Re: Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated..

by **Watch Out Pylon!** Tue 23 May 2017 - 10:28

xsanguine wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Reports coming out of Isreal and Saudi Arabia on Trumps visit indicate that both counties are supporting Sunni over Shiite.

So what happens when radical Sunni's get influence?
As Cym Jim pointed out, the IRA was full of people who attended mass and killed people.

Define 'radical'...

Link?

Just to be clear, I'm wondering about where the graphic came from, not the pew research it says It's basing the graphic on.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 12:03

I'm not sure who created the graph. I've seen the graph in various forms over the past couple of years based on the data from various polling outfits.

Edit: Sorry Pylon, I didn't even give you what you asked for.

I got the graph from Pew Research's forum. But it's a variation of similar graphs on various forums like Reddit, etc.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 12:23

Let's play a game and see what's missing from this Slate article...

The Bombing at a Manchester Ariana Grande Show Was an Attack on Girls and Women

Christina Cauterucci, Slate.com wrote:British authorities have identified a suspect in what appears to have been a suicide bombing and an act of terrorism outside an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, England on May 22. Details are still emerging, but as of late Monday night, authorities had confirmed 19 people dead and more than 50 injured.

The victims of Monday’s bombing will almost certainly be mostly girls and women. The Grande fan demographic also includes a number of older millennial women, gay men, and general lovers of pop music, of course, but her live concerts are largely populated by tween and teenage girls and their moms. By staging the attack at a Grande show, the perpetrator or perpetrators chose to target children who may or may not have had an adult around to help them through an emergency situation.

And they targeted fans of an artist whose global brand is one of blissful, unsubdued feminine sexuality. Grande has long been the target of sexist rhetoric that has deemed her culpable for any sexual objectification or animosity that’s come her way. Her songs and wardrobe are sexy, yet she’s maintained a coy, youthful persona; the combination has led some haters to argue that she’s made her fortune by making people want to have sex with her, so whatever related harm befalls her is entirely her fault.

Like her pop-superstar predecessor Britney Spears, Grande has advanced a renegade, self-reflexive sexuality that’s threatening to the established heteropatriarchal order. If the Manchester bombing was an act of terrorism, its venue indicates that the attack was designed to terrorize young girls who idolize Grande’s image. Terrorism works by making people afraid to go about their daily lives, doing the things that make them feel human and whole: going to work, shopping at the mall, traveling by plane, dancing to Latin music at a gay club, singing along to a fun pop tune that lets young women envision themselves as powerful, sexual beings. All concertgoers whose nights ended in panic or tragedy on Monday will suffer some degree of post-traumatic consequences in the coming months and years. But the teens and children in the audience, who are still in the middle of developing their conceptions of themselves and the world, may find those notions irrevocably altered.

Some observers on Twitter are using this moment to take cheap shots at Grande’s music and roll their eyes at the makeup of her audience, as if a disproportionately young, female fanbase makes an artist somehow unserious. “MULTIPLE CONFIRMED FATALITIES at Manchester Arena. The last time I listened to Ariana Grande I almost died too,” one Boston-based journalist tweeted. Meanwhile, some reports are saying dozens of unaccompanied children are holed up at hotels, waiting alone until their parents and guardians can come find them. These girls are survivors of an orchestrated attack on girls and girlhood, a massive act of gender-based violence.

So, you see, it's not an attack based on a violent religious ideology. It's... The Patriarchy©.

by **Rocinante** Tue 23 May 2017 - 12:28

Even Trump said in his speech that violent extremism co-opts religion to further it's own gains. This attack was clearly engineered to create the most horrible visuals possible, but to try to call it an attack against women is a stretch. If there was a teletubbies concert, these fuckers would love to blow that up too. We all know WHY they do it. There's a history of violence between the West and the Middle East that is rife with civilian deaths. Terrorism uses the horrifying nature of those deaths to further the agenda of nationalism and isolationism- and it's working.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** Tue 23 May 2017 - 12:39

xsanguine wrote:I'm not sure who created the graph. I've seen the graph in various forms over the past couple of years based on the data from various polling outfits.

Edit: Sorry Pylon, I didn't even give you what you asked for.

I got the graph from Pew Research's forum. But it's a variation of similar graphs on various forums like Reddit, etc.

That's fine. I was just wondering where you got it from.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 16:11

Rocinante wrote:Even Trump said in his speech that violent extremism co-opts religion to further it's own gains. This attack was clearly engineered to create the most horrible visuals possible, but to try to call it an attack against women is a stretch. If there was a teletubbies concert, these fuckers would love to blow that up too. We all know WHY they do it. There's a history of violence between the West and the Middle East that is rife with civilian deaths. Terrorism uses the horrifying nature of those deaths to further the agenda of nationalism and isolationism- and it's working.

He's not suggesting that the religious ideology is not the primary motivation here, is he?
Because co-opting an ideology at its inception and using it for 14 centuries as just as an excuse to carry out the actual primary objective is quite the long game.

I would then ask Trump what he thinks their actual objective is if it's not to achieve a worldwide caliphate.

by **Rocinante** Tue 23 May 2017 - 16:27

xsanguine wrote:
Rocinante wrote:Even Trump said in his speech that violent extremism co-opts religion to further it's own gains. This attack was clearly engineered to create the most horrible visuals possible, but to try to call it an attack against women is a stretch. If there was a teletubbies concert, these fuckers would love to blow that up too. We all know WHY they do it. There's a history of violence between the West and the Middle East that is rife with civilian deaths. Terrorism uses the horrifying nature of those deaths to further the agenda of nationalism and isolationism- and it's working.

He's not suggesting that the religious ideology is not the primary motivation here, is he?
Because co-opting an ideology at its inception and using it for 14 centuries as just as an excuse to carry out the actual primary objective is quite the long game.

I would then ask Trump what he thinks their actual objective is if it's not to achieve a worldwide caliphate.

I hope that's what he's suggesting, because it's the truth. Power is he primary motivation.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 16:35

Rocinante wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

He's not suggesting that the religious ideology is not the primary motivation here, is he?
Because co-opting an ideology at its inception and using it for 14 centuries as just as an excuse to carry out the actual primary objective is quite the long game.

I would then ask Trump what he thinks their actual objective is if it's not to achieve a worldwide caliphate.

I hope that's what he's suggesting, because it's the truth. Power is he primary motivation.

Thats the source of virtually every social creation. I contend they actually believe it. And you aren't going to reason with people who've subscribed to an ideology that doesn't even give them a clean out for reformation.

by **Rocinante** Tue 23 May 2017 - 16:43

xsanguine wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

I hope that's what he's suggesting, because it's the truth. Power is he primary motivation.

Thats the source of virtually every social creation. I contend they actually believe it. And you aren't going to reason with people who've subscribed to an ideology that doesn't even give them a clean out for reformation.

You'll have to explain. Who actually believes what?

by **GRR Spartan** Tue 23 May 2017 - 18:25

Radical is evangelical Bible Thumper's like Eric Rudolph who are convinced they're doing God's will by assassinating doctors who were performing legal abortions.

Every sect of almost every religion I've come across seems to have a lunatic fringe. The exceptions have been Buddhists and Bahai.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 18:42

Those whom we know as Muslims believe in the tenets of Islam as described in the Quran and Hadiths.

Power/domination is certainly the evolutionary drive... just as it's the evolutionary drive in virtually every endeavor. It's not power simply for the sake of power. There's an ideology that is fueling that thirst for power where it otherwise doesn't exist. Their thirst for power stems from a belief that their quest for power is on behalf of a higher power. To please their higher power... to achieve glory in their own right in the eyes of Allah and the spoils that go along with that (heaven, virgins, etc).

That's been the goal since 622 and with a few intermissions has been consistently sought.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 18:45

GRR Spartan wrote:Radical is evangelical Bible Thumper's like Eric Rudolph who are convinced they're doing God's will by assassinating doctors who were performing legal abortions.

Every sect of almost every religion I've come across seems to have a lunatic fringe. The exceptions have been Buddhists and Bahai.

Eric Rudolph is most certainly a radical.

Now imagine having an estimated 85,000-108,000 ideologically pure and organized Eric Rudolphs with hundreds of millions more that actively support and promote those ideas through state powers.

The Irish Republican Army, at their height and their prime, had an estimated 3,000.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 19:03

Here's what we usually joke about, how Europeans respond to repeated violent attacks on their homeland succinctly put in the real world...

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 DAhf_SVJXs_AA4u_Id

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 DAhf_SVJXs_AA4u_Id

Also, notice how Islam is a race now, not a religion/ideology.

by **GRR Spartan** Tue 23 May 2017 - 21:40

Which might be why a young man who thinks he's helping a moral cause by killing young women attending an immoral concert featuring an immoral act.

by **xsanguine** Tue 23 May 2017 - 21:46

GRR Spartan wrote:Which might be why a young man who thinks he's helping a moral cause by killing young women attending an immoral concert featuring an immoral act.

Hot chicks do make dudes do weird things. Can't kill people cause dat booty got you triggered, though.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:01

British priorities immediately following a terrorist attack; Suppress free speech.

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 Lnk

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 L_Tn872_R

Where'd my Ariana pic go, dawg? Some oppressive shit keeping that to yourselves...

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 Ariana46

by **Cameron** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:07

UK's free speech must not be as robust as ours, if "hate speech" on twitter is a criminal offense.

I don't agree with Morrissey about everything, but that dude's got great big brass ones and I'm with him here.

And dat ass don't quit.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:16

Cameron wrote:UK's free speech must not be as robust as ours, if "hate speech" on twitter is a criminal offense.

I don't agree with Morrissey about everything, but that dude's got great big brass ones and I'm with him here.

And dat ass don't quit.

I'm a snowflake when it comes to free speech. I don't say dumb shit ever, outside of message boards... but you're going to tell me what sounds I can make with my mouth because you're wearing a uniform and that gives you authority over me? Fuck off...

Love me some Smiths, don't know much about Morrissey's opinions but I like where he's going here.

by **Rocinante** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:46

Maybe it's possible that there are people that understand that there is no possible positive outcome to demonizong a religion. Maybe there are smart people that understand that the best way to integration is assimilation and the best way to assimilation is acceptance. Radicalization can happen anywhere. Talk to Dillion Klebold's mom about that. But it's less apt to happen in a population that feels accepted and understood. This was again, home grown terrorism. Laws criminalizing hate speech (that is, speech that incites violence against certain groups) are in place for the protection of everyone, not just Muslims. Restricting hate speech is not cowing to extremism, it's recognizing where extremism comes from and attempting to socially engineer a society where the conditions that encourage radicalization don't exist.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:54

Rocinante wrote:Maybe it's possible that there are people that understand that there is no possible positive outcome to demonizong a religion. Maybe there are smart people that understand that the best way to integration is assimilation and the best way to assimilation is acceptance. Radicalization can happen anywhere. Talk to Dillion Klebold's mom about that. But it's less apt to happen in a population that feels accepted and understood. This was again, home grown terrorism. Laws criminalizing hate speech (that is, speech that incites violence against certain groups) are in place for the protection of everyone, not just Muslims. Restricting hate speech is not cowing to extremism, it's recognizing where extremism comes from and attempting to socially engineer a society where the conditions that encourage radicalization don't exist.

Hate speech is not where Islam came from.

If you say something that incites violence...."Get that towel head!" "Beat the fuck out of that whatever (I don't know many Arab slurs, sorry)" or something of that nature... absolutely. That's a call to action. I got no problems with that view.

Someone saying something ignorant on twitter like...."Muslims are all goat fuckers" or "We need to just deport them all and ban them" is not a call to action and is not violent. As stupid as it is to say things like that, there isn't any violence there. Giving the state the authority to police people's expressed opinions is a horribly slippery slope. C'mon Roc, you know that's a horrible idea. That's not free.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 0:56

Next thing you know it'll be illegal to draw a picture of Muhammad.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 1:07

"We need to be able to call out bad ideas. And Islam is the motherload of bad ideas." -Sam Harris

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 What-do-you-want-terrorists-why-wont-you-just-tell-us-death-do-the-infidels

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 What-do-you-want-terrorists-why-wont-you-just-tell-us-death-do-the-infidels

When I was a young buck I was one of those annoying atheists. I would pick fights with Christians in the op-ed section of the Lansing State Journal, early forms of message boards (Prodigy Classic yo), etc. No one had a problem with this. It wasn't considered "hateful" despite the fact the religious right tried hard to push that narrative in the 90's to the early 2000's. No one gave a shit and told them to fuck off. I still stand behind all of those beliefs. That part of my personal philosophy has remained steadfast.

All of a sudden, when people try to do the same thing with Islam... those same liberals that were cheering me on are calling people racist, Islamophobic, etc. Everyone seems to love this ideology in liberal circles. I don't get it. Religion is ridiculous... and when ridiculous meets randomly selected, organized violence... it becomes a much bigger problem than prayer in school or reciting the pledge.

by **Cameron** Wed 24 May 2017 - 1:12

Rocinante wrote:Maybe it's possible that there are people that understand that there is no possible positive outcome to demonizong a religion.

I'm not sure I agree (actually, I am sure that I disagree). Firstly, I think demonizing all religions is useful and positive, because I view religion as a corrosive and inhibitory element of society. But more importantly, I think that criticizing a given religion is the only realistic way that any religion will adapt and modernize. And, frankly, Islam is the fucking worst, and people should be free to speak the truth.

Maybe there are smart people that understand that the best way to integration is assimilation and the best way to assimilation is acceptance. Radicalization can happen anywhere. Talk to Dillion Klebold's mom about that. But it's less apt to happen in a population that feels accepted and understood. This was again, home grown terrorism. Laws criminalizing hate speech (that is, speech that incites violence against certain groups) are in place for the protection of everyone, not just Muslims. Restricting hate speech is not cowing to extremism, it's recognizing where extremism comes from and attempting to socially engineer a society where the conditions that encourage radicalization don't exist.

I don't buy it. What has the UK done to oppress Muslims or inhibit Islam? I'm no expert, but I would hazard a guess at "next to nothing." Are we worried about extremist Jains? Extremist Hindus?

by **Rocinante** Wed 24 May 2017 - 8:21

That's fine that you don't buy it. I actually don't find religion useful in my life either, but for many people it's what defines them. If you want your society to function, you have to go to great lengths to integrate them. If you noticed after this happened the imams were all over BBC talking about what they were doing to combat this. That's the proper avenue of action in my opinion. Shitting on a whole faith is not. It's 100% counterproductive.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Wed 24 May 2017 - 9:03

still not defeated.

however, the sexual predator did call them "evil losers" so that must've really hurt their feelings. Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 502811600

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 502811600

keep checking back.... with such a strong leader who knows more about the "evil losers" than the generals do, he'll end Evil Loserism in no time.

by Guest Wed 24 May 2017 - 10:36

Robert J Sakimano wrote:still not defeated.

however, the sexual predator did call them "evil losers" so that must've really hurt their feelings.

keep checking back.... with such a strong leader who knows more about the "evil losers" than the generals do, he'll end Evil Loserism in no time.

Speaking of Britain...

Caolan Robertson‏ @CaolanRob 5h5 hours ago
More
If we implemented the Trump travel ban, the bomber would have been stopped 2 days ago coming back from Libya (but at least we aren't racist

by **NigelUno** Wed 24 May 2017 - 10:45

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:still not defeated.

however, the sexual predator did call them "evil losers" so that must've really hurt their feelings.

keep checking back.... with such a strong leader who knows more about the "evil losers" than the generals do, he'll end Evil Loserism in no time.

Speaking of Britain...

Caolan Robertson‏ @CaolanRob 5h5 hours ago
More
If we implemented the Trump travel ban, the bomber would have been stopped 2 days ago coming back from Libya (but at least we aren't racist

I think he was a British citizen.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 11:19

Rocinante wrote:That's fine that you don't buy it. I actually don't find religion useful in my life either, but for many people it's what defines them. If you want your society to function, you have to go to great lengths to integrate them. If you noticed after this happened the imams were all over BBC talking about what they were doing to combat this. That's the proper avenue of action in my opinion. Shitting on a whole faith is not. It's 100% counterproductive.

It worked with Christianity.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 11:24

NigelUno wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Speaking of Britain...

Caolan Robertson‏ @CaolanRob 5h5 hours ago
More
If we implemented the Trump travel ban, the bomber would have been stopped 2 days ago coming back from Libya (but at least we aren't racist

I think he was a British citizen.

That's even worse because it indicates it's not a refugee/immigrant problem but a religion problem.

by Guest Wed 24 May 2017 - 11:46

xsanguine wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

I think he was a British citizen.

That's even worse because it indicates it's not a refugee/immigrant problem but a religion problem.

It's a PC problem. It's coming out now that people dropped multiple dimes on this fella and nothing was done.

The families of the victims should keep that in mind. Their government would rather be PC than protect them.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 11:56

LooseGoose wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

That's even worse because it indicates it's not a refugee/immigrant problem but a religion problem.

It's a PC problem. It's coming out now that people dropped multiple dimes on this fella and nothing was done.

The families of the victims should keep that in mind. Their government would rather be PC than protect them.

No one wants to stand up for western values and western culture out of fear of being called racist. So they cuckold themselves and they get what they got coming to them.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:03

Always the smartest guy in the room and my favorite liberal...

by **Robert J Sakimano** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:05

LooseGoose wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:still not defeated.

however, the sexual predator did call them "evil losers" so that must've really hurt their feelings.

keep checking back.... with such a strong leader who knows more about the "evil losers" than the generals do, he'll end Evil Loserism in no time.

Speaking of Britain...

Caolan Robertson‏ @CaolanRob 5h5 hours ago
More
If we implemented the Trump travel ban, the bomber would have been stopped 2 days ago coming back from Libya (but at least we aren't racist

they're definitely less racist than America is.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:06

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

Speaking of Britain...

Caolan Robertson‏ @CaolanRob 5h5 hours ago
More
If we implemented the Trump travel ban, the bomber would have been stopped 2 days ago coming back from Libya (but at least we aren't racist
they're definitely less racist than America is.

Seems to be working out real well.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:06

LooseGoose wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

That's even worse because it indicates it's not a refugee/immigrant problem but a religion problem.

It's a PC problem. It's coming out now that people dropped multiple dimes on this fella and nothing was done.

The families of the victims should keep that in mind. Their government would rather be PC than protect them.

dude - you gotta admit, calling ISIS "evil losers" is pretty darn funny.... Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 502811600

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:20

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:

It's a PC problem. It's coming out now that people dropped multiple dimes on this fella and nothing was done.

The families of the victims should keep that in mind. Their government would rather be PC than protect them.
dude - you gotta admit, calling ISIS "evil losers" is pretty darn funny....

Britain cowering in the shadow of Islam after they've murdered their children is even funnier.

We live in a world of cowards surrounded by idiots.

I was not born a man, society made me this, I am the oppressor.

I was not born a Christian I was born an infidel, I am the oppressor.

I dare not speak out against lies and whim of the simple, for I will be struck down as a sinner and oppressor.

Facts are no longer valid. They are wrong and hateful.

by **xsanguine** Wed 24 May 2017 - 12:21

Don't criticize this guy's ideology or else you're racist...

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 0898294B00000514-0-image-m-14_1446465718943

Bump When "Radical Islamic Terrorism" is Defeated.. - Page 3 0898294B00000514-0-image-m-14_1446465718943

by **Cameron** Wed 24 May 2017 - 14:29

Rocinante wrote:That's fine that you don't buy it. I actually don't find religion useful in my life either, but for many people it's what defines them. If you want your society to function, you have to go to great lengths to integrate them. If you noticed after this happened the imams were all over BBC talking about what they were doing to combat this. That's the proper avenue of action in my opinion. Shitting on a whole faith is not. It's 100% counterproductive.

I don't agree that it's 100% counterproductive. Forces advocating for change from within the religion have thus far been insufficient. Perhaps they need some outside pressure to get over the hump, they wouldn't be the first. And I certainly think that Muslim-majority nations need to be on notice that they can't continue to be the source of this type of extremism and still coexist with the global society we're trying to sustain. This shit has to stop.

by **Nordic** Wed 24 May 2017 - 16:14

xsanguine wrote:Always the smartest guy in the room and my favorite liberal...

Interesting listen

by **Rocinante** Wed 24 May 2017 - 16:15

I'm not sure I agree that Muslim nations are the source for this kind of extremism. I think there are global and historical factors that also involve the west and hegemony. But regardless, something none of you who are all "Islam is evil" are noticing is the support Muslims in Britain are lending to the recovery efforts and the investigation. It's an important point.

Edit: for Cam.

by Sponsored content