LeBron vs. Jordan

StylesGShmooth wrote:http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9117632/was-jordan-era-really-more-physical-nba

Interesting read.  

edit:  fawk, insider article.

Couldn't make it past two paragraphs, Lebron is such a cry baby pussy.

From a pure basketball perspective, I think LeBron is the more versatile player. But MJ's intangibles were just off the charts.

Jordan got 6 titles with Pippen and a bunch of scrubs.

LeBron will likely finish out the rest of his career playing with multiple Hall of Famers.

I'll take Jordan.

steveschneider wrote:


Couldn't make it past two paragraphs, Lebron is such a cry baby pussy.

Article's not really about Lebron. He's just used as the jump off for what the article is about. Anyway, read it, don't read it, whatever.

JEK wrote:From a pure basketball perspective, I think LeBron is the more versatile player. But MJ's intangibles were just off the charts.

Jordan got 6 titles with Pippen and a bunch of scrubs.

LeBron will likely finish out the rest of his career playing with multiple Hall of Famers.

I'll take Jordan.

Rodman's in the Hall of Fame...which is a total joke in my opinion, but that's a different matter.

Who does Lebron have? Wade? Bosh?

NigelUno wrote:

Rodman's in the Hall of Fame...which is a total joke in my opinion, but that's a different matter.

Who does Lebron have?  Wade?  Bosh?

Yes, and Ray Allen - a sure fire HOFer.

Also, when those guys break down, he'll just get together with a new "big 3." Maybe a big 5.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Not sure how anyone can make the case that defense is better today than in the Bad Boys era. The Pistons wouldn't have been able to put a full team on the court under today's rules. Look up "NBA rule changes" and look at how many related to helping offensive players have been adopted since 2000.

What do rule changes have to do with how well defense is played?  Do bigger, faster, stronger players play better defense?  Or is that negated by the bigger, faster, stronger players on offense?

Why wouldn't the Pistons have been able to put a full team on the court?

JEK wrote:

Yes, and Ray Allen - a sure fire HOFer.

Also, when those guys break down, he'll just get together with a new "big 3." Maybe a big 5.

Not sure Bosh is a Hall of Famer.

Jordan has had much better big men to play with. Not even close.

NigelUno wrote:

Not sure Bosh is a Hall of Famer.

Jordan has had much better big men to play with.  Not even close.

Bosh is a "big" he just doesn't play like one most of the time. Different game today.

Right now I'm watching a couple Frenchmen, a dude from the Virgin Islands, an Argentinian, a Brazilian and an Aussie bust the **** out of these dudes right now.  They still got a New Zealander, an Italian and a Canuck who haven't checked in.  

Remind me how much better the league was in the 80s.  While you're at it tell me how much better pussy was surrounded by muff.

Now there's a debate. I prefer a little muff. some well trimmed shrubs near the valley ain't bad. Definitely no jungles though. Don't know what's hanging out in there.

Ab

StylesGShmooth wrote:Now there's a debate.  I prefer a little muff.  some well trimmed shrubs near the valley ain't bad.  Definitely no jungles though.  Don't know what's hanging out in there.

Above or around?

GhettoHeisman wrote:Ab

Above or around?

Definitely above. Knew a girl named Diamond (well, she called herself Diamond) had a diamond there, beautiful.

Turtleneck wrote:MJ. No need for a poll.

Appreciate that! Thanks!

  

gHost Spartan wrote:

Cowherd is really thinking outside the box coming up with a comparison between LeBron and Jordan.

Here's a better poll

is Colin Cowturd the most annoying sports analyst of all time or just currently?

Is Cowherd an analyst?

Because if he is, then Skip Bayless is as well and he has an insurmountable lead in this race.

gHost Spartan wrote:

Cowherd is really thinking outside the box coming up with a comparison between LeBron and Jordan.

I wish he would give more high school updates.

NigelUno wrote:

What do rule changes have to do with how well defense is played?  Do bigger, faster, stronger players play better defense?  Or is that negated by the bigger, faster, stronger players on offense?

Why wouldn't the Pistons have been able to put a full team on the court?

Either you're being purposely obtuse, which is childish and annoying, or you really don't understand how rule changes benefiting the offense make defense more difficult to play. Neither is a very flattering option.

gHost Spartan wrote:

Cowherd is really thinking outside the box coming up with a comparison between LeBron and Jordan.

On today's show, he's going to be the first to do a Tiger vs. Jack comparison. Riveting stuff.

Just a sampling of the rules changes since Jordan left the game from NBA.com:

"No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.

Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.

Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline."

And of course there has been a litany of new flagrant foul rules implemented, which are intended to reduce physical play.

I'm not complaining about any of the above, I'm just pointing out the significant differences in what defenses Jordan faced could do versus what those LeBron is facing can do.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Either you're being purposely obtuse, which is childish and annoying, or you really don't understand how rule changes benefiting the offense make defense more difficult to play. Neither is a very flattering option.  

I'll take it (at this point) that you don't want to address whether players are bigger, faster, and stronger...and that has no impact on their ability to play (better) defense.

You also seem to be ignoring that changes in rules might make them play better defense, as opposed to assuming that it automatically means they are playing worse defense.

Are you saying that because Laimbeer would occasionally throw an elbow at a guy, that such an action made him a good defender? And that players today play worse defense because they don't do that (as much)?

Bizarro Fletch wrote:IMHO, Jordan was a better player because he accomplished what he did in an era that was much less friendly to offensive players.  He was was held by half of the Pistons lineup coming around screens and elbowed by the other half when he went into the lane.  Look up the NBA rules changes by year and what they've done just since 2000 is staggering. They're playing different games.

Lebron is the most physically talented player in basketball history, but that doesn't make him the best player ever.  

In the 15 seasons that Jordan played in, teams averaged 103.8 pts a game.
In the 11 seasons that James has played in, teams average 98.3 pts a game.

In the 14 season since 2000, teams average 97.6 pts a game.
In the 14 season prior to 2000, teams averaged 102.5 pts a game.

The numbers don't agree with you at all that Jordan played in a era less friendly to offensive players.

Spartan Punk wrote:
In the 15 seasons that Jordan played in, teams averaged 103.8 pts a game.
In the 11 seasons that James has played in, teams average 98.3 pts a game.  

In the 14 season since 2000, teams average 97.6 pts a game.
In the 14 season prior to 2000, teams averaged 102.5 pts a game.

The numbers don't agree with you at all that Jordan played in a era less friendly to offensive players.  

I'm sure there's another way he can spin it, just wait. The talent is so much better these days it's not even close.

NigelUno wrote:

I'll take it (at this point) that you don't want to address whether players are bigger, faster, and stronger...and that has no impact on their ability to play (better) defense.

You also seem to be ignoring that changes in rules might make them play better defense, as opposed to assuming that it automatically means they are playing worse defense.  

Are you saying that because Laimbeer would occasionally throw an elbow at a guy, that such an action made him a good defender?  And that players today play worse defense because they don't do that (as much)?  

What sort of change do you think has occurred in the size and speed of NBA players since Jordan's era, exactly? You're acting like he played during the black and white TV era. We're not comparing Lebron's peers to Bill Russel's here. They're careers almost overlapped. Tim Duncan has played against both of them. Hell, Lebron only entered the NBA one year after MJ retired for good. And suddenly in that time there's been a drastic increase in the size, speed and talent of NBA players???   

So no, I don't believe players have become significantly bigger, stronger and faster in the last few years - at least not enough to overcome the significant rules changes intended to "open up the game" (in the NBA's own words).

BTW, while we can't measure speed or talent, the average size of an NBA player in every season of Jordan's career was 6'7. The average size of an NBA player in every season of LBJ's career so far has been....6'7.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

I'm sure there's another way he can spin it, just wait. The talent is so much better these days it's not even close.

"These days?" Michael Jordan and LeBron James played against many of the same players.   

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

"These days?"  Michael Jordan and LeBron James played against many of the same players.   

You're not serious, right? Come on..

PS way to ignore the numbers. Couldn't even spin it. Damn.

Spartan Punk wrote:
In the 15 seasons that Jordan played in, teams averaged 103.8 pts a game.
In the 11 seasons that James has played in, teams average 98.3 pts a game.  

In the 14 season since 2000, teams average 97.6 pts a game.
In the 14 season prior to 2000, teams averaged 102.5 pts a game.

The numbers don't agree with you at all that Jordan played in a era less friendly to offensive players.  

PPG 2013-14: 101.0
PPG 1998-99: 91.6

Stats are fun.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

You're not serious, right? Come on..

PS way to ignore the numbers. Couldn't even spin it. Damn.

I am serious. What massive change in speed, size and talent do you think has occurred since the days when Michael Jordan played against the likes of Tim Duncan and today, when LeBron James is playing against the likes of Tim Duncan?

Has the talent level increased somewhat in 15-20 years? Probably. Is it so starkly different that defenders can miraculously overcome an overhaul in the rules that almost universally favor offensive players? I don't personally think so. But that's just sort of my OPINION, right?

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

PPG 2013-14: 101.0
PPG 1998-99: 91.6

Stats are fun.

That might be relevent if Jordan played in 1998-99, but he didn't.

Your the one who made the claim that scoring was harder in Jordan's years. Tough to admit how wrong you were huh?

With Lebron's physical tools (chemically enhanced or not) and his awareness of the game, this should be an easy discussion, however, when you add desire, or 'heart', into the equation, the balance shifts clearly to Jordan.
Someone earlier tried to spin that abortion known as "The Decision" as a positive because at the last minute ESPN gave money to charity. In truth, it was one of the most egotistical displays of self-absorption of all time. (Which occurred shortly after Lebron totally threw a playoff series against Boston)
Jordon played the hand he was dealt, and did quite well. Lebron had the opportunity to 'be the man', but chose to be the leader in the WWE-ifying of the NBA by running to Miami to create the 'super team' to battle the rest of the league.
Time and time again Lebron has shown what a narcissistic bitch he is. I don't think he would even be capable of carrying Jordan's cojones if they were ever in the league together.
Having watched LJ since he was in high school, it's actually rather disappointing.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

What sort of change do you think has occurred in the size and speed of NBA players since Jordan's era, exactly?  You're acting like he played during the black and white TV era. We're not comparing Lebron's peers to Bill Russel's here.  They're careers almost overlapped.  Tim Duncan has played against both of them.  Hell, Lebron only entered the NBA one year after MJ retired for good.  And suddenly in that time there's been a drastic increase in the size, speed and talent of NBA players???    

So no, I don't believe players have become significantly bigger, stronger and faster in the last few years - at least not enough to overcome the significant rules changes intended to "open up the game" (in the NBA's own words).

BTW, while we can't measure speed or talent, the average size of an NBA player in every season of Jordan's career was 6'7.  The average size of an NBA player in every season of LBJ's career so far has been....6'7.

The last few years? Now, you are clearly spinning. You were talking about the Bad Boys, and now you're talking about the last few years?

Comparing average heights? Come on dude. Which era was proliferated with tall guys that weren't great athletes?

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

I am serious.  What massive change in speed, size and talent do you think has occurred since the days when Michael Jordan played against the likes of Tim Duncan and today, when LeBron James is playing against the likes of Tim Duncan?  

Has the talent level increased somewhat in 15-20 years?  Probably.  Is it so starkly different that defenders can miraculously overcome an overhaul in the rules that almost universally favor offensive players?  I don't personally think so.  But that's just sort of my OPINION, right?

So, your sample size is one player?   

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

I am serious.  What massive change in speed, size and talent do you think has occurred since the days when Michael Jordan played against the likes of Tim Duncan and today, when LeBron James is playing against the likes of Tim Duncan?  

Has the talent level increased somewhat in 15-20 years?  Probably.  Is it so starkly different that defenders can miraculously overcome an overhaul in the rules that almost universally favor offensive players?  I don't personally think so.  But that's just sort of my OPINION, right?

If rules "almost universally favor offensive players", why is scoring down?

Shouldn't it be higher? And a lot higher?

Spartan Punk wrote:
That might be relevent if Jordan played in 1998-99, but he didn't.  

Your the one who made the claim that scoring was harder in Jordan's years. Tough to admit how wrong you were huh?

Ha! Damn his baseball sabbatical. You get my point, though (maybe).

I just don't get how anyone can make the case that the NBA rules changes haven't impacted defenses, but I guess some are doing just that. And apparently others think the quality of player has so vastly increased since Jordan played just one generation ago (or less), the rules changes haven't impacted them at all.

NigelUno wrote:

If rules "almost universally favor offensive players", why is scoring down?

Shouldn't it be higher?  And a lot higher?  

Not if the talent level hasn't increased as much as you think it has.

I.B. Fine wrote:With Lebron's physical tools (chemically enhanced or not) and his awareness of the game, this should be an easy discussion, however, when you add desire, or 'heart', into the equation, the balance shifts clearly to Jordan.
Someone earlier tried to spin that abortion known as "The Decision" as a positive because at the last minute ESPN gave money to charity. In truth, it was one of the most egotistical displays of self-absorption of all time.

Maybe Lebron should try to play another sport...

NigelUno wrote:

The last few years?  Now, you are clearly spinning.  You were talking about the Bad Boys, and now you're talking about the last few years?  

Comparing average heights?  Come on dude.  Which era was proliferated with tall guys that weren't great athletes?  

Not sure how long we can keep going in circles on this (actually, I know how long you can do it  ). I don't think the quality of player has increased so dramatically in one cycle of players since Michael Jordan's era that it can overcome the change of rules. You disagree.

I hate you guys - I don't even like MJ, Lebron or the NBA and I've somehow been sucked into this debate.    I gotta get some work done.

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Not sure how long we can keep going in circles on this (actually, I know how long you can do it  ).  I don't think the quality of player has increased so dramatically in one cycle of players since Michael Jordan's era that it can overcome the change of rules.  You disagree.

"one cycle of players"   

Jordan hasn't played in 11 years, and you were referencing Bad Boys teams from 25 years ago. That equals one cycle?   

NigelUno wrote:

"one cycle of players"    

Jordan hasn't played in 11 years, and you were referencing Bad Boys teams from 25 years ago.  That equals one cycle?    

Sigh. Lebron was a rookie the season after MJ retired. How many cycles of players do you consider there to be in between them, exactly? What superhuman change in "size, speed and talent" took place between the MJ era and the Lebron era?

Bizarro Fletch wrote:

Sigh.  Lebron was a rookie the season after MJ retired.  How many cycles of players do you consider there to be in between them, exactly? What superhuman change in "size, speed and talent" took place between the MJ era and the Lebron era?

Sigh.  You referenced the Bad Boys.  You don't think players are bigger, faster, and stronger than they were 25 years ago?

It's also cute how you completely refuse to acknowledge any change in athletes over the last 25 years, and use the word "superhuman" to spin. Nice work.