The Conscription Thread (Military Draft)

[Watch Out Pylon!]

Is it a good thing or bad thing? Discuss it here.

[The_Dude]

In general? In America?

It's a good thing in places like Israel and South Korea.

[Robert J Sakimano]

Is it a good thing or bad thing? Discuss it here.

I'm for anything that will get people engaged in the political process and to learn to ignore the mainstream media.

I think if a bunch of spoiled college-bound kids think they might actually have to go fight for their right to drink themselves silly every day of the week, they might actually pay more attention to the world around them and have respect for the less-fortunate kids who are currently serving because they had fewer opportunities at an equitable existence.

[Cameron]

[GRR Spartan]

So far Bob is making sense and Cameron is going South Park.

A less than auspicious beginning.

[Robert J Sakimano]

So far Bob is making sense and Cameron is going South Park.

A less than auspicious beginning.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

So far Bob is making sense and Cameron is going South Park.

A less than auspicious beginning.

[Cameron]

I'm going South Park (thus far) because Bob is the only one to have posted in this thread in support of the idea, and I've been around long enough to know that it's a fool's errand to seriously engage Bob on any non-Springsteen topic. If you wish to mount your defense, perhaps I'll go a little deeper. Until then, memes.

[tGreenWay]

I'm for anything that gets OTPT's head out of his ass and back on this board.

[Watch Out Pylon!]

I'm for anything that gets OTPT's head out of his ass and back on this board.

Did he go to Italy or something?

[Robert J Sakimano]

I'm going South Park (thus far) because Bob is the only one to have posted in this thread in support of the idea, and I've been around long enough to know that it's a fool's errand to seriously engage Bob on any non-Springsteen topic. If you wish to mount your defense, perhaps I'll go a little deeper. Until then, memes.

that's the important stuff.

[tGreenWay]

I'm for anything that gets OTPT's head out of his ass and back on this board.

Did he go to Italy or something?

I'm sure we'd've heard from him if he'd gone to Italy. I hear they have wifi and everything.

[GRR Spartan]

Mandatory military/ national service most importantly gives us is an idea interested electorate and eliminates the underclass of using reservists and National Guard for multiple tours of combat . Back in the day you were drafted and you did your combat tour in Viet Nam . Now you've got units being called up 2-3 times for a 6 year sign up.

Everybody loves the troops because they knew w they never have to be one of the troops.

Another benefit is it you meet a lot of people you would never know. In the USN I met people from 25-30 states. Children of Immigrants, minority folks who grew up where gangs ruled the streets and Native Americans from the Dakotas and Montana..

2-3 years of national or military service with some old style GI Bill benefits isn't going up end anyone's life.

My major point still is our national
Leaders and Federal legislators are a lot less likely to commit to war/police actions if a majority of voters in their states have skin in the game.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

I just want to go on record that since this is a made up fantasy land idea that isn't going anywhere it isn't worth typing all the things idiotic about that idea.

That is a really super bad idea grr. On basically every level you pointed out it's a bad idea.

[Cameron]

Mandatory military/ national service most importantly gives us is an idea interested electorate and eliminates the underclass of using reservists and National Guard for multiple tours of combat .  Back in the day  you were drafted and you did your combat tour in Viet Nam .  Now you've got units being called up 2-3 times for a 6 year sign up.

Everybody loves the troops because they knew w they never have to be one of the troops.  

You see a problem with people who volunteer for military service being called for multiple tours. I'm not about to defend the way we use our military presently, but those fine people knew multiple tours was a possibility when they signed up, did they not? I don't see any reason to shift the burden of military service from those who volunteered for it onto those who did not.

Another benefit is it you meet a lot of people you would never know.  In the USN I met people from 25-30 states.   Children of  Immigrants, minority folks who grew up where gangs ruled the streets and Native Americans from the Dakotas and Montana..

I can think of many better ways to accomplish this goal. I also don't see this benefit outweighing the cost of being forced to do something you don't want to do for two years.

2-3 years of national or military service with some old style GI Bill benefits isn't going up end anyone's life.

Military service absolutely can end someone's life. Don't be stupid.

My major point still is our national
Leaders and Federal legislators are a lot less likely to commit to war/police actions if a majority of voters in their states have skin in the game.

I don't have much faith that our elected leaders will magically learn to be more judicious in the use of our military over night simply because now everyone is forced to participate. And even if the end result is that our government only fights popular wars, you still end up forcing people to fight war against their will.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Cameron you didn't address the financial cost of such a massively stupid idea. Which is massive.

But also, the whole "spend ass tons more on the military so that we don't fight in wars" logic is hilariously flawed.

Also that we really need to be focusing on educating our people not teaching them how to fight.

I'm sorry this is just so stupid.

[GRR Spartan]

Those who have avoided the military can come with 100's of reasons why their lives and their careers are much too important to serve 2-3 years of active duty.

Why? Because we have a whole economc subclass who will volunteer so all those folks who love the troops never have to be one of the troops.

People like to call Social Security and Medicare entitlments but don't never think the all volunteer military is an entitlement for them.

You want peace? Its not derived by spending more millions/billions on systems. Put children of American voters in the military, see how many college students are gung ho about Syria or Iraq if they know their asses or the asses of their friends might be on the line.

Do you think Bush2 would have won re-election if his declared invasion/occupation would have called up draft eligible young people? I don't.

A majority of people of people, regardless of political idealogy are very comfortable because they have become accustomed to the sub-class of volunteers so their lives aren't interrupted.

As far as education goes, one of the casualties of the loss of unions has been apprentice programs of all kinds. Rather than sub-contracting jobs to non-military which began under Bush1 and increased expodentially under Bush2, roll back the clock.

The USN and USMC had the SeaBees and the US Army a military corp of engineers. Its clear that there is little interest in the private sector to train the skilled trades they are crying about needing, there are a lot of jobs from healthcare to IT to skilled trades that were taught in the military. If we have 1000's of trained vets hitting the street with skills we are all better off than giving Brown & Root millions to pull experienced trades out of the job pool to fufill a government contract.

Its not all about combat.

[Cameron]

Those who have avoided the military can come with 100's of reasons why their lives and their careers are much too important to serve 2-3 years of active duty.  

Why?  Because we have a whole economc subclass who will  volunteer so all those folks who love the troops never have to be one of the troops.  

People like to call Social Security and Medicare entitlments but don't never think the all volunteer military is an entitlement for them.

Okay.

You want peace?  Its not derived by spending more millions/billions on systems.  Put children of American voters in the military, see how many college students are gung ho about Syria or Iraq if they know their asses or the asses of their friends might be on the line.  

You think it's the college students who are getting us into all of these military conflicts? What are you talking about? You don't have to threaten the average college student with conscription to get them to be anti-war.

Do you think Bush2 would have won re-election if his declared invasion/occupation would have called up draft eligible young people?  I don't.  

Okay.

A majority of people of people, regardless of political idealogy are very comfortable because they have become accustomed to the sub-class of volunteers so their lives aren't interrupted.

Do you view the majority of people (of people) living in comfort as a problem? Because I do not. And if you want to refer to our current military as a sub-class, that's your prerogative.

As far as education goes, one of the casualties of the loss of unions has been apprentice programs of all kinds.  Rather than sub-contracting jobs to non-military which began under Bush1 and increased expodentially under Bush2, roll back the clock.  

The USN and USMC had the SeaBees and the US Army a military corp of engineers.  Its clear that there is little interest in the private sector to train the skilled trades they are crying about needing,  there are a lot of jobs from healthcare to IT to skilled trades that were taught in the military.  If we have 1000's of trained vets hitting the street with skills we are all better off than giving Brown & Root millions to pull experienced trades out of the job pool to fufill a government contract.  

Its not all about combat.

Again, if the goal is to increase the number of people with skilled trades training, there are far better ways to accomplish this.

[DWags]

You want peace? Its not derived by spending more millions/billions on systems. Put children of American voters in the military, see how many college students are gung ho about Syria or Iraq if they know their asses or the asses of their friends might be on the line.


A majority of people of people, regardless of political idealogy are very comfortable because they have become accustomed to the sub-class of volunteers so their lives aren't interrupted.

I'm not for conscription, but I really want people who are arm chair warriors to read the above a couple times. IMO we would do way more to find diplomatic solutions and create peace if the pussies who shout about kicking some some countries Ass had to suit up and fight or their kids had to.

I'm not for the government ever forcing you to do anything. But I agree with this part of your philosophy very much.

[The_Dude]

Yeah I never understood the angle of the military being good for your career once you get out. If you served in a war zone you likely are fucked up mentally in some way and we always hear about high # of unemployed veterans.

[GRR Spartan]

Cameron doesn't want to put his life on the line for his country.
The Dude equates veteran unemloyment to combat.

A draft means registering. It doesn't mean automatic conscription unless our country gets into an extended armed conflict like Iraq. It means needing fewer Troops and limiting National Guard enlistees to 1 combat tour

[MiamiSpartan]

GRR, while I understand and respect that you don't want our leaders sending people to war so easily, what you propose is just a really shitty way to accomplish it. You're forcing adults to spend 2-3 years of their life somewhere against their will, as some sort of punishment for what others have done (i.e., because politicians in the past have not taken the matter of sending volunteers to war as seriously as they should have, or because some people in the country don't fully grasp the consequences of supporting a war, then we're going to put EVERY 18-21 year olds in what is little more than a labor camp for the most formative years of their lives). Why not work to lobby and educate the politicians and the public about the consequences of war?

Also, prior to Iraq I and Iraq II/Afghanistan, how did congresspeople in districts with a large contingent of military families, vote in relation to military action? What did the polls say military families felt about such action?

And don't play the bullshit straw man card by saying "MiamiSpartan doesn't want to put his life on the line for the country." I'm 44 years old. I'd say the country doesn't want me more than I don't want them.

[GRR Spartan]

I'm for people registering for the draft and being called when our government decides to move troops into combat/occupy situations like Iraq.

Everyone registers. There is a lottery system. If you get lucky your birthday is picked at 365 or 366 on leap years so those born on Feb 29 are included.

There are provisions. No more calling up National Guard units for multiple combat tours. A draft pool would reduce the need for such large National Guard units and if enlistment exceeds need there is no draft. Just because you have a draft number doesn't mean everyone goes. It means everyone is eligible.

I'll stick to my premise that were don't find ourselves in the Iraq quagmire for over a decade sending in units for 2-3-4 tours if our legislators knew their re-election hinged on children of their constituants being available for combat duty.

We have this "not my thing" attitude that has created the group that consists sub class of economically challenged people who volunteer to go into the military. They have made a buffer so when you are 18 or out of HS that allows the "Well, they volunteered and they knew what might happen." entitlement attitude.

[MiamiSpartan]

I'm for people registering for the draft and being called when our government decides to move troops into combat/occupy situations like Iraq.

Everyone registers. There is a lottery system. If you get lucky your birthday is picked at 365 or 366 on leap years so those born on Feb 29 are included.

There are provisions. No more calling up National Guard units for multiple combat tours. A draft pool would reduce the need for such large National Guard units and if enlistment exceeds need there is no draft. Just because you have a draft number doesn't mean everyone goes. It means everyone is eligible.

I'll stick to my premise that were don't find ourselves in the Iraq quagmire for over a decade sending in units for 2-3-4 tours if our legislators knew their re-election hinged on children of their constituants being available for combat duty.

We have this "not my thing" attitude that has created the group that consists sub class of economically challenged people who volunteer to go into the military. They have made a buffer so when you are 18 or out of HS that allows the "Well, they volunteered and they knew what might happen." entitlement attitude.

Instead of hypotheticals, what happened in real life when it comes to districts with high numbers of military families? I assume those legislators have all been drummed out of office and replaced with someone from the opposite party? Where are the stats that show that the military families were against these wars when they started?

Your solution is to cut off your nose to spite your face. Why not work to have the leaders make better decisions when putting the volunteer army in, instead of punishing everyone else because you think the leaders are too quick to send them into danger?

Regarding the National Guard, if you can't call up units for multiple combat tours, then would those units get disbanded after their tour is over? Otherwise, what's the point in even having a National Guard? What are they going to train for on those weekends if they can't be called up?

[AnomanderRake]

I posted something similar in another thread but I'll repost my thoughts here.

All the support I am seeing for a draft is abusing it as a means to an end. The logic is that "everybody" will have skin in the game so our politicians won't be so quick to send Americans overseas to die. It's a hilariously naive narrative that doesn't hold up historically. We had a draft during Vietnam. There were protests. Politicians still sent tens of thousands of Americans overseas to die for no fucking reason.

The people whose kids get drafted may freak out, rally some support from others and protest, but then the rest of America will collectively give zero shits and continue about their lives because nationalism, patriotism and stupidity are powerful tools of propaganda and plague the USA top to bottom.

A draft doesn't address the root cause of the problem, which is that our politicians are bought and paid for by the military industrial complex.

This is like if your boss said to you "I need you to solve our overtime labor scheduling problem. We never have enough people on staff when we need them." Ok boss, why don't we just schedule everyone to work every fucking day!? It will cost us a boat load of money but we'll always have labor available for OT! Genius.

In reality all you needed was better forecasting and demand visibility to create accurate work projections to do your labor planning and have adequate buffer for overtime.

This is a really long way of me saying a draft is a fucking stupid idea, that doesn't solve the problem, causes a ton more problems, and you should feel stupid for thinking it's even remotely a good idea.

/rant over

[Cameron]

Cameron doesn't want to put his life on the line for his country.

Certainly not against my will for a cause I don't believe in. I'd have to be an idiot to do that.

We had the draft before and still fought plenty of interminable, unpopular wars. You repeatedly assert that it will be different this time, but you back it up with absolutely nothing.

[GRR Spartan]

We had a draft for WW2. Most think that was worth it.
We had a draft for Korea. It started in fall of 1950 and ceasefire was in 1954.
We had a draft for the Viet Nam war. The draft helped end that conflict.

The biggest reason I read here is no one is willing to put their name on a list/register for a draft that keeps you eligible for 4-6 years if the US decides to enter into an armed conflict that requires combat troops like Iraq is inconvenience to lives and careers.

You register at 18 and are eligible after HS or if you quit HS the day you turn 18. Go to college ? Hope your birthday isn't high on the list that year.

I do get it. No one ever has seen a reason to enlist. A number of you were 18-26 on 9-11-01. How many of you thought that was reason enough to enlist? My guess is very few because......"We have an all volunteer military"

I always hear freedom isn't free but its astounding how many tough talking assholes from Ted Nugent, Toby Keith and even some posters here talk tough about others lives and support Presidents and Congresses who let VA funds stay stagnant while demand goes up due to actions like Iraq. Then in the next breath bitch because taxes are too high and government spending is out of control.

[xsanguine]

It's not just a bad idea for the reasons others have laid out, it's also just plain evil to force an unwilling person to do anything let alone having their lives at risk for your patriot games. And, of course, any post of mine would not be complete without.... and threaten them with violence if they don't comply.

Sure, slavery does get shit done. But it's fucking evil, man.

[xsanguine]

We had a draft for WW2. Most think that was worth it.
We had a draft for Korea.  It started in fall of 1950 and ceasefire was in 1954.
We had a draft for the Viet Nam war.  The draft helped end that conflict.

The biggest reason I read here is no one is willing to put their name on a list/register for a draft that keeps you eligible for 4-6 years if the US decides to enter into an armed conflict that requires combat troops like Iraq is inconvenience to lives and careers.  

You register at 18 and are eligible after HS or if you quit HS the day you turn 18.  Go to college ?  Hope your birthday isn't high on the list that year.

I do get it.  No one ever has seen a reason to enlist.  A number of you were 18-26 on 9-11-01.  How many of you thought that was reason enough to enlist?  My guess is very few because......"We have an all volunteer military"

I always hear freedom isn't free but its astounding how many tough talking assholes from Ted Nugent, Toby Keith and even some posters here talk tough about others lives and support Presidents and Congresses who let VA funds stay stagnant while demand goes up due to actions like Iraq.  Then in the next breath bitch because taxes are too high and government spending is out of control.

I went down and took the ASVAB on 9-13-01. So glad I didn't follow through like a lot of my friends did. It would have been stupid to make a decision like that just because I was young, dumb and full of cum.

Sure, "freedom isn't free"... but it's no longer freedom if someone is forcing you through the threat of violence. So what's the point? What are you even fighting for at that point. You're either free or you aren't... and you lose any ethical stance on freedom when you take the freedom of other's away.

[Cameron]

We had a draft for WW2. Most think that was worth it.
We had a draft for Korea. It started in fall of 1950 and ceasefire was in 1954.
We had a draft for the Viet Nam war. The draft helped end that conflict.

The biggest reason I read here is no one is willing to put their name on a list/register for a draft that keeps you eligible for 4-6 years if the US decides to enter into an armed conflict that requires combat troops like Iraq is inconvenience to lives and careers.

Your reading comprehension needs work, then. And calling it an inconvenience is putting it extremely mildly.

You register at 18 and are eligible after HS or if you quit HS the day you turn 18. Go to college ? Hope your birthday isn't high on the list that year.

That's very stupid.

I do get it. No one ever has seen a reason to enlist. A number of you were 18-26 on 9-11-01. How many of you thought that was reason enough to enlist? My guess is very few because......"We have an all volunteer military"

I was 13 in 2001. I don't know how I'd have felt about things if I were older at the time, but I do know that by the time I turned 18 I was pretty staunchly anti-war and didn't feel that the military was doing worthwhile things in Iraq and Afghanistan (for the most part).

I always hear freedom isn't free but its astounding how many tough talking assholes from Ted Nugent, Toby Keith and even some posters here talk tough about others lives and support Presidents and Congresses who let VA funds stay stagnant while demand goes up due to actions like Iraq. Then in the next breath bitch because taxes are too high and government spending is out of control.

Who are the tough talking assholes in this thread? From my perspective, there is only one.

[xsanguine]

One thing it does is give even more power over your lives to the federal government. That appeals to certain people that are continuing that trend now.

[AnomanderRake]

One thing it does is give even more power over your lives to the federal government. That appeals to certain people that are continuing that trend now.

Yeah I really don't get it. We can't trust the government to even make basic legislation decisions that benefit the american people, yet we should instill a draft and make it mandatory that we entrust them with our lives and our children's lives. Astonishing ignorance.

[xsanguine]

And with the constantly changing winds of government... it's a bad precedent to set.

Honestly, if it were to come down to it... conscription would just happen. Unless there were a violent uprising against those tasked with coming to your home to either drag you to a barracks or drag you to jail... you're just going go "aww shucks" and go with the men and try to avoid engagement as much as possible should you be thrown to the battle field. Writing it down somewhere or leaving it off the books elsewhere doesn't matter much in reality.

It's still important because you must keep that idea alive. Without a culture that fosters some semblance of personal liberty... it's over, no matter how fervently you profess it.

[GRR Spartan]

There is personal liberty X.

We don't have personal liberty when driving or owning a boat or a vehicle. We need to register and buy tags. In a lot of counties you are required to register and license your dog.

My premise of an Israeli style manditory service won't happen here for a multitude of reasons. However just registering for a draft at 18 will cause more people to realize they have skin in the game.

Although DWags also disagrees read his post about thse who do end up in uniform and how service changes their vews of the world.

I am not satisfied to see an all volnteer military being used as an excuse to "Support the tropps" while standing on standing on the sidelines knowing you never have to be one of the troops.

Chances are we won't have to put draftees back into training camps and off to battle unless some President and a supporting Congress thinks Iraq redux is a good idea. The small incursions are done with elite combat volunteers and you don't need a lot of boots on the ground for lasers to mark targets for smart bombs or cruise missiles.

But when you are 18 and you know your name is on a list you are less likely to vote for the loudest sword rattler in an election.

[AnomanderRake]

This discussion is going nowhere, no new points are being raised and the premise that a human meat shield deters war has been debunked several times over the last century. The wealthy will always have loopholes to avoid a draft so it would still just be the poor and middle class getting drafted.

[Cameron]

This discussion is going nowhere, no new points are being raised and the premise that a human meat shield deters war has been debunked several times over the last century. The wealthy will always have loopholes to avoid a draft so it would still just be the poor and middle class getting drafted.

That is a very succinct way to put it.

[The_Dude]

This discussion is going nowhere, no new points are being raised and the premise that a human meat shield deters war has been debunked several times over the last century. The wealthy will always have loopholes to avoid a draft so it would still just be the poor and middle class getting drafted.

It's almost as if Congress can write laws that benefit themselves and their friends so they aren't the one sending their kids to war..

[GRR Spartan]

Goes nowhere because of gridlock just like real life. People aren't just opposed to conscription, they're even opposed to registration and a list.

Save the perfunctory "Thank you for your service" shit. It's right up there with "Thoughts and prayers".

You all want thank others because it takes you out of the mix. Nothing more. Let someone else do it.

[The_Dude]

Goes nowhere because of gridlock just like real life. People aren't just opposed to conscription, they're even opposed to registration and a list.

Save the perfunctory "Thank you for your service" shit. It's right up there with "Thoughts and prayers".

You all want thank others because it takes you out of the mix. Nothing more. Let someone else do it.

What is so hard to understand that serving in the military is simply not something most people want to do with their life?

[xsanguine]

There is personal liberty X.

We don't have personal liberty when driving or owning a boat or a vehicle.  We need to register and buy tags.  In a lot of counties you are required to register and license your dog.

My premise of an Israeli style manditory service won't happen here for a multitude of reasons.  However just registering for a draft at 18 will cause more people to realize they have skin in the game.

Although DWags also disagrees read his post about thse who do end up in uniform and how service changes their vews of the world.  

I am not satisfied to see an all volnteer military being used as an excuse to "Support the tropps" while standing on standing on the sidelines knowing you never have to be one of the troops.

Chances are we won't have to put draftees back into training camps and off to battle unless some President and a supporting Congress thinks Iraq redux is a good idea.  The small incursions are done with elite combat volunteers and you don't need a lot of boots on the ground for lasers to mark targets for smart bombs or cruise missiles.

But when you are 18 and you know your name is on a list you are less likely to vote for the loudest sword rattler in an election.

Oh I'm with you on nearly everything needing permission (registration, permits, licenses, etc) from an artificial centralized collection of individuals that have assumed a monopoly of violence over others. I don't think anyone would disagree that I've made that part of my personal philosophy very clear. And it's more examples of our lack of personal liberty. We don't have it. It's a joke. It doesn't exist. Probably never will, at least in my life time...

However, even someone like myself who will state 'you're either free or you aren't' can recognize the huge difference between having to pay the local overlord for permission to build a shed in your backyard and being forced by greedy politicians to shoot at brown/yellow/black people overseas.

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