Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated..

xsanguine wrote:The Crusades couldn't end Islamic terrorism... politicians and their mercenaries won't either.

I would love for you to expand on the reasons for the crusades. I had not heard it was to defeat islamic terrorism.

Yeah, I don't know that Urban wanted to quell Muslim terrorism as much as he just felt he/the church was entitled to the Holy Land. Of course, you can certainly use a lot of reasons as justifying killing people in the name of the lord

Rocinante wrote:

xsanguine wrote:The Crusades couldn't end Islamic terrorism... politicians and their mercenaries won't either.

I would love for you to expand on the reasons for the crusades.  I had not heard it was to defeat islamic terrorism.

The Crusades were not in response to the 7th and 8th century westward expansion of Muslim Turks.

It was because whites have a natural, inherent hatred for brown people that no other race of benevolent people have.

You mean there was an empire that was expanding and another empire went in to counteract it? That sounds like conventional warfare to me. How exactly is it related to Islamic Terrorism again?

Rocinante wrote:You mean there was an empire that was expanding and another empire went in to counteract it? That sounds like conventional warfare to me. How exactly is it related to Islamic Terrorism again?

You're right. It's only recently that the enslavement of non-Muslims, child brides, systematic rape have been used in an attempt to establish a Caliphate world-wide.

xsanguine wrote:

Rocinante wrote:You mean there was an empire that was expanding and another empire went in to counteract it? That sounds like conventional warfare to me. How exactly is it related to Islamic Terrorism again?

You're right. It's only recently that the enslavement of non-Muslims, child brides, systematic rape have been used in an attempt to establish a Caliphate world-wide.

So wait, the muslims treated women badly and married children? Thank god those Christians that never did anything like that went in and crusaded against them.

See that? That's flippant. I'm dismissing your point. It's not a good way to have a conversation.

Rocinante wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

You're right. It's only recently that the enslavement of non-Muslims, child brides, systematic rape have been used in an attempt to establish a Caliphate world-wide.

So wait, the muslims treated women badly and married children? Thank god those Christians that never did anything like that went in and crusaded against them.

See that? That's flippant. I'm dismissing your point. It's not a good way to have a conversation.

You're fine, Roc. It doesn't bother me. I'm used to getting on here just to troll because that's all that's able to happen with the posters we have. But if your intent is to have a serious discussion I'm game and I apologize if I was operating under the status quo.

So yeah, I never said Christianity didn't do fucked up things. My point was, the other religions have evolved... Islam hasn't.

xsanguine wrote:

Rocinante wrote:

So wait, the muslims treated women badly and married children? Thank god those Christians that never did anything like that went in and crusaded against them.

See that? That's flippant. I'm dismissing your point. It's not a good way to have a conversation.

You're fine, Roc. It doesn't bother me. I'm used to getting on here just to troll because that's all that's able to happen with the posters we have. But if your intent is to have a serious discussion I'm game and I apologize if I was operating under the status quo.

So yeah, I never said Christianity didn't do fucked up things. My point was, the other religions have evolved... Islam hasn't.

I don't think it's right to call a few hundred thousand (at most) actively depraved individuals the entirety of Islam. If you remove them (the real terrorists) you have a religion that is about as oppressive as any other, in my opinion. Bottom line, I don't think the crusades are a good example of modern behavior.

Rocinante wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

You're fine, Roc. It doesn't bother me. I'm used to getting on here just to troll because that's all that's able to happen with the posters we have. But if your intent is to have a serious discussion I'm game and I apologize if I was operating under the status quo.

So yeah, I never said Christianity didn't do fucked up things. My point was, the other religions have evolved... Islam hasn't.

I don't think it's right to call a few hundred thousand (at most) actively depraved individuals the entirety of Islam.  If you remove them (the real terrorists) you have a religion that is about as oppressive as any other, in my opinion.  Bottom line, I don't think the crusades are a good example of modern behavior.

A few hundred thousand? Pew and Gallup would disagree with you.

Sam Harris explains the "donut effect"...

Pew is actually where I got my numbers. Extremism is widely rejected by mainstream Muslims. And as far as the numbers of people actually engaging in extremism, I just threw that number out there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the ballpark. I can't watch that video right now, you can explain that term to me if you want.

Rocinante wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

You're fine, Roc. It doesn't bother me. I'm used to getting on here just to troll because that's all that's able to happen with the posters we have. But if your intent is to have a serious discussion I'm game and I apologize if I was operating under the status quo.

So yeah, I never said Christianity didn't do fucked up things. My point was, the other religions have evolved... Islam hasn't.

I don't think it's right to call a few hundred thousand (at most) actively depraved individuals the entirety of Islam. If you remove them (the real terrorists) you have a religion that is about as oppressive as any other, in my opinion. Bottom line, I don't think the crusades are a good example of modern behavior.

In theory, or in practice? In theory, you may be able to sustain a tenable argument. In practice, I think you are unequivocally incorrect.

Rocinante wrote:Pew is actually where I got my numbers.  Extremism is widely rejected by mainstream Muslims.  And as far as the numbers of people actually engaging in extremism, I just threw that number out there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the ballpark.  I can't watch that video right now, you can explain that term to me if you want.

Pew Global
Pew Research (2010): 49% of Nigerian Muslims have favorable view of al-Qaeda (34% unfavorable)
23% of Indonesians have favorable view of al-Qaeda (56% unfavorable)
34% of Jordanians have favorable view of al-Qaeda
25% of Indonesians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden (59% had confidence in 2003)
1 in 5 Egyptians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden

Gallup
Gallup: 51% of Pakistanis grieve Osama bin Laden (only 11% happy over death)
44% of Pakistanis viewed Osama bin Laden as a martyr (only 28% as an oulaw)

MetroPoll
Hurriyet Daily News / Metropoll (2015): 20% of Turks support the slaughter of Charlie Hebdo staffers and cartoonists.

Al Jazeera Poll
al-Jazeera Poll (2015): 81% of respondents support the Islamic State (ISIS).

ICM Poll
ICM (Mirror) Poll 2015: 1.5 Million British Muslims support the Islamic State, about half the total population.

ICM Poll
ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24.

Pew Poll
Pew Research (2013): 19% of Muslim Americans believe suicide bombings in defense of Islam are at least partially justified (global average is 28% in countries surveyed).


There's a million of these polls. You may be right that only several hundred thousand muslims are actively engaged in violence in the name their religion... and that would be troubling. But they enjoy a large amount of ideological support.

xsanguine wrote:

Rocinante wrote:Pew is actually where I got my numbers.  Extremism is widely rejected by mainstream Muslims.  And as far as the numbers of people actually engaging in extremism, I just threw that number out there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the ballpark.  I can't watch that video right now, you can explain that term to me if you want.

Pew Global
Pew Research (2010): 49% of Nigerian Muslims have favorable view of al-Qaeda (34% unfavorable)
23% of Indonesians have favorable view of al-Qaeda (56% unfavorable)
34% of Jordanians have favorable view of al-Qaeda
25% of Indonesians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden (59% had confidence in 2003)
1 in 5 Egyptians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden

Gallup
Gallup: 51% of Pakistanis grieve Osama bin Laden (only 11% happy over death)
44% of Pakistanis viewed Osama bin Laden as a martyr (only 28% as an oulaw)

MetroPoll
Hurriyet Daily News / Metropoll (2015): 20% of Turks support the slaughter of Charlie Hebdo staffers and cartoonists.

Al Jazeera Poll
al-Jazeera Poll (2015): 81% of respondents support the Islamic State (ISIS).

ICM Poll
ICM (Mirror) Poll 2015: 1.5 Million British Muslims support the Islamic State, about half the total population.

ICM Poll
ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24.

Pew Poll
Pew Research (2013): 19% of Muslim Americans believe suicide bombings in defense of Islam are at least partially justified (global average is 28% in countries surveyed).


There's a million of these polls. You may be right that only several hundred thousand muslims are actively engaged in violence in the name their religion... and that would be troubling. But they enjoy a large amount of ideological support.

Seriously? Breitbart? Armchair thinker? Come on man.

Rocinante wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Pew Global
Pew Research (2010): 49% of Nigerian Muslims have favorable view of al-Qaeda (34% unfavorable)
23% of Indonesians have favorable view of al-Qaeda (56% unfavorable)
34% of Jordanians have favorable view of al-Qaeda
25% of Indonesians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden (59% had confidence in 2003)
1 in 5 Egyptians have "confidence" in Osama bin Laden

Gallup
Gallup: 51% of Pakistanis grieve Osama bin Laden (only 11% happy over death)
44% of Pakistanis viewed Osama bin Laden as a martyr (only 28% as an oulaw)

MetroPoll
Hurriyet Daily News / Metropoll (2015): 20% of Turks support the slaughter of Charlie Hebdo staffers and cartoonists.

Al Jazeera Poll
al-Jazeera Poll (2015): 81% of respondents support the Islamic State (ISIS).

ICM Poll
ICM (Mirror) Poll 2015: 1.5 Million British Muslims support the Islamic State, about half the total population.

ICM Poll
ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24.

Pew Poll
Pew Research (2013): 19% of Muslim Americans believe suicide bombings in defense of Islam are at least partially justified (global average is 28% in countries surveyed).


There's a million of these polls. You may be right that only several hundred thousand muslims are actively engaged in violence in the name their religion... and that would be troubling. But they enjoy a large amount of ideological support.

Seriously? Breitbart? Armchair thinker? Come on man.

You're killing the messenger?

Those polls are wrong because a news organization you don't like reported on it?

Dude, the Al Jezeera poll that Brietbart points to is a dead link, all they have is some screen shots. Meanwhile actual, quantifiable data is nowhere near those numbers. If you are going to use fake news as your source, prepare to be called out.

BBC Poll
BBC (2015): Following the Charlie Hebdo attacks, 27% of British Muslims openly support violence against cartoonists. Another 8% would not say, meaning that only 2 of 3 surveyed would say that the killings were not justified.

CSP Poll
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 24% of Muslim-Americans say that violence is justified against those who "offend Islam" (60% disagree).

CSP Poll
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 29% of Muslim-Americans agree that violence against those who insult Muhammad or the Quran is acceptable (61% disagree).

ICM Poll
ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK

Policy Exchange Poll
Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished

Here's one Dwags, Pylon, Cym Jim and Co. have in common...
NOP Research
NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a "consistently pro-freedom of speech line"

I've got many, many more if you're interested.

Data.

al-Jazeera Poll (2015): 81% of respondents support the Islamic State (ISIS).

My apologies...

Here's several other outfits reporting on the same poll;

*https://www.algemeiner.com/2015/05/25/al-jazeera-survey-shows-81-percent-support-islamic-state/

*https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/saladdin-ahmed/aljazeera-poll-81-percent-support-for-islamic-state

*http://canadafreepress.com/article/al-jazeera-poll-81-of-arabs-support-isis

*http://www.torontosun.com/2015/06/16/face-reality-many-muslims-support-isis

DWags wrote:Data.

lol

Pew Research (2007): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (27% can’t make up their minds). Only 58% reject al-Qaeda outright.

Pew Research (2011): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (14% can’t make up their minds).

Pew Global: 51% of Palestinians support Osama bin Laden 54% of Muslim Nigerians Support Osama bin Laden

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:

Double standard

I'm really not interested in your polls, though I reviewed them.  I will dismiss the CSP polls as they are known for their bias.  The ICM poll has come under fire for methodology, but it and the others do show some interesting disconnects between the values of first and second generation muslims and general society (like any immigrant population ever in history).  Mostly, I'm seeing that a large majority of muslims all over the world think terrorism is bad.  I think that's what I said.  

What are we defining as radical Islam here?  Are we now calling opinions extremism?  It seems to me that you've been fighting in the other thread against exactly that.  So it's fine for you to be okay with LGBTQ oppression, but not for Muslims to be okay with it because it... what? promotes extremism?

Rocinante wrote:I'm really not interested in your polls, though I reviewed them.  I will dismiss the CSP polls as they are known for their bias.  The ICM poll has come under fire for methodology, but it and the others do show some interesting disconnects between the values of first and second generation muslims and general society (like any immigrant population ever in history).  Mostly, I'm seeing that a large majority of muslims all over the world think terrorism is bad.  I think that's what I said.  

What are we defining as radical Islam here?  Are we now calling opinions extremism?  It seems to me that you've been fighting in the other thread against exactly that.  So it's fine for you to be okay with LGBTQ oppression, but not for Muslims to be okay with it because it... what? promotes extremism?

Is-lam-ism - (ĭs-lä′mĭz′əm, ĭz-, ĭs′lə-, ĭz′-)
n.
1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life.

I haven't suggested oppression of anyone. Referring to someone with a penis as 'he' when they want to be referred to as 'zhe' is not oppression.

Islam does, in fact, practice oppression of LGBT peoples.

Are you sure you're not late for prayers? Also, it's Friday, so I hope you remembered to fast.

I'm atheist.

But I'm not the type of atheist that believes all religions are equally destructive. I'm of the Bill Maher / Sam Harris view that some are worse than others.

Are you sure? Some of your attitudes line up pretty well with those Mooselambs.

Am I sure of what? That religions are all shit, but some religions are shittier than others?

Yeah, pretty sure.

not yet.. keep checking back.

#MAGA

Now they got exploding computers.

Ariana Grande concert explosions: 'Number of confirmed fatalities,' police say




Edit: I toned this post down. I was a little bothered at the time.

Religion of Peace.
Trump's fault.
Impeach Trump.

LooseGoose wrote:Religion of Peace.
Trump's fault.
Impeach Trump.

It could be taigs. And I'm being serious.

Blame Gerry Adams. The bog jumping pikey.

xsanguine wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:Religion of Peace.
Trump's fault.
Impeach Trump.

It could be taigs. And I'm being serious.

Blame Gerry Adams. The bog jumping pikey.

Highly doubtful. They wouldn't come back with shit as weak and cowardly as this. Likely a loner jihadist ****. Not that they didn't sink very low - killed the dads of two kids I grew up with for example.

Cym Jim wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

It could be taigs. And I'm being serious.

Blame Gerry Adams. The bog jumping pikey.

Highly doubtful. They wouldn't come back with shit as weak and cowardly as this. Likely a loner jihadist ****. Not that they didn't sink very low - killed the dads of two kids I grew up with for example.

Do a sense a little bit of respect in there for the Provos, Jim?

I have a cousin who lives in Keady (S. Armagh) and when he used to visit us when we were younger he'd tell me some nutty stories. Lived down the street from Eamon Collins (Killing Rage)

Also, Jim. I've been meaning to ask you about this...

3 Farmers Arrested in Wales for Running “Sheep Brothel”

xsanguine wrote:Also, Jim. I've been meaning to ask you about this...

3 Farmers Arrested in Wales for Running “Sheep Brothel”

Wow. Surely - an Onion-like report? We've always teased the Welsh over their fondness of sheep, but it that's just silly. Mirrored ceilings! Would love it to be true, but I very much doubt it!

xsanguine wrote:

Cym Jim wrote:

Highly doubtful. They wouldn't come back with shit as weak and cowardly as this. Likely a loner jihadist ****. Not that they didn't sink very low - killed the dads of two kids I grew up with for example.

Do a sense a little bit of respect in there for the Provos, Jim?

I have a cousin who lives in Keady (S. Armagh) and when he used to visit us when we were younger he'd tell me some nutty stories. Lived down the street from Eamon Collins (Killing Rage)

No - no respect. I have empathy and compassion for people who bore the brunt of the militaristic crap over there during the Thatcher years. It was an awful time. But while the IRA didn't attack crowds of teenage girls, but they killed plenty of kids - 2 year olds, 12 year olds, they didn't give a shit. Over here they have some bullshit legendary status, probably because folks over here were buying all their bombs and guns, but they deserve no respect.

This was part of the story around the folks I knew: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/veteran-ira-gunman-convicted-of-murder-two-irishmen-guilty-of-yorkshire-police-shootings-1500766.html

Cym Jim wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Do a sense a little bit of respect in there for the Provos, Jim?

I have a cousin who lives in Keady (S. Armagh) and when he used to visit us when we were younger he'd tell me some nutty stories. Lived down the street from Eamon Collins (Killing Rage)

No - no respect. I have empathy and compassion for people who bore the brunt of the militaristic crap over there during the Thatcher years. It was an awful time. But while the IRA didn't attack crowds of teenage girls, but they killed plenty of kids - 2 year olds, 12 year olds, they didn't give a shit. Over here they have some bullshit legendary status, probably because folks over here were buying all their bombs and guns, but they deserve no respect.

This was part of the story around the folks I knew: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/veteran-ira-gunman-convicted-of-murder-two-irishmen-guilty-of-yorkshire-police-shootings-1500766.html

There's still a lot of anger in that specific part of the country. I don't know any Protestants from NI so the only perspective I have is the Republican one. I get the impression this won't be solved for a few generations, assuming the positive trend continues as it has. Though every couple of years a new cowboy splinter group seems to pop up claiming to be the true heirs of the tri-color. Omagh really closed the door on widespread Republican support for armed struggle, though.

Sorry to hear about your friend's fathers. That part of the world was a crazy place to be a cop/soldier in the early 90's.

Reports coming out of Isreal and Saudi Arabia on Trumps visit indicate that both counties are supporting Sunni over Shiite.

So what happens when radical Sunni's get influence?
As Cym Jim pointed out, the IRA was full of people who attended mass and killed people.

GRR Spartan wrote:Reports coming out of Isreal and Saudi Arabia on Trumps visit indicate that both counties are supporting Sunni over Shiite.

So what happens when radical Sunni's get influence?
As Cym Jim pointed out, the IRA was full of people who attended mass and killed people.

Define 'radical'...