Re: The Conscription Thread (Military Draft)

[xsanguine]

And I never do the "thank you for your service" thing. You're absolute right it's the same as "thoughts and prayers" and is simply meant to make the person vocalizing it feel better about themselves by thinking they've somehow contributed to the hero worship they admire/envy.

[MiamiSpartan]

Goes nowhere because of gridlock just like real life.  People aren't just opposed to conscription, they're even opposed to registration and a list.

Save the perfunctory "Thank you for your service" shit.  It's right up there with "Thoughts and prayers".

You all want thank others because it takes you out of the mix.  Nothing more.  Let someone else do it.

Ok, how about we say, "Fuck you for serving, and for being so gullible to do it. You're such a dumbass, doing my dirty work for me."  Is that what you want to hear?  

The pompous asshole act is getting a little tiring.  Quit acting like you know everyone here and elsewhere, and what their motivations are.  Could you generalize any more?  Hey, maybe we should generalize you, huh?  Let's try.  You keep acting so high and mighty like you had some higher calling to serve your country, but we know that everyone who joints the military just does so because they have no options in life, after not having the grades or money to get into college.  I don't know if that's true about you or not, and I really don't care.  It's not my business.  But that would be pretty fucking asinine of us to say that about you with conviction since we know very little about you.  But that's what you're doing when you're assuming why people are against the draft.  What incredible arrogance to think that everyone either thinks like you (and chooses to serve), or are too chickenshit to serve.  

I get that the "Thank you for your service" may come off as a bit disingenuous because it has become such a trendy thing to say.  But also stop and consider where that comes from.  At least as far as I remember it playing out, there was a big push after Gulf War I to thank and appreciate the vets, and NOT let them return from Iraq to get spit on like was the case with so many returning from Vietnam.  Was it common in the 80s to thank vets for their service?  Not that I recall in any way, shape, or form.  Would you prefer to get spit on? The movement to thank Vets for their service comes from a good place, an attempt to treat Vets better than they were a generation before. But you get bent out of shape about it, because you think they're really just thanking you for taking the burden off them?

I personally don't go around thanking vets because it feels awkward.  I wasn't brought up to go up and thank them.  I was, however, brought up to sincerely appreciate their service and respect the hell out of them for serving.  Even when they're pompous assholes about it.  And regardless of the twisted generalizations in your head, the reason I appreciate your and others' service is not because it got me out of serving, but because you choose to do something that could put your life in danger for the betterment of others.  Excuse the fuck out of me for respecting that.  I feel the same way about policemen and firefighters.  I feel that way about doctors and teachers, too (though without the danger to themselves for the most part).  Am I appreciative of a doctor because it meant not forcing me into 4 more years of college, or am I appreciative of a teacher because it means I don't have to teach?  No, that would be fucking stupid.  You obviously feel that by serving you did something noble.  So why get pissy if others appreciate your sacrifice?

[Cameron]

Goes nowhere because of gridlock just like real life.  People aren't just opposed to conscription, they're even opposed to registration and a list.

Save the perfunctory "Thank you for your service" shit.  It's right up there with "Thoughts and prayers".

You all want thank others because it takes you out of the mix.  Nothing more.  Let someone else do it.

Ok, how about we say, "Fuck you for serving, and for being so gullible to do it. You're such a dumbass, doing my dirty work for me."  Is that what you want to hear?  

The pompous asshole act is getting a little tiring.  Quit acting like you know everyone here and elsewhere, and what their motivations are.  Could you generalize any more?  Hey, maybe we should generalize you, huh?  Let's try.  You keep acting so high and mighty like you had some higher calling to serve your country, but we know that everyone who joints the military just does so because they have no options in life, after not having the grades or money to get into college.  I don't know if that's true about you or not, and I really don't care.  It's not my business.  But that would be pretty fucking asinine of us to say that about you with conviction since we know very little about you.  But that's what you're doing when you're assuming why people are against the draft.  What incredible arrogance to think that everyone either thinks like you (and chooses to serve), or are too chickenshit to serve.  

I get that the "Thank you for your service" may come off as a bit disingenuous because it has become such a trendy thing to say.  But also stop and consider where that comes from.  At least as far as I remember it playing out, there was a big push after Gulf War I to thank and appreciate the vets, and NOT let them return from Iraq to get spit on like was the case with so many returning from Vietnam.  Was it common in the 80s to thank vets for their service?  Not that I recall in any way, shape, or form.  Would you prefer to get spit on? The movement to thank Vets for their service comes from a good place, an attempt to treat Vets better than they were a generation before. But you get bent out of shape about it, because you think they're really just thanking you for taking the burden off them?

I personally don't go around thanking vets because it feels awkward.  I wasn't brought up to go up and thank them.  I was, however, brought up to sincerely appreciate their service and respect the hell out of them for serving.  Even when they're pompous assholes about it.  And regardless of the twisted generalizations in your head, the reason I appreciate your and others' service is not because it got me out of serving, but because you choose to do something that could put your life in danger for the betterment of others.  Excuse the fuck out of me for respecting that.  I feel the same way about policemen and firefighters.  I feel that way about doctors and teachers, too (though without the danger to themselves for the most part).  Am I appreciative of a doctor because it meant not forcing me into 4 more years of college, or am I appreciative of a teacher because it means I don't have to teach?  No, that would be fucking stupid.  You obviously feel that by serving you did something noble.  So why get pissy if others appreciate your sacrifice?

[AnomanderRake]

I do not thank soldiers for their service nor do I believe they deserve any inherent respect. I pity military personnel for being pawns in a political chess game. I'm not singling out the US military here either, I'm talking about all soldiers from all origins. Defending your homeland is one thing, traveling half way across the globe to kill is another.

Volunteer military or not, militia or terrorist organization, soldiers are crossing borders and oceans to murder other humans under false pretenses more often than not. It's a moral dilemma certainly, because the reality is that the world we currently live in is a fucked up place filled with evil people. But to me, killing others for unjust causes is dishonorable and not something I support.

Human civilization must seek to end all war if we wish to survive, not institutionalize it and force it upon our citizens.

[Cameron]

I do not thank soldiers for their service nor do I believe they deserve any inherent respect. I pity military personnel for being pawns in a political chess game. I'm not singling out the US military here either, I'm talking about all soldiers from all origins. Defending your homeland is one thing, traveling half way across the globe to kill is another.

Volunteer military or not, militia or terrorist organization, soldiers are crossing borders and oceans to murder other humans under false pretenses more often than not. It's a moral dilemma certainly, because the reality is that the world we currently live in is a fucked up place filled with evil people. But to me, killing others for unjust causes is dishonorable and not something I support.

Human civilization must seek to end all war if we wish to survive, not institutionalize it and force it upon our citizens.

This is very close to how I feel.

For some time now, I've had somewhat conflicted feelings about the military. On one hand, there are some things worth dying for and worth killing for, and some military actions are certainly just and good (fighting to stop genocide, for instance). Any person who risks his or her life to protect the innocent is a hero who deserves more than society can ever repay.

However, I can't ignore the logically inescapable conclusion that if each and every individual simply refused to participate in war, there would be no war, so in essence, every single volunteer perpetuates humanity's greatest evil. I feel I sometimes struggle to find the happy medium. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and sometimes I forget about the intentions all together.

[GRR Spartan]

I am a pompous asshole just like the other saps who served so the pompous and idealists here didn't have to risk life and limb.

Many here like living a comfortable life in Miami and elsewhere but are viscerally opposed to even being on a list that might require military service if the all volunteer force wasn't sufficient.

Your name on a list for 10 years as being available to serve is too much to ask? The odds of being called on are long. Now as long as the citizen soldiers have in Switzerland of actually be called on to defend.

I struck a nerve here. Pretty funny that as a poster who is regularly vilified for being "a lib" I have posters who are everything from self-described libertarians to progressives to conservatives who like being full throated about the direction of this country virently opposed to even the possiblity of having to
serve in its military.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

I am a pompous asshole just like the other saps who served so the pompous and idealists here didn't have to risk life and limb.

Many here like living a comfortable life in Miami and elsewhere but are viscerally opposed to even being on a list that might require military service if the all volunteer force wasn't sufficient.

Your name on a list for 10 years as being available to serve is too much to ask?  The odds of being called on are long.  Now as long as the citizen soldiers have in Switzerland of actually be called on to defend.

I struck a nerve here.  Pretty funny that as a poster who is regularly vilified for being "a lib"  I have posters who are everything from self-described libertarians to progressives to conservatives who like being full throated about the direction of this country virently opposed to even the possiblity of having to
serve in its military.

"I have posters from self described liberitarians to progressives to conservatives who all think I'm wrong."

Does that tell you anything or nah? 

I'm sorry man. But you literally wrote it yourself. Come on.

[AnomanderRake]

I am a pompous asshole just like the other saps who served so the pompous and idealists here didn't have to risk life and limb.

Many here like living a comfortable life in Miami and elsewhere but are viscerally opposed to even being on a list that might require military service if the all volunteer force wasn't sufficient.

Your name on a list for 10 years as being available to serve is too much to ask?  The odds of being called on are long.  Now as long as the citizen soldiers have in Switzerland of actually be called on to defend.

I struck a nerve here.  Pretty funny that as a poster who is regularly vilified for being "a lib"  I have posters who are everything from self-described libertarians to progressives to conservatives who like being full throated about the direction of this country virently opposed to even the possiblity of having to
serve in its military.

"I have posters from self described liberitarians to progressives to conservatives who all think I'm wrong."

Does that tell you anything or nah? 

I'm sorry man. But you literally wrote it yourself. Come on.

It's often very difficult if not impossible for veterans to come to terms with the fact that they were pawns in a political game and didn't actually protect the rest of us from any imminent danger. Cognitive dissonance is a power mental defense mechanism.

I don't think GRR even read our posts but if he did he clearly missed the point. It has nothing to do with lists, me serving, you serving, my family, your family or anyone else's rich or poor. I do not support the nationalism and blatant propaganda used to justify illegitimate murder of other people, period. It's wrong to manipulate and abuse volunteers in such a manner, and it's even worse to use a draft or conscription system to enslave your citizens for such a purpose.

[The_Dude]

If you guys knew GRR from rcmb, the dude has mental issues (maybe from the military)? He's always been mentally unhinged with personal attacks and has a way of never ever admitting he's wrong even in the face of defeat.

[MiamiSpartan]

I am a pompous asshole just like the other saps who served so the pompous and idealists here didn't have to risk life and limb.

Many here like living a comfortable life in Miami and elsewhere but are viscerally opposed to even being on a list that might require military service if the all volunteer force wasn't sufficient.

Your name on a list for 10 years as being available to serve is too much to ask?  The odds of being called on are long.  Now as long as the citizen soldiers have in Switzerland of actually be called on to defend.

I struck a nerve here.  Pretty funny that as a poster who is regularly vilified for being "a lib"  I have posters who are everything from self-described libertarians to progressives to conservatives who like being full throated about the direction of this country virently opposed to even the possiblity of having to
serve in its military.

No you didn't, and no they didn't serve so that we wouldn't have to.  You served because you were too poor and too stupid to go to college.  See, we can play the ignorant generalization game all day if you want.

All of your arguments about how this would keep us from unnecessary wars, etc., have been shot down, so the only thing you're left with is making bullshit generalizations about people you haven't met.  

But the argument of yours that I really don't understand is this "list" that you keep suggesting.  This already exists.  We all are (were) on a list to potentially be drafted.  So what on earth are you going on about?  

Also, you keep talking in the present tense, saying that me and others are opposed to being drafted or put on a list (that we already are/were on).  I'm 44 years old and have had two surgeries on a knee that still gives me problems.  You want to draft me, that's fine.  Chances are someone dies because they got stuck next to a gimpy guy twice their age.

Thank you for your service, GRR.

[DWags]

Lots of misunderstandin in this thread. There are literally thousands of Pat Tillmans who serve out of a sense of duty. There are tons who do it as a means to get a start in life and there are those who oppose it on moral or ideological grounds.

Whether we like it or not we need a military in the world we live in. Is anyone who opposes service really naive enough to believe if every active duty serviceman right now says fuck it I quit, because they adopt the exact same attitude, that within months our country would be radically different?

So let's deal in hypotheticals. I'm against conscription I also believe our military does immoral unethical things. Like some of you I wouldn't serve. So what if everyone had my attitude? What becomes of America and our lifestyle? It's my opinion it changes greatly and very rapidly. So until the world become mes more sane which will never happen, I'm grateful we have a military. If everyone had my attitude about serving you bet your ass I'd want a draft.

If that makes me a hypocrite so be it. But I acknowledge I am living a lifestyle because we have soldiers willing to do what I won't.

Don't tell me we don't need a military. Don't be foolish. You can oppose a draft like I do, but you can't say you're not grateful we don't have volunteers to keep our lives like they are. Whether they joined out of duty or because they were "poor and stupid"

I'm a complete hypocrite here. Maybe even a pussy. But it's my truth.

[Cameron]

Lots of misunderstandin in this thread.  There are literally thousands of Pat Tillmans who serve out of a sense of duty.  There are tons who do it as a means to get a start in life and there are those who oppose it on moral or ideological grounds.

Whether we like it or not we need a military in the world we live in. Is anyone who opposes service really naive enough to believe if every active duty serviceman right now says fuck it I quit, because they adopt the exact same attitude, that within months our country would be radically different?  

If every active serviceman and woman simultaneously said "fuck this" and quit, our country WOULD be radically different. It wouldn't necessarily be better, because as you point out, we need a military in the world we live in, but it would definitely be different.

So let's deal in hypotheticals. I'm against conscription I also believe our military does immoral unethical things. Like some of you I wouldn't serve. So what if everyone had my attitude?  What becomes of America and our lifestyle?  It's my opinion it changes greatly and very rapidly. So until the world become mes more sane which will never happen, I'm grateful we have a military. If everyone had my attitude about serving you bet your ass I'd want a draft.  

In your hypothetical, every American is of a like mind, but the rest of the world remains unchanged? It's just as (un)likely that every human, not just every American, adopts the same attitude to war and service. In a hypothetical like that, there would be no point to a draft because there would be no "other side" to fight against. That's why I don't find my position problematic.

"What if everyone thought like you, who would protect the country?"
"From what?"

If that makes me a hypocrite so be it. But I acknowledge I am living a lifestyle because we have soldiers willing to do what I won't.

Don't tell me we don't need a military.  Don't be foolish. You can oppose a draft like I do, but you can't say you're not grateful we don't have volunteers to keep our lives like they are. Whether they joined out of duty or because they were "poor and stupid"

I'm a complete hypocrite here. Maybe even a pussy. But it's my truth.

Human nature being what it is, I don't know that our species will ever progress to a point where the military is superfluous. But I can say for certain that forcing people to join the military industrial complex is precisely the wrong way to go about ridding ourselves of it.

[DWags]

Lots of misunderstandin in this thread.  There are literally thousands of Pat Tillmans who serve out of a sense of duty.  There are tons who do it as a means to get a start in life and there are those who oppose it on moral or ideological grounds.

Whether we like it or not we need a military in the world we live in. Is anyone who opposes service really naive enough to believe if every active duty serviceman right now says fuck it I quit, because they adopt the exact same attitude, that within months our country would be radically different?  

If every active serviceman and woman simultaneously said "fuck this" and quit, our country WOULD be radically different. It wouldn't necessarily be better, because as you point out, we need a military in the world we live in, but it would definitely be different.

So let's deal in hypotheticals. I'm against conscription I also believe our military does immoral unethical things. Like some of you I wouldn't serve. So what if everyone had my attitude?  What becomes of America and our lifestyle?  It's my opinion it changes greatly and very rapidly. So until the world become mes more sane which will never happen, I'm grateful we have a military. If everyone had my attitude about serving you bet your ass I'd want a draft.  

In your hypothetical, every American is of a like mind, but the rest of the world remains unchanged? It's just as (un)likely that every human, not just every American, adopts the same attitude to war and service. In a hypothetical like that, there would be no point to a draft because there would be no "other side" to fight against. That's why I don't find my position problematic.

"What if everyone thought like you, who would protect the country?"
"From what?"

If that makes me a hypocrite so be it. But I acknowledge I am living a lifestyle because we have soldiers willing to do what I won't.

Don't tell me we don't need a military.  Don't be foolish. You can oppose a draft like I do, but you can't say you're not grateful we don't have volunteers to keep our lives like they are. Whether they joined out of duty or because they were "poor and stupid"

I'm a complete hypocrite here. Maybe even a pussy. But it's my truth.

Human nature being what it is, I don't know that our species will ever progress to a point where the military is superfluous. But I can say for certain that forcing people to join the military industrial complex is precisely the wrong way to go about ridding ourselves of it.

If every American didn't serve and had my attitude of not serving you and I would welcome a draft. If you didn't you aren't serious about our country being radically different. We'd be the biggest sitting duck ever.

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