Good NYT Opinion piece

NigelUno wrote:Goose?

You kind of lost any credibility when you went down the 'Save the Statues' path.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

NigelUno wrote:Goose?

You kind of lost any credibility when you went down the 'Save the Statues' path.

how about the Nazi kid who wasn't at his school when a bunch of his classmates were murdered.. but, it turns out, he's actually NOT a Nazi and he actually WAS at school.  

I.B. Fine wrote:This place is a total echo chamber, guys.  If you think you can blame everything on one side, you really aren't that aware. The immigration problem really falls directly on Congress, both parties. They are the ones who are supposed to enact legislation and they have failed to do a thing-for decades.
Dems like the idea of a whole new group of voters they can tantalize with govt benefits, while repubs are keeping wages low by bringing in lots of cheap labor.
Meanwhile they all are in one constant election campaign where style counts way more than substance.
Sure, Trump is often a rude obnoxious blowhard, but he actually has accomplished  a fair bit between shoving his foot in his mouth. (I am waiting for any specifics on his racism in office) Despite your criticism of Goose's sources, the point is valid, a majority of Americans agree with him on immigration. His immigration policy is not even really new, and was practiced, though perhaps less aggressively, by Obama, yet Obama could do no wrong in the worshipful press's eyes.
If you ventured out into reality once in a while, explored alternative sources for your information and try to look at both sides, perhaps you would understand that a lot of voters are sick of being told what ignoramuses they are by pompous ass hats.

Oh, and Charles Blow is as big a Trump hater as you'll find, far from 'unbiased', as demonstrated by his one sided view of things in the article.

DWags wrote:Thing is, IB throws out the statement “ most Americans agree with the immigration “ policy of Trump. It’s not so.  And if we are going to have these debates let’s site sources.  I just googled and the best I see is 58% disagree.   Maybe he’s talking about something else.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

DWags wrote:Thing is, IB throws out the statement “ most Americans agree with the immigration “ policy of Trump. It’s not so.  And if we are going to have these debates let’s site sources.  I just googled and the best I see is 58% disagree.   Maybe he’s talking about something else.

I would love to see proper source based debates here. Let's do it for America!

Although American voters are sympathetic to immigrant families being separated at the border, they demand stronger border security and immigration enforcement. Voters do not believe that families ought to be separated when they cross illegally (88%), and they support the Trump administration’s late policy reversal, allowing families to stay together (71%), even if it was done unilaterally through an executive order.

A majority of voters want immigration reform (73%) and secure borders (76%). Voters also want stricter enforcement of immigration laws (70%). Voters support prosecuting immigrants who cross the border illegally (53%) and sending these immigrants home (64%). A majority (55%) also stand against so-called “catch and release” policies.

I.B. Fine wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I would love to see proper source based debates here. Let's do it for America!

Are you sure you want to hear from me? Several posts in this thread have informed me I must be a racist bigot, as well as a hypocrite and misogynist.among others., did you know I like to see cops shoot black guys? I didn't either.   This place is very informative. Glad all you guys are so friendly and inclusive.

Oh, I found the Havard-Harris poll here Poll

Although American voters are sympathetic to immigrant families being separated at the border, they demand stronger border security and immigration enforcement. Voters do not believe that families ought to be separated when they cross illegally (88%), and they support the Trump administration’s late policy reversal, allowing families to stay together (71%), even if it was done unilaterally through an executive order.

Yes Wags is correct, a majority of people don't like to see children ripped from their mommies, though Trump has discontinued that policy., which 71% are now OK with.

But when you ask about borders and illegal immigration, the majority is for tighter enforcement, like I said earlier.

A majority of voters want immigration reform (73%) and secure borders (76%). Voters also want stricter enforcement of immigration laws (70%). Voters support prosecuting immigrants who cross the border illegally (53%) and sending these immigrants home (64%). A majority (55%) also stand against so-called “catch and release” policies.

.
Must have just polled all of my racist pals.  You may also note that immigration reform is a Congressional responsibility, isn't that a laugh? Congress actually do something, besides campaign?

You know what else is interesting, looking for this poll, if I linked anywhere that reported on it, I would be condemned for using a biased source, yet all the 'unbiased' sources didn't seem to mention this poll. You'd almost thing that news is being tailored to specific audiences, on both sides, sort of 'preaching to the choir' so their viewers/readers are not disheartened enough to look elsewhere. I guess that's OK for most people.
.

Only his handling of immigration (46%) failed to reach a new high.

I.B. Fine wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I would love to see proper source based debates here. Let's do it for America!

Are you sure you want to hear from me? Several posts in this thread have informed me I must be a racist bigot, as well as a hypocrite and misogynist.among others., did you know I like to see cops shoot black guys? I didn't either.   This place is very informative. Glad all you guys are so friendly and inclusive.

Oh, I found the Havard-Harris poll here Poll

Although American voters are sympathetic to immigrant families being separated at the border, they demand stronger border security and immigration enforcement. Voters do not believe that families ought to be separated when they cross illegally (88%), and they support the Trump administration’s late policy reversal, allowing families to stay together (71%), even if it was done unilaterally through an executive order.

Yes Wags is correct, a majority of people don't like to see children ripped from their mommies, though Trump has discontinued that policy., which 71% are now OK with.

But when you ask about borders and illegal immigration, the majority is for tighter enforcement, like I said earlier.

A majority of voters want immigration reform (73%) and secure borders (76%). Voters also want stricter enforcement of immigration laws (70%). Voters support prosecuting immigrants who cross the border illegally (53%) and sending these immigrants home (64%). A majority (55%) also stand against so-called “catch and release” policies.

.
Must have just polled all of my racist pals.  You may also note that immigration reform is a Congressional responsibility, isn't that a laugh? Congress actually do something, besides campaign?

You know what else is interesting, looking for this poll, if I linked anywhere that reported on it, I would be condemned for using a biased source, yet all the 'unbiased' sources didn't seem to mention this poll. You'd almost thing that news is being tailored to specific audiences, on both sides, sort of 'preaching to the choir' so their viewers/readers are not disheartened enough to look elsewhere. I guess that's OK for most people.
.

I.B. Fine wrote:Here's another perspective from a very smart guy, non radical conservative leaning guy Victor Davis Hanson. I realize many of you will choose to denigrate NR as a source, but they were against Trump as long as you have, however, they have taken a more rational approach.
The Left Can’t Come to Grips with Loss of Power


....and I have a new avatar to more properly reflect the way I'm seen here.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:Here's another perspective from a very smart guy, non radical conservative leaning guy Victor Davis Hanson. I realize many of you will choose to denigrate NR as a source, but they were against Trump as long as you have, however, they have taken a more rational approach.
The Left Can’t Come to Grips with Loss of Power


....and I have a new avatar to more properly reflect the way I'm seen here.

I can agree that most of his policies are strictly Republican. I mean that regardless of what Republican was elected, a lot of the same policy shifts would have taken place. I honestly don't have that much to be upset about regarding his policies. What I can not abide is how he acts like a petulant child pretty much daily. He seems to have no idea how to govern nor does he want to learn. And we are losing influence worldwide with China filling that vacuum. He also changes direction regarding foreign affairs at a moments notice leaving the rest of the world guessing which way the wind will blow from one day to the next. He's alienating out historical allies and cozying up to dictators.

If you boil down my feeling towards Trump it's that he makes me feel embarrassed for our country for the first time in my life. I don't like feeling like this and he can't get out of office soon enough.

DWags wrote:I B here’s what I want to know, because the best man from my wedding also is able to do it. You make a statement that most Americans agree with his handling of immigration and leave out a key stat in your support and somehow, like goose and my best man, it can go unaddressed, yet you can go on like no big deal. And I can’t speak for you, but he makes that statement and will keep believing it no matter what. I read a story that said “trumps base is pretty much unreachable “ and thought it was bullshit, but sometimes I wonder

Dendrobates wrote:I haven’t read anyone’s responses , but I was going to answer Gooses question on what is Trumpism.

So my idea of it, and I think it’s the same as others (perhaps I’m wrong), is not about policy per say. It’s the hatred of people who are different (race, sexual orientation, religion). Different from saying you don’t agree, to let’s punish these people and that hate is ok and good to promote. It’s the narcissist attitude that it’s all about them, and screw everyone else.

Pretty much hatred, intolerance, and anti Science sum it up.

Trumpism does not equal republican . It’s kind of created it’s own party within the party that I think is very toxic.

I.B. Fine wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

I would love to see proper source based debates here. Let's do it for America!

Are you sure you want to hear from me? Several posts in this thread have informed me I must be a racist bigot, as well as a hypocrite and misogynist.among others., did you know I like to see cops shoot black guys? I didn't either. This place is very informative. Glad all you guys are so friendly and inclusive.

Oh, I found the Havard-Harris poll here Poll

Although American voters are sympathetic to immigrant families being separated at the border, they demand stronger border security and immigration enforcement. Voters do not believe that families ought to be separated when they cross illegally (88%), and they support the Trump administration’s late policy reversal, allowing families to stay together (71%), even if it was done unilaterally through an executive order.

Yes Wags is correct, a majority of people don't like to see children ripped from their mommies, though Trump has discontinued that policy., which 71% are now OK with.

But when you ask about borders and illegal immigration, the majority is for tighter enforcement, like I said earlier.

A majority of voters want immigration reform (73%) and secure borders (76%). Voters also want stricter enforcement of immigration laws (70%). Voters support prosecuting immigrants who cross the border illegally (53%) and sending these immigrants home (64%). A majority (55%) also stand against so-called “catch and release” policies.

.
Must have just polled all of my racist pals. You may also note that immigration reform is a Congressional responsibility, isn't that a laugh? Congress actually do something, besides campaign?

You know what else is interesting, looking for this poll, if I linked anywhere that reported on it, I would be condemned for using a biased source, yet all the 'unbiased' sources didn't seem to mention this poll. You'd almost thing that news is being tailored to specific audiences, on both sides, sort of 'preaching to the choir' so their viewers/readers are not disheartened enough to look elsewhere. I guess that's OK for most people.
.

I.B. Fine wrote:

DWags wrote:I B here’s what I want to know, because the best man from my wedding also is able to do it. You make a statement that most Americans agree with his handling of immigration and leave out a key stat in your support and somehow, like goose and my best man, it can go unaddressed, yet you can go on like no big deal. And I can’t speak for you, but he makes that statement and will keep believing it no matter what. I read a story that said “trumps base is pretty much unreachable “ and thought it was bullshit, but sometimes I wonder

You need to be specific what you are asking. You posted polls about  immigration. We totally need Legal Immigration, we are currently at virtually full employment, everyone agrees we need immigrants-legally. It's a cute little trick to try to conflate legal immigration with illegal immigration when they are 2 very different things.
Our laws relating to immigration are archaic, to be kind, and need to be overhauled, which is Congress's job, not the President's.
The President's job is to enforce the laws that are on the books. Some presidents, like, say Obama, decided which laws to enforce and which they would just ignore and do what they want. Trump, on the other hand, has decided to enforce the laws, not ignore them. I believe (perhaps wishfully) he is hoping to pressure Congress to do their job and revise the laws.
So to answer your question, people can feel he's not doing a good job with immigration, and want stronger immigration at the same time.
Given the media circus over separating families (which has been the law since before Trump) people are unhappy with what's happening. This doesn't mean we should just give up and stop enforcing immigration policy, we need to change the laws to more common sense so the border isn't a clown show.
I'll let you hold your breath waiting for Congress to seriously deal with that issue.

Heat Miser wrote:

There is no law that requires immigrant families to be separated. The decision to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry — and the decision to charge asylum seekers in criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum — are both decisions the Trump administration has made.

The people who sheltered Anne Frank were breaking the law. The people who killed her were obeying the law.

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

The Truth about Separating Kids

Oh, and love the Nazi equivalency rhetoric, good work.

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

The Truth about Separating Kids

Oh, and love the Nazi equivalency rhetoric, good work.

NigelUno wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:
You need to be specific what you are asking. You posted polls about  immigration. We totally need Legal Immigration, we are currently at virtually full employment, everyone agrees we need immigrants-legally. It's a cute little trick to try to conflate legal immigration with illegal immigration when they are 2 very different things.
Our laws relating to immigration are archaic, to be kind, and need to be overhauled, which is Congress's job, not the President's.
The President's job is to enforce the laws that are on the books. Some presidents, like, say Obama, decided which laws to enforce and which they would just ignore and do what they want. Trump, on the other hand, has decided to enforce the laws, not ignore them. I believe (perhaps wishfully) he is hoping to pressure Congress to do their job and revise the laws.
So to answer your question, people can feel he's not doing a good job with immigration, and want stronger immigration at the same time.
Given the media circus over separating families (which has been the law since before Trump) people are unhappy with what's happening. This doesn't mean we should just give up and stop enforcing immigration policy, we need to change the laws to more common sense so the border isn't a clown show.
I'll let you hold your breath waiting for Congress to seriously deal with that issue.

Should I bump that 46% number from the link and poll you provided?

Or are you just not going to address it?  

The poll found that 58 percent of voters disagree with the way Trump handles immigration policy, compared to 39 percent who agree with the president's policies

DWags wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:
The Truth about Separating Kids

Oh, and love the Nazi equivalency rhetoric, good work.

So why did Trump reverse himself on the family separation thing?

I.B. Fine wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Should I bump that 46% number from the link and poll you provided?

Or are you just not going to address it?  

From Quinnipiac:

The poll found that 58 percent of voters disagree with the way Trump handles immigration policy, compared to 39 percent who agree with the president's policies

.
In light of all the drama about separating families this is not surprising, and as I state above, not inconsistent with wanting better policies and tighter control of legal and illegal immigration.
Again, it's Congress's job to pass the laws.

and thanks again for your tolerance in throwing around those Nazi references. Those never get old..

Heat Miser wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

The Truth about Separating Kids

Oh, and love the Nazi equivalency rhetoric, good work.

If that's too rough for you snowflake, segregation was legal too. And Japanese internment camps. There are thousands of stupid laws in this country that go unenforced every day. The "we're just enforcing the law" excuse is just that. You can rationalize it all you want, but it's morally repugnant.