tOfficial General History Thread

[MiamiSpartan]

I know we've had some various history threads here and there about certain topics/anniversaries, but those are kind of random and hard to search for. So maybe a thread for big things or little random things that anyone comes across of historical significance.

This is as good a day as any to start it. What a week of anniversaries from the American side in WWII.

June 4, 1942 - Battle of Midway started and peaked, specifically the "Five Minutes That Changed The World" (some also say 6 minutes, some say 4 minutes, so I use 5). The battle officially continued for 2-3 more days.

June 5, 1944 - Rome captured. Something else the following day really took the headlines away from Rome.

June 6, 1944 - D-Day of course. Words never do it justice.

[MiamiSpartan]

I don't remember if these photos were posted here in the past, but this woman colorizes/restores old photos, and she is absolutely incredible. It's a true art form.

Here is a link to some of her D-Day collection: https://marinamaral.com/dday-75-in-color-june-6-1944/

[tGreenWay]

So grateful for their sacrifices. I can’t begin to imagine the amount of courage each of them had to muster just to get off their transports, knowing what they were about to face.

[MiamiSpartan]

Anniversary of the first day of Gettysburg today.

Here's an article from the National Park Service about a young officer that was killed. He was a member of the first graduating class of State Agricultural College, a class of only 7 people. Spartans Will.

A Young Officer of Great Promise:” The Fate of 2nd Lieutenant Gilbert Arnold Dickey of the 24th Michigan Infantry

[Jake from State Farm]

Got into a discussion about the origins of the Civil War the other day with my nephew. He claims it was in no way about slavery and completely about taxation without representation. Of course he grew up in Florida.

[aualum06]

Got into a discussion about the origins of the Civil War the other day with my nephew. He claims it was in no way about slavery and completely about taxation without representation. Of course he grew up in Florida.

All roads lead to slavery. Many different grievances but all roads lead to slavery

[MiamiSpartan]

Got into a discussion about the origins of the Civil War the other day with my nephew. He claims it was in no way about slavery and completely about taxation without representation. Of course he grew up in Florida.

It kind of boggles the mind that people ignore that the actual Confederates themselves said it was because of slavery. All of the other "reasons" (taxes, state rights, economic reasons) were just by products of slavery.

My daughter (8th grade) learned about the Civil War this year, and I was happy/relieved to see that they taught it from a more of a Union perspective. I was worried they would teach it in the context of a war that "we" (the South) lost. Granted, South Florida is hardly "The South", with most people descended from Yankees, Spaniards, or slaves.

[DWags]

While slavery was the big issue it was wrapped in the term “states rights” vs federal control. Supremacy clause etc. where did states rights end?

[aualum06]

While slavery was the big issue it was wrapped in the term “states rights” vs federal control. Supremacy clause etc. where did states rights end?

States wanted one right, to own slaves

[Bill Cain]

While I do believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery, I don’t think the perspective of the northern soldier should be ignored. The profile of the average northern soldier was that they lived in small rural farms completely removed from slave populations. If they believed the war was fought over slavery the majority would not have decided to fight for the freedom of blacks. In fact, many abandoned their regiments when Lincoln instituted the Emancipation Proclamation. The majority of northerners were not abolitionists.

For the south it was essentially a poor mans fight and a rich mans war. I believe there was a principle in the confederate government that said if you owned 20 or more slaves you were exempt from serving. Southern society was built around the institution of slavery. And southerners would do anything to defend that institution that had helped them gained so much wealth. A false notion is that cotton was starting to fade out and there was a decrease in global demand for it, but that’s not the truth. Cotton was a cash cow that’s demand was continuously growing. If you look at southern politicians there are many that declare slavery is the reason why succession was necessary. The Mexican American war sparked debate of whether slavery should spread to the new territories. And a war was eventually fought because the country could not compromise.

The war was fought over slavery if you follow the major political leaders of the time. But for the average soldier it’s a little more complicated. A northern soldier in a battlefield cried out one time,”why are you fighting here?” And a southern soldier cried out, “because you’re down here”. Most wars are fought by the working class under rich mans ideals. These soldiers found commonality before fights where soldiers from both sides would exchange goods, stories of their loved ones back home, and they’re crazy experiences. Most did not give a damn about a slave in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

They volunteered in the north because of a long period of peace and many wanted to see glory on the battlefields (this is evident through the patriotic parades in Manhattan before the war as well as other cities and popular writers glorifying the upcoming war) and because they believed they were preserving the country.....but mainly because they wanted to have glory on the battlefield and it would be a quick and easy war. The southern man fought because the slave system was the institution that propped up all of the different parts of southern society. The leaders of their governments were all slave owners.

You have to understand one thing, before the war there was an intense loyalty to the state instead of the country. If the state of Virginia decided to secede from the Union most in Virginia would follow suit. If Virginia called for 300,000 troops many would volunteer. There was a loyalty to your home and your state. After the war Americans started to see themselves more attached to the country itself than the state.

[MiamiSpartan]

Bill, thank you for dropping the schtick and posting something worthwhile.

However, while I don't disagree with much of what you said, "Why the Civil War was fought" is a very different question than "Why did the soldiers fight in the Civil War." And to be honest, that same difference applies to just about any war. Bottom line, the soldiers fight because they're asked, if not forced, to. But the reasons a war is fought in the first place comes down to the powers that be. "Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die."

With regard to slavery, every seceding state's Convention on Secession, their Articles of Secession, and/or their Declaration of Causes, mentioned slavery as the primary reason.

And then there is the VP of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens', flat out saying that the Confederate government's foundations "are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

While the South fought to keep slavery, the North fought to preserve the Union, at least initially. There were slave states that fought on the Union's side, and those states were exempt from the Emancipation Proclamation. Ultimately, those border states got rid of slavery on their own during the war, without a federal/Union mandate, as it became clear during the war that any future existence of the United States would not be able to have legalized slavery.

[Bill Cain]

Bill, thank you for dropping the schtick and posting something worthwhile.

However, while I don't disagree with much of what you said, "Why the Civil War was fought" is a very different question than "Why did the soldiers fight in the Civil War."  And to be honest, that same difference applies to just about any war.  Bottom line, the soldiers fight because they're asked, if not forced, to.  But the reasons a war is fought in the first place comes down to the powers that be.  "Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die."

With regard to slavery, every seceding state's Convention on Secession, their Articles of Secession, and/or their Declaration of Causes, mentioned slavery as the primary reason.  

And then there is the VP of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens', flat out saying that the Confederate government's foundations "are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

While the South fought to keep slavery, the North fought to preserve the Union, at least initially.  There were slave states that fought on the Union's side, and those states were exempt from the Emancipation Proclamation.  Ultimately, those border states got rid of slavery on their own during the war, without a federal/Union mandate, as it became clear during the war that any future existence of the United States would not be able to have legalized slavery.

You also have to factor in the fact that part of the reason Lincoln passed the Emancipation Proclamation was to ward off European support of the Confederacy. Having abolished the slave trade and slavery within Great Britain's borders supporting a government financially and militarily that enables slavery would have went against the ideals of Great Britain at the time. This also implies France as well.

The war was fought over economic principles that involved slavery. It's incredibly cheap and prosperous to have a large segment of the population to work without pay. But there are expenses...you have to find ways to feed that population and take care of that population in order for it to be a prosperous worker on your plantation. But the overall lack of expenses is the primary advantage of having institutional slavery. Half the country did not want the future territories to allow slavery, and the other half did. The confederacy had claimed that they sought to expand their country/empire to Mexico and the Caribbean islands. They wanted slavery to expand but the world was changing to be more humanistic and inclusive in their ideals. The confederacy would not have ever survived the war, nor 30 years. There country was operating under borrowed time.

But the war fought under economic principles that an entire way of life should not be changed because its less prosperous to the wealthy, the town, and the state.

Before you believe you are more holier than those in the past, please take off your shirt and tell me where the shirt was made. Chances are it may be in Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, or a country where the socioeconomic status of those who made the t-shirt are very low. A lot of the luxuries you enjoy are built off the backs of those who are less fortunate. It's the nature of any animal species to take advantage of others if it improves their lives and there is no threat.

But I also believe in human exceptionality and that humans progressed farther than any other species in current archeological record and this feat should be commended and we shouldn't completely adopt the belief that we are animals. We are above animals because we have a more complex concept of morality and we want more knowledge of things beyond the five senses.

Slavery was a tragedy but from a historiographical standpoint it makes sense that a mid 19th century society would enable it. I like Plato's allegory of the cave in which somebody's perspective is clouded by their experiences and their world. You can't place 21st century eyes into a 19th century world and completely understand, but you can always attempt to understand why a South Carolina mayor had a political statement in the Summer of 1864.

[Nordic]

 Bill and Miami

[MiamiSpartan]

Good stuff, Bill. I especially agree with your last paragraph. Societal sensibilities change over time, and not always for the better. It is important to look at historical events/decisions in the context of their time.

[Bill Cain]

Any recommendations on what a history major should do after graduation? I’m about to graduate.

[Cameron]

Any recommendations on what a history major should do after graduation? I’m about to graduate.

Grad school, kick the can down the road a bit.

[Cameron]

How Donald Trump Has Redefined Watergate

Fuck John Yoo, fuck lawyers, and fuck the Supreme Court.

[DWags]

Any recommendations on what a history major should do after graduation? I’m about to graduate.

Grad school, kick the can down the road a bit.

Solid.

[MiamiSpartan]

Happy 319th Birthday, Detroit! You don't look a day over 315!

Article on its early days from History Today magazine if anyone is so inclined:
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/months-past/founding-detroit

[Floyd Robertson]

Happy 319th Birthday, Detroit! You don't look a day over 315!

Article on its early days from History Today magazine if anyone is so inclined:
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/months-past/founding-detroit

Thanks for the link. Look forward to reading that.

There are some good Detroit history accounts on Twitter. This guy is one of my favorites.

@HistoryLivesDet

[Robert J Sakimano]

as good of as thread as any to post "this day in history"..

62 years ago today, Buddy Holly's plane crashed. As most folks know, Waylon Jennings was supposed to be on the chartered plane but chose to stick with the tour bus (Waylon actually wrote a line about it in a song later in life).

Legend has it that when Holly found out Waylon was taking the bus, he jokingly said "well I hope your bus breaks down" to which Waylon responded "well, I hope your plane crashes". From what I can tell, this exchange, or something similar to it, actually did happen.

also on the plane were Ritchie Valens, "The Big Bopper" J. P. Richardson, and pilot Roger Peterson.

the crash site memorial:

[MiamiSpartan]

OTD in 1933, President elect Franklin Roosevelt (they didnt get sworn in until March in those days) escaped an assassination attempt here in Miami. I never knew about this. FDR wasn't hit, but the mayor of Chicago was killed.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-escapes-assassination-in-miami

[MiamiSpartan]

Imagine living in 2021 and being added to the WWI casualty list. Luckily they were not killed. Hundreds have been over the years.

[tw]1381316617192275974?s=19[/tw]

It's insane the millions of tons of unexploded munitions that remain on the WWI battlefields, despite tens of thousands of tons being removed each year.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

I’m only onto the third of seven here but I thought this was interesting and I thought you might too. It’s not very positive of Spartans, so ya know, trigger warning.

https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/

I think it’s a little unfortunate that they mention 300 so much, as you’ll notice if you just skim it, because it’s obviously a comic book movie that shouldn’t be taken seriously- but when you read it it points out that it’s just an allegory for all of our commonly understood ideas for what Spartans were like. It’s not an in depth critique of an old movie that was clearly over the top.

[DWags]

I’m only onto the third of seven here but I thought this was interesting and I thought you might too. It’s not very positive of Spartans, so ya know, trigger warning.

https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/

I think it’s a little unfortunate that they mention 300 so much, as you’ll notice if you just skim it, because it’s obviously a comic book movie that shouldn’t be taken seriously- but when you read it it points out that it’s just an allegory for all of our commonly understood ideas for what Spartans were like. It’s not an in depth critique of an old movie that was clearly over the top.

Thanks for this. I plan on reading it tonight. Looks good. But I guess I mean if anyone actually thought that was anywhere near reality they’re as foolish as my high school girlfriend who kept saying “oh I’m sure” during the Star Wars movie.

[Travis of the Cosmos]

Yeah, it’s not really about the movie at all, just about Spartans in general. They just constantly reference it and what was seen in there, mostly in the pictures, but once you dig in it’s pretty easy to just move along.

[MiamiSpartan]

Thanks, Travis. I look forward to reading it. Real history is often more fascinating than legend.

[MiamiSpartan]

Found this interesting about WWII Aircraft Carriers on Lake Michigan, that I don't remember hearing about before. Luxury steamboats converted to the war effort by adding a flight deck for training carrier pilots.

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/08/29/fresh-water-flattops-the-u-s-navys-forgotten-great-lakes-aircraft-carriers/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Heat Miser]

The ‘Great Men of History’ Are Great at Getting You Killed

A new book explores how Western Europe became home to the world’s ‘great’ powers … and what it cost everyone else to get there

[MiamiSpartan]

Happy 1000th Anniversary to the first European explorers in North America. For the first time, a year has been proven scientifically, and that year was 1021.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/tree-rings-radioactive-carbon-signs-vikings-north-america-rcna3383

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