Wow! MLB puts a foot up the Astros ass! Suspensions fines draft choices

steveschneider wrote:Seeing some of the dumbest takes of my life over this Astros story. Going to buy some Astros gear and show my support. Fuck the sports press.

Apparently they wore buzzers under their uniforms

aualum06 wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Seeing some of the dumbest takes of my life over this Astros story. Going to buy some Astros gear and show my support. Fuck the sports press.

Apparently they wore buzzers under their uniforms

If true I think it’s hilarious.

Heard some pitcher say he’d rather face a steroided up great hitter than a guy who knows what pitch is coming.

GRR Spartan wrote:$5M is a joke and not a deterrent if another owner wants to follow suit if it gets them a WSC trophy. They make that much on beer sales for a year.

Same for the one year off for the GM and manager. 2 years puts them out of the game so anyone else wonders if the ring is worth it.

Not surprising the MLB by laws financially protect owners.

you know the owners own the league, right? MLB/the commissioner are not some sort of government body that can police the owners however they want.

GRR Spartan wrote:$5M is a joke and not a deterrent if another owner wants to follow suit if it gets them a WSC trophy. They make that much on beer sales for a year.

Same for the one year off for the GM and manager. 2 years puts them out of the game so anyone else wonders if the ring is worth it.

Not surprising the MLB by laws financially protect owners.

Players getting suspended (and losing money) might be a deterrent. Any traded/released guy can rat it out.

NigelUno wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:$5M is a joke and not a deterrent if another owner wants to follow suit if it gets them a WSC trophy. They make that much on beer sales for a year.

Same for the one year off for the GM and manager. 2 years puts them out of the game so anyone else wonders if the ring is worth it.

Not surprising the MLB by laws financially protect owners.

Players getting suspended (and losing money) might be a deterrent. Any traded/released guy can rat it out.

manfred said he's not going to go after players

Banks2Mason wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Players getting suspended (and losing money) might be a deterrent. Any traded/released guy can rat it out.

manfred said he's not going to go after players

In this case, I believe they gave immunity for testimony. Suspending Astros players would have implications on their World Series. I don' t think the league wants to open that can of worms (nor battle with the MLBPA).

But, going forward...seems like they'll have to establish fines/suspensions if players are caught.

The suspensions/firings of managers is a decent deterrent as well.

NigelUno wrote:

Banks2Mason wrote:

manfred said he's not going to go after players

In this case, I believe they gave immunity for testimony.

nope.

DWags wrote:Heard some pitcher say he’d rather face a steroided up great hitter than a guy who knows what pitch is coming.

I saw that too. I'm also sure the batters on his team at some point or another knew what pitches were coming.

Here's where I differ than the main stream talking points, the outrage cops are acting like this is a unique situation it's not. I had Tony Paul fire back at me on Twitter last night that people were pissed off about the Chi Sox and the steroid era. Well the other team is still the winner of that series and I lived through the roid era. The attendance was higher, the media was a buzz about the HR race and I recall everyone really enjoying it.

steveschneider wrote:

DWags wrote:Heard some pitcher say he’d rather face a steroided up great hitter than a guy who knows what pitch is coming.

I saw that too. I'm also sure the batters on his team at some point or another knew what pitches were coming.

Here's where I differ than the main stream talking points, the outrage cops are acting like this is a unique situation it's not. I had Tony Paul fire back at me on Twitter last night that people were pissed off about the Chi Sox and the steroid era. Well the other team is still the winner of that series and I lived through the roid era. The attendance was higher, the media was a buzz about the HR race and I recall everyone really enjoying it.

the whole "outrage" about the steroid era is so unbelievably laughable and is the most damning indictment of the holier than thou attitude MLB has and has always had.

everyone involved in MLB (including the writers) got tons of money/fame/etc. out of that. then they retroactively got all upset. idiots all.

I haven't kept up with this..

but isn't trying to steal signals part of the game? I sucked at baseball - SUCKED - but I played all through high school 'cause my buddies were on the team. While I was in the dugout (I never played.. because I sucked), we'd watch the catcher, maybe a coach over the other dugout.. and try to steal the signals, what pitch was coming. What particular sign was the indicator to the catcher or pitcher..

clearly this is a bigger deal than high school baseball.. and clearly I don't get it.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I haven't kept up with this..

but isn't trying to steal signals part of the game? I sucked at baseball - SUCKED - but I played all through high school 'cause my buddies were on the team. While I was in the dugout (I never played.. because I sucked), we'd watch the catcher, maybe a coach over the other dugout.. and try to steal the signals, what pitch was coming. What particular sign was the indicator to the catcher or pitcher..

clearly this is a bigger deal than high school baseball.. and clearly I don't get it.

yes it has.

that said, apparently manfred warned all teams a couple years ago that using cameras or other electronic means to steal signs would be severely punished. in other words, gotta stick to the old school cheating methods.

Banks2Mason wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I saw that too. I'm also sure the batters on his team at some point or another knew what pitches were coming.

Here's where I differ than the main stream talking points, the outrage cops are acting like this is a unique situation it's not. I had Tony Paul fire back at me on Twitter last night that people were pissed off about the Chi Sox and the steroid era. Well the other team is still the winner of that series and I lived through the roid era. The attendance was higher, the media was a buzz about the HR race and I recall everyone really enjoying it.

the whole "outrage" about the steroid era is so unbelievably laughable and is the most damning indictment of the holier than thou attitude MLB has and has always had.

everyone involved in MLB (including the writers) got tons of money/fame/etc. out of that. then they retroactively got all upset. idiots all.

Fun fact performance enchancing drugs in baseball dates back over 100 years. Pud Galving who is in the hall of fame took PEDs in the 19th century. Don't even get me going about all the truck driver speed the players did in the 70's. Baseball to me has always been about good old fashion cheating.

Getting upset about this to me is on par with getting outraged at the discovery that an SEC player gets paid to play football at LSU/Alabama/Georgia/Auburn/UofF.

steveschneider wrote:

Banks2Mason wrote:

the whole "outrage" about the steroid era is so unbelievably laughable and is the most damning indictment of the holier than thou attitude MLB has and has always had.

everyone involved in MLB (including the writers) got tons of money/fame/etc. out of that. then they retroactively got all upset. idiots all.

Fun fact performance enchancing drugs in baseball dates back over 100 years. Pud Galving who is in the hall of fame took PEDs in the 19th century. Don't even get me going about all the truck driver speed the players did in the 70's. Baseball to me has always been about good old fashion cheating.

oh i'm well aware. and is if no one knew what was happening when guys starting looking like WWE wrestlers and smashing 60 HRs a year. lol bud selig was TOTALLY BLINDSIDED hahaha

Heat Miser wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I haven't kept up with this..

but isn't trying to steal signals part of the game? I sucked at baseball - SUCKED - but I played all through high school 'cause my buddies were on the team. While I was in the dugout (I never played.. because I sucked), we'd watch the catcher, maybe a coach over the other dugout.. and try to steal the signals, what pitch was coming. What particular sign was the indicator to the catcher or pitcher..

clearly this is a bigger deal than high school baseball.. and clearly I don't get it.

Yes, stealing signs is part of the game. Using technology to help steal signs is not. That is the position of MLB. You can agree or disagree, but that is their position. The teams were warned, yet they persisted.

I mean I guess to get philosophical if a sign is stolen with a telescope/binoculars in the outfield or if it's stolen off a computer screen what is the difference? The NY Giants had a guy in the outfield with a scope and they had a light system in the dug out that told what pitch is coming. Sounds like they were just as effective as the Astros both ended up winning the pennant.

steveschneider wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

Yes, stealing signs is part of the game. Using technology to help steal signs is not. That is the position of MLB. You can agree or disagree, but that is their position. The teams were warned, yet they persisted.

I mean I guess to get philosophical if a sign is stolen with a telescope/binoculars in the outfield or if it's stolen off a computer screen what is the difference? The NY Giants had a guy in the outfield with a scope and they had a light system in the dug out that told what pitch is coming. Sounds like they were just as effective as the Astros both ended up winning the pennant.

don't try to apply logic to baseball. they play about 500 games a year, still wear fucking belts to play a sport, and throw 100 mph projectiles at each others skulls because someone didn't do an HR trot fast enough or whatever. it's all stupid.

also, at any given time, there are approximately 5 MLB players who have any education beyond HS and lived in a city with more than 500 people prior to getting drafted.

Banks2Mason wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I mean I guess to get philosophical if a sign is stolen with a telescope/binoculars in the outfield or if it's stolen off a computer screen what is the difference? The NY Giants had a guy in the outfield with a scope and they had a light system in the dug out that told what pitch is coming. Sounds like they were just as effective as the Astros both ended up winning the pennant.

don't try to apply logic to baseball. they play about 500 games a year, still wear fucking belts to play a sport, and throw 100 mph projectiles at each others skulls because someone didn't do an HR trot fast enough or whatever. it's all stupid.

also, at any given time, there are approximately 5 MLB players who have any education beyond HS and lived in a city with more than 500 people prior to getting drafted.

I'm a huge fan of baseball actually, I just find it unwatchable these days because of the god awful tanking process teams have to do these days to compete. I used to watch about 100 games a season and I watched zero regular season games. I wish I could watch more but life is too short to go through the agony of watching Al Avilla screw up the rebuild.

Heat Miser wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I haven't kept up with this..

but isn't trying to steal signals part of the game? I sucked at baseball - SUCKED - but I played all through high school 'cause my buddies were on the team. While I was in the dugout (I never played.. because I sucked), we'd watch the catcher, maybe a coach over the other dugout.. and try to steal the signals, what pitch was coming. What particular sign was the indicator to the catcher or pitcher..

clearly this is a bigger deal than high school baseball.. and clearly I don't get it.

Yes, stealing signs is part of the game. Using technology to help steal signs is not. That is the position of MLB. You can agree or disagree, but that is their position. The teams were warned, yet they persisted.

sorta makes sense.. but, as Steve said, at what point do we define "technology" relative to stealing signs?

that said, I like/watch sports as much as the next guy (except baseball..) but it seems like there are plenty of other things that would could direct our energies toward other than who may or may not be cheating in professional baseball.

Major League Baseball putting energy towards teams in their league cheating? Like Bob, I am also surprised at this and think there may be better things for them to do.

.........

steveschneider wrote:

DWags wrote:Heard some pitcher say he’d rather face a steroided up great hitter than a guy who knows what pitch is coming.

I saw that too. I'm also sure the batters on his team at some point or another knew what pitches were coming.

Here's where I differ than the main stream talking points, the outrage cops are acting like this is a unique situation it's not. I had Tony Paul fire back at me on Twitter last night that people were pissed off about the Chi Sox and the steroid era. Well the other team is still the winner of that series and I lived through the roid era. The attendance was higher, the media was a buzz about the HR race and I recall everyone really enjoying it.

Yep. I think this actually helps baseball. And when the Astros go to other towns attendance will be higher.

Yeah... even my high school kid can hit an offspeed if he knows what's coming. The whole game is to keep them thinking. The hitting isn't the hard part.

A ton of baseball is between the ears. It's like golf almost.

Banks2Mason wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

In this case, I believe they gave immunity for testimony.

nope.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/mlb-wont-punish-cheating-astros-players-and-thats-not-right/2020/01/15/7a41139c-37c1-11ea-bb7b-265f4554af6d_story.html

"To be sure, there are practical concerns not listed among Manfred’s reasons for not pursuing player punishment. First, baseball wanted to get frank accounts of what the Astros did from players, so it granted immunity in cooperation for testimony."

https://twitter.com/sn_mlb/status/1218193147433488384?s=21

Just shocking.

Banks2Mason wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I haven't kept up with this..

but isn't trying to steal signals part of the game? I sucked at baseball - SUCKED - but I played all through high school 'cause my buddies were on the team. While I was in the dugout (I never played.. because I sucked), we'd watch the catcher, maybe a coach over the other dugout.. and try to steal the signals, what pitch was coming. What particular sign was the indicator to the catcher or pitcher..

clearly this is a bigger deal than high school baseball.. and clearly I don't get it.

yes it has.

that said, apparently manfred warned all teams a couple years ago that using cameras or other electronic means to steal signs would be severely punished. in other words, gotta stick to the old school cheating methods.

Strictly my opinion, but stealing signs has always been a part of the charm of baseball. Teams using cameras is just plain cheating. Big difference between the two. I would say using a camera for getting signs is tantamount to a football team using a directional microphone to eavesdrop on the plays being called in the huddle.

tGreenWay wrote:

Banks2Mason wrote:

yes it has.

that said, apparently manfred warned all teams a couple years ago that using cameras or other electronic means to steal signs would be severely punished. in other words, gotta stick to the old school cheating methods.

Strictly my opinion, but stealing signs has always been a part of the charm of baseball. Teams using cameras is just plain cheating. Big difference between the two. I would say using a camera for getting signs is tantamount to a football team using a directional microphone to eavesdrop on the plays being called in the huddle.

the 1951 giants used a telescope and buzzer system

also, you basically describe what the Pats go caught doing filming practices and then later sideline signals from other teams

Giants elaborate sign stealing -

https://sabr.org/research/durocher-spymaster-how-much-did-giants-prosper-cheating-1951-finalist

If anyone can find info on the Braves. I can't find clips of the old Olbermann show on ESPN but he claimed they did it in the 1914 world series. Sounds like they were doctoring the ball. They went from dead last and in July to World Series winners and won it in a sweep.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ceroqgsb8osC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=1914+braves+doctored+ball&source=bl&ots=RrE0xkLxFg&sig=ACfU3U3bm2TAQqfwrgPL1luNlQyV3thfPQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwir2pGizYvnAhXR1VkKHf32AHcQ6AEwGHoECA8QAQ#v=onepage&q=1914%20braves%20doctored%20ball&f=false

Found this. Olbermann on his show accused them of doctoring the ball and this seems to confirm it. Who knows maybe they were just that good and found their stuff...or maybe it was just emory boards.

So is the argument being made by some that because cheaters have gotten away with it before, it's unfair to penalize other cheaters when they are actually caught?

Not sure that's the hill I'd be dying on, but okay...

Banks2Mason wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:


Strictly my opinion, but stealing signs has always been a part of the charm of baseball. Teams using cameras is just plain cheating. Big difference between the two. I would say using a camera for getting signs is tantamount to a football team using a directional microphone to eavesdrop on the plays being called in the huddle.

the 1951 giants used a telescope and buzzer system

Those Sonsabitches.

also, you basically describe what the Pats go caught doing filming practices and then later sideline signals from other teams

Yup, and despite my wife’s protestations, the Pats got off easy. But as you said previously (relative to MLB), the commish works for the owners, and only the owners.

tGreenWay wrote:

Yup, and despite my wife’s protestations,

You could still dance to that rock and roll station

it was alright. It's alright.

Cameron wrote:So is the argument being made by some that because cheaters have gotten away with it before, it's unfair to penalize other cheaters when they are actually caught?

Not sure that's the hill I'd be dying on, but okay...

I don’t think any less of them. They were punished and they deserve it but al these people shocked by it need to get a grip. Imo they did what they had to do to win a World Series, they were the better team that year and I tip my cap to them.

Man this guy did his research.

Guy goes back watches every game logs bangs.

DWags wrote:Man this guy did his research.

Guy goes back watches every game logs bangs.

i like sex as much as the next guy, but logging your bangs seems a bit creepy

Saw David Ortiz on DP this week. He’s an old school guy. Thinks use of cameras, messaging of any type of info from an outfield view to the clubhouse /dugout is over the top.

Look at the pitcher for tells on what pitch is coming and look at the base runner on 2nd if he’s there to give what he saw.

Ortiz said all he would have needed was to know if was a fastball or off speed to adjust his timing.