion. I believe Comp, Coach D and the player or two I heard mention it. So how did Mills know? Pre production meetings?

Yes.  It's probable Furman's SID and or coaches mentioned using a spread but all the 2015 video MSU had on Furman and any scrimmage video that may have been traded didn't show it.

Hardest things for most college QB's is to be disciplined on going through their read progression.  For most, as HS QB's they had the arm (and a go to receiver) to throw completions and if they decided to run they were good enough athletes to get positive yards a lot of the time.

Hoyer, Cousins and Cook all had their moments but for the most part were very disciplined pocket QB's who patiently waited and went through progressions.  TOC didn't look any worse than QB's on the other teams that won Labor Day weekend.  

We can be critical but this is it for him.  He's putting pressure on himself knowing unlike the last 4 QB's he's not getting an extra year.

First off, I haven't played an organized down of football in over 40 years, so I don't know what a QB is supposed to do or not do.  Don't have a clue of what his 'progressions' are.

But I do remember my buddy and me seeing the stats that come up on the scoreboards and seeing that O'Connor was something like 8-11.  We both agreed that it didn't seem like he was hitting at that high of a percentage.

So my point is, what's wrong in throwing to the the first receiver you're 'locked into' if he's open and you're hitting at close to 80%?  If the guys open, then just throw it to him.  No need to overthink this.

Frank Ricard wrote:First off, I haven't played an organized down of football in over 40 years, so I don't know what a QB is supposed to do or not do.  Don't have a clue of what his 'progressions' are.

But I do remember my buddy and me seeing the stats that come up on the scoreboards and seeing that O'Connor was something like 8-11.  We both agreed that it didn't seem like he was hitting at that high of a percentage.

So my point is, what's wrong in throwing to the the first receiver you're 'locked into' if he's open and you're hitting at close to 80%?  If the guys open, then just throw it to him.  No need to overthink this.

This hits almost perfectly on all of my points. I think the issue is that, as you alluded to, it didn't feel like TOC had a good game but when we all saw his stat line we realized he did so we attempted to pick apart his performance to explain how he made good numbers seem so pedestrian. People enjoy using terms like "locks on to receivers" and "doesn't go through his progressions" because it's not easily quantifiable and sounds footbally but I think 9 out of 10 people who level such criticisms are completely unqualified to make that assessment.

Believe me, I could take almost any QB's performance from over last weekend and convince people that he is actually the beneficiary of dumb luck rather than a competent QB by saying things like "he got away with that throw today," or "that window won't be there against Ohio State."

No need to overthink this, indeed. TOC had a good game despite the fact the team, as a whole, looked lethargic and unmotivated.

He's pretty hot. I'd do him.

Dendrobates wrote:He's pretty hot. I'd do him.

And then there's this side of the discussion.

Dendrobates wrote:He's pretty hot. I'd do him.

Let's see how you feel after he loses a game. Women can be finicky. Just sayin'

Okay, I couldn't resist.  I went back and watched the 2nd half (offense only) of the Maryland game.  Here's how TOC did:

1st Drive

1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 9 Down – Run
3rd and seven – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 2 – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 7 – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 3 – Run
3rd and 3 – O’Connor option run inside
1st and G – Run
Touchdown  (Runs were all Holmes except the run option which O’Connor kept).

2nd Drive

1st and 10 – Run (Scott fumbles, we recover)
1st and 10 – Run (Williams)
2nd and 7 – Pass, locks, throw is high incomplete, had Burbridge WIDE FUCKING OPEN over top but didn’t see him.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h51m11s



3rd and 7 – Pass, Another roll out to the right, finds Burbridge, but throw is high and Burbs has to make an athletic catch, drops it on the way down in good coverage.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h51m53s

Punt.

3rd Drive

1st and 10  – Run (Holmes)
2nd  and 7 – Run (Damian Terry read option)
1st  and 10  – Run
2nd and 10 – Wildcat – TFS (lol)
3rd and 10 – Pass to Burbridge – nice back shoulder throw into good man-on-man coverage

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h59m42s

1st and 10 -  Play action deep throw for Arnette but overthrows and is picked.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=2h25s

4th Drive (Damian Terry gets the series)

1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 6 – Run (TFL)
3rd and 9 – Long pass incomplete
Punt

5th Drive (3:46 to play with a 17 point lead)

1st and 10 – Run (Holmes)
2nd and 4 – (Terry in) – Run (looks like some miscommunication TFL)
3rd and 5 – (Terry in) – Option right
Punt

6th Drive

V formation we win 24-7

Frank Ricard wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:He's pretty hot. I'd do him.

Let's see how you feel after he loses a game. Women can be finicky. Just sayin'

Despite yesterday's performance, I'll bet Dendro would still want to cup his balls while riding cowboy on TOC. Dendro, your thoughts?

SeeRockCity wrote:Okay, I couldn't resist.  I went back and watched the 2nd half (offense only) of the Maryland game.  Here's how TOC did:

1st Drive

1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 9 Down – Run
3rd and seven – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 2 – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 7 – Run
1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 3 – Run
3rd and 3 – O’Connor option run inside
1st and G – Run
Touchdown  (Runs were all Holmes except the run option which O’Connor kept).

2nd Drive

1st and 10 – Run (Scott fumbles, we recover)
1st and 10 – Run (Williams)
2nd and 7 – Pass, locks, throw is high incomplete, had Burbridge WIDE FUCKING OPEN over top but didn’t see him.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h51m11s



3rd and 7 – Pass, Another roll out to the right, finds Burbridge, but throw is high and Burbs has to make an athletic catch, drops it on the way down in good coverage.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h51m53s

Punt.

3rd Drive

1st and 10  – Run (Holmes)
2nd  and 7 – Run (Damian Terry read option)
1st  and 10  – Run
2nd and 10 – Wildcat – TFS (lol)
3rd and 10 – Pass to Burbridge – nice back shoulder throw into good man-on-man coverage

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=1h59m42s

1st and 10 -  Play action deep throw for Arnette but overthrows and is picked.

https://youtu.be/MOISmKvWU4s?t=2h25s

4th Drive (Damian Terry gets the series)

1st and 10 – Run
2nd and 6 – Run (TFL)
3rd and 9 – Long pass incomplete
Punt

5th Drive (3:46 to play with a 17 point lead)

1st and 10 – Run (Holmes)
2nd and 4 – (Terry in) – Run (looks like some miscommunication TFL)
3rd and 5 – (Terry in) – Option right
Punt

6th Drive

V formation we win 24-7

Thanks, Rocky.