Izzo admits he hasn't done a good job adjusting to the rules

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Demanding excellence as a sports fan doesn't do anything except make you frustrated. And annoy the rest of us. In very rare instances can you enact change by "demanding excellence". Might as well enjoy the ride.

Incorrect. We excellence demanded our way into dantonio and for izzo to get his head out of his ass back in 1997

Giant Moose wrote:

Blanch32 wrote:It's called demanding excellence. Granted I still wear my 2015 cotton bowl shirt with pride, but I understand their point. It's Democratic to have these types of discussions

Which 2015 shirt? The one from January 1 or the one from December 31?

The bad one

Blanch32 wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Demanding excellence as a sports fan doesn't do anything except make you frustrated. And annoy the rest of us. In very rare instances can you enact change by "demanding excellence". Might as well enjoy the ride.

Incorrect. We excellence demanded our way into dantonio and for izzo to get his head out of his ass back in 1997

Ok sport.

Blanch32 wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Demanding excellence as a sports fan doesn't do anything except make you frustrated. And annoy the rest of us. In very rare instances can you enact change by "demanding excellence". Might as well enjoy the ride.

Incorrect. We excellence demanded our way into dantonio and for izzo to get his head out of his ass back in 1997

I'm not sure you believe this but I'll pretend for a second that you do.

You did nothing but post on a message board.

If the team is bad people stop going to games and stop paying attention. Positive and negative people alike. That's when changes are made.

You guys? Just venting and wallowing. Pointless.

duffy munn wrote:Ok Vlad, I'm going to play along.

What exactly are your expectations for MSU basketball and football each year ?

We have kinda figured out that final fours in either sport are not good enough.

So tell us, what would make you happy and stop you from being such a whiny bitch ?

Well first of all, thanks for playing along. To answer your question, I don't have any expectations for either Izzo or MD. I'm just enjoying getting to the national stage and then gettin' run by the eventual national champ. It's become our "thing".

So yeah, I'm good. Just getting to the national stage already puts us ahead of 98% of the field. That we get run off the field after that, well...it is what it is. And if we should actually win an NC one of these years, well shit, I might just buy TWO t-shirts!

It's all about the t-shirts duff. Those are my expectations, nice t-shirts.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Blanch32 wrote:

Incorrect. We excellence demanded our way into dantonio and for izzo to get his head out of his ass back in 1997

I'm not sure you believe this but I'll pretend for a second that you do.

You did nothing but post on a message board.

If the team is bad people stop going to games and stop paying attention. Positive and negative people alike. That's when changes are made.

You guys? Just venting and wallowing. Pointless.

When I lived in MI I used to hold season tickets (during the Saban/BW years). When BW and JLS turned us into a national joke, I stopped renewing my tickets.

Now that I live 1400 miles away, tickets are not an option. We do what we can.

Vlad wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

I'm not sure you believe this but I'll pretend for a second that you do.

You did nothing but post on a message board.

If the team is bad people stop going to games and stop paying attention. Positive and negative people alike. That's when changes are made.

You guys? Just venting and wallowing. Pointless.

When I lived in MI I used to hold season tickets (during the Saban/BW years). When BW and JLS turned us into a national joke, I stopped renewing my tickets.

Now that I live 1400 miles away, tickets are not an option. We do what we can.

So, you're a bandwagon fan.

And you actually should have perspective on our recent success, but instead choose not to.

Our recent success is not as recent as it appears. Izzo's first 10 years were much more successful than his second 10 years.

In my opinion, he had us up to the 7th best program of all-time in his first 10 years and gaining on some other traditional powers. However, his next 10 years saw us fall to #9 when Louisville and UConn definitely moved ahead of us.

Giant Moose wrote:Our recent success is not as recent as it appears. Izzo's first 10 years were much more successful than his second 10 years.

In my opinion, he had us up to the 7th best program of all-time in his first 10 years and gaining on some other traditional powers. However, his next 10 years saw us fall to #9 when Louisville and UConn definitely moved ahead of us.

So 7 is your favorite number? Got it. Thanks.

Giant Moose wrote:Our recent success is not as recent as it appears. Izzo's first 10 years were much more successful than his second 10 years.

In my opinion, he had us up to the 7th best program of all-time in his first 10 years and gaining on some other traditional powers. However, his next 10 years saw us fall to #9 when Louisville and UConn definitely moved ahead of us.

IMO Izzo has us as the #5 team in the country, moved us up from #10 after his first 10 years, and then the next 10 years elevated us even farther. But that's just like my opinion, man, and doesn't mean shit.

NigelUno wrote:

Vlad wrote:

When I lived in MI I used to hold season tickets (during the Saban/BW years). When BW and JLS turned us into a national joke, I stopped renewing my tickets.

Now that I live 1400 miles away, tickets are not an option. We do what we can.

So, you're a bandwagon fan.

And you actually should have perspective on our recent success, but instead choose not to.

Yes, I've been a "bandwagon fan" for 30 years.

Vlad wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

So, you're a bandwagon fan.

And you actually should have perspective on our recent success, but instead choose not to.

Yes, I've been a "bandwagon fan" for 30 years.

OK.

InTenSity wrote:

Giant Moose wrote:Our recent success is not as recent as it appears. Izzo's first 10 years were much more successful than his second 10 years.

In my opinion, he had us up to the 7th best program of all-time in his first 10 years and gaining on some other traditional powers. However, his next 10 years saw us fall to #9 when Louisville and UConn definitely moved ahead of us.

IMO Izzo has us as the #5 team in the country, moved us up from #10 after his first 10 years, and then the next 10 years elevated us even farther. But that's just like my opinion, man, and doesn't mean shit.

My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

Giant Moose wrote:

InTenSity wrote:
IMO Izzo has us as the #5 team in the country, moved us up from #10 after his first 10 years, and then the next 10 years elevated us even farther. But that's just like my opinion, man, and doesn't mean shit.

My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

I think your ego is actually hurt by all of this. Not kidding.

NigelUno wrote:

Giant Moose wrote:
My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

I think your ego is actually hurt by all of this. Not kidding.

Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

Giant Moose wrote:

NigelUno wrote:



I think your ego is actually hurt by all of this. Not kidding.

Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

OMG!!! We are not the #7 All-time program anymore!!! We are barely #9!!!

OMG!!!

Giant Moose wrote:

NigelUno wrote:



I think your ego is actually hurt by all of this. Not kidding.

Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

Giant Moose wrote:

InTenSity wrote:
IMO Izzo has us as the #5 team in the country, moved us up from #10 after his first 10 years, and then the next 10 years elevated us even farther. But that's just like my opinion, man, and doesn't mean shit.

My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

Mine is based on current standings and the amount of consistency over the last 20 years. There are very few teams that are as consistent as MSU has been since the late 90's. Probably only 2 or 3 others that can even be named. Don't really give a shit about programs that haven't done anything since my grandparents were in college.

I don't really care to be honest. I will have fun rooting for the school I attended. Where we rank all time is not a concern of mine or something that crosses my mind. Might be fun for a argument with friends over beers. That would be the extent of it.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I don't really care to be honest. I will have fun rooting for the school I attended. Where we rank all time is not a concern of mine or something that crosses my mind. Might be fun for a argument with friends over beers. That would be the extent of it.

That sounds awfully close to an opinion.

InTenSity wrote:

Giant Moose wrote:
Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

Giant Moose wrote:
My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

Mine is based on current standings and the amount of consistency over the last 20 years. There are very few teams that are as consistent as MSU has been since the late 90's. Probably only 2 or 3 others that can even be named. Don't really give a shit about programs that haven't done anything since my grandparents were in college.

That is fair. I tend to factor things post-1978 more because of the tourney going to seeding but it's hard for me to discount UCLA completely. It's just such an impressive number of titles that they have.

InTenSity wrote:

Giant Moose wrote:
Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

Giant Moose wrote:
My opinion is based on national titles and then looking at other metrics. It's not just some random idea. MSU is tied for #9 in national titles, but was recently #7 and in a good spot to challenge Kansas. In the last 10 years, Kansas distanced themselves from us and Louisville and UConn very clearly jumped us.

Mine is based on current standings and the amount of consistency over the last 20 years. There are very few teams that are as consistent as MSU has been since the late 90's. Probably only 2 or 3 others that can even be named. Don't really give a shit about programs that haven't done anything since my grandparents were in college.

OMG!!! But, UCLA!!! OMG!!!

The Wisconsin game didn't even have that much to do with the new rules. MSU was just flat out fouling all over the place.

There were so many instances where a UW player would be in a difficult position to score but then MSU would bail him out by reaching. It is like an addiction.

Herbie Green wrote:The Wisconsin game didn't even have that much to do with the new rules. MSU was just flat out fouling all over the place.

There were so many instances where a UW player would be in a difficult position to score but then MSU would bail him out by reaching. It is like an addiction.

I never played organized basketball, but an old suite-mate back at MSU who played HS ball for Our Lady of the Lakes told me that fouling is either laziness or lack of quickness. You're not willing or able to move your feet faster than the other guy so you foul him.

Can any of you experts confirm?

Vlad wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:The Wisconsin game didn't even have that much to do with the new rules. MSU was just flat out fouling all over the place.

There were so many instances where a UW player would be in a difficult position to score but then MSU would bail him out by reaching. It is like an addiction.

I never played organized basketball, but an old suite-mate back at MSU who played HS ball for Our Lady of the Lakes told me that fouling is either laziness or lack of quickness. You're not willing or able to move your feet faster than the other guy so you foul him.

Can any of you experts confirm?

What about an offensive foul?

Giant Moose wrote:

NigelUno wrote:



I think your ego is actually hurt by all of this. Not kidding.

Nah, I'm just capable of objectively observing MSU's hoops program without giving Izzo God-like Paterno treatment.

Wow, that's hard. You recap our season.

"We get to the final four and we got beat bad by Duke"

Hmmm solid analysis there. You a genius.

NigelUno wrote:

Vlad wrote:

I never played organized basketball, but an old suite-mate back at MSU who played HS ball for Our Lady of the Lakes told me that fouling is either laziness or lack of quickness. You're not willing or able to move your feet faster than the other guy so you foul him.

Can any of you experts confirm?

What about an offensive foul?

Yeah, what about it?

I'm not worried. We win when it matters.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I'm not worried. We win when it matters.

It always matters. Jesus we can't laud our fricken degrees over our cock sucking Michigan neighbors. We need better athletics. Without that, they got us on both ends.

THIS SHIT IS IMPORTANT TO MY EGO

DWags wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I'm not worried. We win when it matters.

It always matters. Jesus we can't laud our fricken degrees over our cock sucking Michigan neighbors. We need better athletics. Without that, they got us on both ends.

THIS SHIT IS IMPORTANT TO MY EGO

I can see that.

Vlad wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:The Wisconsin game didn't even have that much to do with the new rules. MSU was just flat out fouling all over the place.

There were so many instances where a UW player would be in a difficult position to score but then MSU would bail him out by reaching. It is like an addiction.

I never played organized basketball, but an old suite-mate back at MSU who played HS ball for Our Lady of the Lakes told me that fouling is either laziness or lack of quickness. You're not willing or able to move your feet faster than the other guy so you foul him.

Can any of you experts confirm?

Yes, it is all about moving the feet. But I would also add in discipline. There are many times where MSU is already in good guarding position in the post. Just hold your ground and force them to take a difficult shot. We put that Haff guy on the line like 10 times in that situation.

I think fouls, defensive or offensive, should be on even footing... rather than leaving the burden on the defender to give the offensive player every opportunity to get to the basket unhindered while moving. I think fouls, for the most part, should exist only to keep players from hurting one another, "hard fouls". Smacking of the hands/arms, etc during shooting is part of that. Bracing yourself from an offensive player initiating contact with you (McQuaid getting called a lot for having his forearm out while defending on the perimeter, for example) shouldn't count as a foul, imo.

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, feel free to explain why this makes me an idiot. I'm ready to be schooled.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DWags wrote:

It always matters. Jesus we can't laud our fricken degrees over our cock sucking Michigan neighbors. We need better athletics. Without that, they got us on both ends.

THIS SHIT IS IMPORTANT TO MY EGO

I can see that.

Then post accordingly.

DWags wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I can see that.

Then post accordingly.

have I been warned?

xsanguine wrote:I think fouls, defensive or offensive, should be on even footing... rather than leaving the burden on the defender to give the offensive player every opportunity to get to the basket unhindered while moving. I think fouls, for the most part, should exist only to keep players from hurting one another, "hard fouls". Smacking of the hands/arms, etc during shooting is part of that. Bracing yourself from an offensive player initiating contact with you (McQuaid getting called a lot for having his forearm out while defending on the perimeter, for example) shouldn't count as a foul, imo.

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, feel free to explain why this makes me an idiot. I'm ready to be schooled.

I don't think Basketball is quite supposed to be a contact sport. Those in charge don't want games that are 40-39, they want high scoring games. The NCAA believes that people want to see a lot of points scored, so they are manipulating the rules to try to get the desired effect. Basically now, in order to get high scoring games, there are about 50 FT's taken. Only allowing 'hard fouls' to be called will mean a lower scoring game. Basically it appears that the NCAA wants NBA brand basketball, but they don't have the talent to produce it, so they will try to artificially inflate it.

InTenSity wrote:

xsanguine wrote:I think fouls, defensive or offensive, should be on even footing... rather than leaving the burden on the defender to give the offensive player every opportunity to get to the basket unhindered while moving. I think fouls, for the most part, should exist only to keep players from hurting one another, "hard fouls". Smacking of the hands/arms, etc during shooting is part of that. Bracing yourself from an offensive player initiating contact with you (McQuaid getting called a lot for having his forearm out while defending on the perimeter, for example) shouldn't count as a foul, imo.

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, feel free to explain why this makes me an idiot. I'm ready to be schooled.

I don't think Basketball is quite supposed to be a contact sport. Those in charge don't want games that are 40-39, they want high scoring games. The NCAA believes that people want to see a lot of points scored, so they are manipulating the rules to try to get the desired effect. Basically now, in order to get high scoring games, there are about 50 FT's taken. Only allowing 'hard fouls' to be called will mean a lower scoring game. Basically it appears that the NCAA wants NBA brand basketball, but they don't have the talent to produce it, so they will try to artificially inflate it.

Agree 100%

InTenSity wrote:

xsanguine wrote:I think fouls, defensive or offensive, should be on even footing... rather than leaving the burden on the defender to give the offensive player every opportunity to get to the basket unhindered while moving. I think fouls, for the most part, should exist only to keep players from hurting one another, "hard fouls". Smacking of the hands/arms, etc during shooting is part of that. Bracing yourself from an offensive player initiating contact with you (McQuaid getting called a lot for having his forearm out while defending on the perimeter, for example) shouldn't count as a foul, imo.

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, feel free to explain why this makes me an idiot. I'm ready to be schooled.

I don't think Basketball is quite supposed to be a contact sport. Those in charge don't want games that are 40-39, they want high scoring games. The NCAA believes that people want to see a lot of points scored, so they are manipulating the rules to try to get the desired effect. Basically now, in order to get high scoring games, there are about 50 FT's taken. Only allowing 'hard fouls' to be called will mean a lower scoring game. Basically it appears that the NCAA wants NBA brand basketball, but they don't have the talent to produce it, so they will try to artificially inflate it.

That definitely makes sense. I don't think I'm articulating exactly what I mean but I do think you get my overall gist. Much appreciated.

I guess I see a disparity between the contact an offensive player is allowed to initiate and contact a defensive player is allowed to initiate. In my fucked up mind I think they should be equal but I understand why it's not. The way I see it watching a ball go into a hoop isn't any more exciting than watching a defender swipe the ball from an offensive player from behind or block a shot. I'm clearly in the minority, though.

Well, I would rather see a 40-39 game that was constantly moving than constant whistles and scoring from free throws.

It seems like the NBA has managed to limit fouling while keeping scoring up. Is that because the players eventually adjusted to the rules, they are just more skilled, or they are just letting them play or have better officials? Probably a combination of all of those.
I watch a lot of youth AAU games and they are often just full contact full court track meets. They would call fouls every 10 seconds if it was called like a college game. I don't watch high school but maybe since college players were all stars in high school they could likely dominate without having to resort to fouling and wouldn't want to risk having to go to the bench. Now they get to college and defense is really emphasized for the first time and they are matched up against an opponent with equal athleticism. Which makes me wonder if players can ever really adjust if they are just learning how to play defense at a high level.
MSU just had a practice where their hands were bound by a towel to teach them to play defense with their feet and not their hands. I suppose the next alternative would be to instruct the defender to let their man drive by them before fouling. I can't see Izzo ever teaching that.

Herbie Green wrote:Well, I would rather see a 40-39 game that was constantly moving than constant whistles and scoring from free throws.

It seems like the NBA has managed to limit fouling while keeping scoring up. Is that because the players eventually adjusted to the rules, they are just more skilled, or they are just letting them play or have better officials? Probably a combination of all of those.
I watch a lot of youth AAU games and they are often just full contact full court track meets. They would call fouls every 10 seconds if it was called like a college game. I don't watch high school but maybe since college players were all stars in high school they could likely dominate without having to resort to fouling and wouldn't want to risk having to go to the bench. Now they get to college and defense is really emphasized for the first time and they are matched up against an opponent with equal athleticism. Which makes me wonder if players can ever really adjust if they are just learning how to play defense at a high level.
MSU just had a practice where their hands were bound by a towel to teach them to play defense with their feet and not their hands. I suppose the next alternative would be to instruct the defender to let their man drive by them before fouling. I can't see Izzo ever teaching that.

They had to hold both ends of a towel with their hands above their heads in an effort to teach them to guard without using their hands and fouling.

Their hands were not "bound". Please edit that part so as not to turn Vlad on. He's acting super creepy today.

Herbie Green wrote:Well, I would rather see a 40-39 game that was constantly moving than constant whistles and scoring from free throws.

This.

NigelUno wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:Well, I would rather see a 40-39 game that was constantly moving than constant whistles and scoring from free throws.

It seems like the NBA has managed to limit fouling while keeping scoring up. Is that because the players eventually adjusted to the rules, they are just more skilled, or they are just letting them play or have better officials? Probably a combination of all of those.
I watch a lot of youth AAU games and they are often just full contact full court track meets. They would call fouls every 10 seconds if it was called like a college game. I don't watch high school but maybe since college players were all stars in high school they could likely dominate without having to resort to fouling and wouldn't want to risk having to go to the bench. Now they get to college and defense is really emphasized for the first time and they are matched up against an opponent with equal athleticism. Which makes me wonder if players can ever really adjust if they are just learning how to play defense at a high level.
MSU just had a practice where their hands were bound by a towel to teach them to play defense with their feet and not their hands. I suppose the next alternative would be to instruct the defender to let their man drive by them before fouling. I can't see Izzo ever teaching that.

They had to hold both ends of a towel with their hands above their heads in an effort to teach them to guard without using their hands and fouling.

Their hands were not "bound". Please edit that part so as not to turn Vlad on. He's acting super creepy today.

Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.