Roy Williams calling it quits, announces retirement.

There is no “honor” in playing by the ncaa’s rules that are designed to take advantage of these kids, no. Fuck no.

Turtleneck you pulled quotes from 2017, doubled down with another from 2017 and purposefully left the date off it and ignored the 2021 stuff or the column he wrote yesterday where he praises him. You exposed yourself. Did UNC academic departments do something wrong? Absolutely. Was Roy involved? I await your proof. Michael Rosenbergs SI article nailed it.

OTPT I don't think you can "lump sum" your argument like that. Most of us agree the system needs change as far as players being compensated for their performance. You fight for that change. I think it's coming. It's not fair to jump straight to "they all cheat" because of it. There's a huge difference between the way the system is set up to make the NCAA a ton of money and a school setting up fake classes for student athletes.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:The NCAA is a cheat. I’m to the point of saying not cheating and allowing these players to NOT gain benefits outside of what the ncaa allows them to have are the real frauds.

Truthfully I’m just over demonizing players getting some of their worth through various avenues. Playing the morality card in a system like the ncaa is nauseating and fake.

MSU is just another piece to the puzzle of the fuckery

This kind of sounds like you have more appreciation for the programs/boosters that are finding ways to pay some of their players.

NigelUno wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:The NCAA is a cheat. I’m to the point of saying not cheating and allowing these players to NOT gain benefits outside of what the ncaa allows them to have are the real frauds.

Truthfully I’m just over demonizing players getting some of their worth through various avenues. Playing the morality card in a system like the ncaa is nauseating and fake.

MSU is just another piece to the puzzle of the fuckery

This kind of sounds like you have more appreciation for the programs/boosters that are finding ways to pay some of their players.

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

If you consider the NCAA to be for all intensive porpoises a criminal organization designed to assist schools in making these kids indentured servants for 4 or 5 years in the interest of making a shit ton of money for the schools & the NCAA, then skirting the rules wherever possible to help these kids could be viewed as a moral necessity.

Not saying I subscribe to this POV, but it does have some merits I think.

Most of us: Its bullshit. These kids deserve to be compensated.

Also most of us: I still plan to bet and make money on these kids.

Ironically I think legalized gambling will accelerate them gettimg compensated way quicker than the NCAA would have.

Right now they're basically horses at Churchill Downs. Are we going to start studding them out soon?

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

This kind of sounds like you have more appreciation for the programs/boosters that are finding ways to pay some of their players.

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

If you consider the NCAA to be for all intensive porpoises a criminal organization designed to assist schools in making these kids indentured servants for 4 or 5 years in the interest of making a shit ton of money for the schools & the NCAA, then skirting the rules wherever possible to help these kids could be viewed as a moral necessity.

Not saying I subscribe to this POV, but it does have some merits I think.

I don't think it does. Because those motivations from those programs and/or outsiders who get involved are not altruistic.

The players and their families also have a choice.

steveschneider wrote:Turtleneck you pulled quotes from 2017, doubled down with another from 2017 and purposefully left the date off it and ignored the 2021 stuff or the column he wrote yesterday where he praises him. You exposed yourself. Did UNC academic departments do something wrong? Absolutely. Was Roy involved? I await your proof. Michael Rosenbergs SI article nailed it.

You’re really digging in here, Steve. Sorry you thought nobody would notice your lies. Based on his 2021 tweets, his position did not evolve.

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

This kind of sounds like you have more appreciation for the programs/boosters that are finding ways to pay some of their players.

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

If you consider the NCAA to be for all intensive porpoises a criminal organization designed to assist schools in making these kids indentured servants for 4 or 5 years in the interest of making a shit ton of money for the schools & the NCAA, then skirting the rules wherever possible to help these kids could be viewed as a moral necessity.

Not saying I subscribe to this POV, but it does have some merits I think.

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

NigelUno wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

If you consider the NCAA to be for all intensive porpoises a criminal organization designed to assist schools in making these kids indentured servants for 4 or 5 years in the interest of making a shit ton of money for the schools & the NCAA, then skirting the rules wherever possible to help these kids could be viewed as a moral necessity.

Not saying I subscribe to this POV, but it does have some merits I think.

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

More than the ncaa can say. Or the schools. Or the millionaire coaches belittling kids on national tv.

Turtleneck wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Turtleneck you pulled quotes from 2017, doubled down with another from 2017 and purposefully left the date off it and ignored the 2021 stuff or the column he wrote yesterday where he praises him. You exposed yourself. Did UNC academic departments do something wrong? Absolutely. Was Roy involved? I await your proof. Michael Rosenbergs SI article nailed it.

You’re really digging in here, Steve. Sorry you thought nobody would notice your lies. Based on his 2021 tweets, his position did not evolve.

Mate in four.

One -

"Roy Williams is walking away — and college basketball is losing a pillar of goodness"

"https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/04/01/john-feinstein-roy-williams-retires/"

Two -

[tw]1377952794418802695?s=20[/tw]

Three -

[tw]1375135950674747393?s=20[/tw]

Four -

[tw]1373624236066156548?s=20[/tw]

Check mate. Sit down junior!

If you like the coaches that did it the right way then you should be a Roy Williams fan. He's clean.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

More than the ncaa can say. Or the schools. Or the millionaire coaches belittling kids on national tv.

So, we agree the moral angle is bullshit.

As long as we're changing things, I think we should eliminate any scholarships for nonrevenue sports that are funded with football and basketball money.

Your last sentence is just flame throwing.

steveschneider wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

You’re really digging in here, Steve. Sorry you thought nobody would notice your lies. Based on his 2021 tweets, his position did not evolve.

Mate in four.

One -

"Roy Williams is walking away — and college basketball is losing a pillar of goodness"

"https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/04/01/john-feinstein-roy-williams-retires/"

Two -

[tw]1377952794418802695?s=20[/tw]

Three -

[tw]1375135950674747393?s=20[/tw]

Four -

[tw]1373624236066156548?s=20[/tw]

Check mate. Sit down junior!

You're so dumb, Steve. For real. You're either incredibly dishonest or severely challenged. The latter is not your fault, but the former is no way to go through life.

He doesn't even mention the scandal in his Washington Post piece.

He said they got off on a technicality. That does not mean he thinks UNC was clean. It's actually the opposite and is not an example of his position evolving. He thinks UNC was guilty but escaped justice on a fluke.

He also says he chooses to believe Williams did not know, which is not the same as providing evidence that exonerates Williams. Furthermore, he clearly believes it is fine for people to think otherwise, which reaffirms that it is his personal belief and not rooted in evidence.

None of that says what you think it says. Oh, and nice "back-and-forth" you had, Steve.

Turtleneck wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Mate in four.

One -

"Roy Williams is walking away — and college basketball is losing a pillar of goodness"

"https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/04/01/john-feinstein-roy-williams-retires/"

Two -

[tw]1377952794418802695?s=20[/tw]

Three -

[tw]1375135950674747393?s=20[/tw]

Four -

[tw]1373624236066156548?s=20[/tw]

Check mate. Sit down junior!

You so dumb, Steve. For real. You're either incredibly dishonest or severely challenged. The latter is not your fault, but the former is no way to go through life.

He doesn't even mention the scandal in his Washington Post piece.

He said they got off on a technicality. That does not mean he thinks UNC was clean. It's actually the opposite and is not an example of his position evolving. He thinks UNC was guilty but escaped justice on a fluke.

He also says chooses to believe Williams did not know, which is not the same as providing evidence that exonerates Williams. Furthermore, he clearly believes it is fine for people to think otherwise, which reaffirms that it is his personal belief and not rooted in evidence.

Noe of that says what you think it says. Oh, and nice "back-and-forth" you had, Steve.

He said in the tweet he didn't believe Dean Smith or Williams were involved. Read through the info again.

If you like clean coaches Mark Few, Tom Izzo, Roy Williams and Dean Smith are your guys. Text book definition of integrity.

steveschneider wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

You so dumb, Steve. For real. You're either incredibly dishonest or severely challenged. The latter is not your fault, but the former is no way to go through life.

He doesn't even mention the scandal in his Washington Post piece.

He said they got off on a technicality. That does not mean he thinks UNC was clean. It's actually the opposite and is not an example of his position evolving. He thinks UNC was guilty but escaped justice on a fluke.

He also says chooses to believe Williams did not know, which is not the same as providing evidence that exonerates Williams. Furthermore, he clearly believes it is fine for people to think otherwise, which reaffirms that it is his personal belief and not rooted in evidence.

Noe of that says what you think it says. Oh, and nice "back-and-forth" you had, Steve.

He said in the tweet he didn't believe Dean Smith or Williams were involved. Read through the info again.

I addressed that, Steve. This has been fun. I look forward to doing it again soon.

Turtleneck wrote:

steveschneider wrote:


He said in the tweet he didn't believe Dean Smith or Williams were involved. Read through the info again.

I addressed that, Steve. This has been fun. I look forward to doing it again soon.

And you haven't provided anything that implicated him and even your 2017 bumps didn't implicate Roy. Also, this whole disagreement was you refusing to acknowledge what I was referring to in his 2021 tweets and doubling down with another 2017 post.

steveschneider wrote:Turtleneck you pulled quotes from 2017, doubled down with another from 2017 and purposefully left the date off it and ignored the 2021 stuff or the column he wrote yesterday where he praises him. You exposed yourself. Did UNC academic departments do something wrong? Absolutely. Was Roy involved? I await your proof. Michael Rosenbergs SI article nailed it.

Bumping for Turtleneck.

steveschneider wrote:He also stated that non student athletes attended the same classes and that allowed UNC to get off on a technicality. It was his firm belief that Dean and Roy had no involvement.

Bumping for Turtleneck so he can get his shit straight.

In my side conversation with Steve, I realized that my flexes, as WBH calls them, are about off the court issues. Comments, actions, decision-making, etc.

I have never flexed over NCAA rules violations. In his 25+ years as a head coach, Izzo has not had to deal with a cheating scandal, and that says a lot. I agree with OTPT that the system is corrupt and exploitative, and the NCAA, schools, coaches, sports media, and fans are all complicit. However, to remain competitive, a school has to participate in that system. There are no alternatives to the NCAA.

What does annoy me is the way some fans put coaches on pedestals as if they exist on a superior moral plane. They defend everything their favorite coaches say and do, and take criticism of those coaches personally. When Roy Williams compared an earthquake in Haiti that killed over 200,000 people to his down season, it was nothing short of reprehensible. The way Williams publicly chastised Delvon Roe was childish. I also found Izzo's updated comments about Kapernick's protests to be somewhat insincere. I think it's fine to openly criticize these coaches because they are human like the rest of us. If we are not careful, we run the risk of turning them into deities and creating Paterno-like cults.

You're not posting anything new, Steve. It's all been addressed. You seem to be going off the rails. Be well, Steve.

Turtleneck wrote:You're not posting anything new, Steve. It's all been addressed. You seem to be going off the rails. Be well, Steve.

I was a straight shooter the entire way. You weren't. Good day sir!

Turtleneck wrote:In my side conversation with Steve, I realized that my flexes, as WBH calls them, are about off the court issues. Comments, actions, decision-making, etc.

I have never flexed over NCAA rules violations. In his 25+ years as a head coach, Izzo has not had to deal with a cheating scandal, and that says a lot. I agree with OTPT that the system is corrupt and exploitative, and the NCAA, schools, coaches, sports media, and fans are all complicit. However, to remain competitive, a school has to participate in that system. There are no alternatives to the NCAA.

What does annoy me is the way some fans put coaches on pedestals as if they exist on a superior moral plane. They defend everything their favorite coaches say and do, and take criticism of those coaches personally. When Roy Williams compared an earthquake in Haiti that killed over 200,000 people to his down season, it was nothing short of reprehensible. The way Williams publicly chastised Delvon Roe was childish. I also found Izzo's updated comments about Kapernick's protests to be somewhat insincere. I think it's fine to openly criticize these coaches because they are human like the rest of us. If we are not careful, we run the risk of turning them into deities and creating Paterno-like cults.

Thank God we're careful then.

Turtleneck wrote:In my side conversation with Steve, I realized that my flexes, as WBH calls them, are about off the court issues. Comments, actions, decision-making, etc.

I have never flexed over NCAA rules violations. In his 25+ years as a head coach, Izzo has not had to deal with a cheating scandal, and that says a lot. I agree with OTPT that the system is corrupt and exploitative, and the NCAA, schools, coaches, sports media, and fans are all complicit. However, to remain competitive, a school has to participate in that system. There are no alternatives to the NCAA.

What does annoy me is the way some fans put coaches on pedestals as if they exist on a superior moral plane. They defend everything their favorite coaches say and do, and take criticism of those coaches personally. When Roy Williams compared an earthquake in Haiti that killed over 200,000 people to his down season, it was nothing short of reprehensible. The way Williams publicly chastised Delvon Roe was childish. I also found Izzo's updated comments about Kapernick's protests to be somewhat insincere. I think it's fine to openly criticize these coaches because they are human like the rest of us. If we are not careful, we run the risk of turning them into deities and creating Paterno-like cults.

Delvon Roe had nothing but great things to say about Roy the other day. He said when he retired from basketball (Roe) Roy sent him a classy letter. I'm guessing you are going off outdated info again to form your opinion about Roy and Delvon.

NigelUno wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

This kind of sounds like you have more appreciation for the programs/boosters that are finding ways to pay some of their players.

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

If you consider the NCAA to be for all intensive porpoises a criminal organization designed to assist schools in making these kids indentured servants for 4 or 5 years in the interest of making a shit ton of money for the schools & the NCAA, then skirting the rules wherever possible to help these kids could be viewed as a moral necessity.

Not saying I subscribe to this POV, but it does have some merits I think.

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

But at least they're getting paid, which is better than not getting paid to win.

steveschneider wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:In my side conversation with Steve, I realized that my flexes, as WBH calls them, are about off the court issues. Comments, actions, decision-making, etc.

I have never flexed over NCAA rules violations. In his 25+ years as a head coach, Izzo has not had to deal with a cheating scandal, and that says a lot. I agree with OTPT that the system is corrupt and exploitative, and the NCAA, schools, coaches, sports media, and fans are all complicit. However, to remain competitive, a school has to participate in that system. There are no alternatives to the NCAA.

What does annoy me is the way some fans put coaches on pedestals as if they exist on a superior moral plane. They defend everything their favorite coaches say and do, and take criticism of those coaches personally. When Roy Williams compared an earthquake in Haiti that killed over 200,000 people to his down season, it was nothing short of reprehensible. The way Williams publicly chastised Delvon Roe was childish. I also found Izzo's updated comments about Kapernick's protests to be somewhat insincere. I think it's fine to openly criticize these coaches because they are human like the rest of us. If we are not careful, we run the risk of turning them into deities and creating Paterno-like cults.

Delvon Roe had nothing but great things to say about Roy the other day. He said when he retired from basketball (Roe) Roy sent him a classy letter. I'm guessing you are going off outdated info again to form your opinion about Roy and Delvon.

That's great, Steve. Notice I did not say anything about their relationship past or present.

Williams publicly chastised Roe for not coming to UNC. That's not outdated information. It's a fact. I called his comments childish and that's the extent of what I said.

I have no clue how they feel about each other, and I did not make any such comments.

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

But at least they're getting paid, which is better than not getting paid to win.

It wasn't better for Brian Bowen.

NigelUno wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

But at least they're getting paid, which is better than not getting paid to win.

It wasn't better for Brian Bowen.

Ah, so if it isn't better for all it can't be better for any? Sounds kinda dumb.

Heat Miser wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

It wasn't better for Brian Bowen.

Ah, so if it isn't better for all it can't be better for any? Sounds kinda dumb.

What's really dumb is the idea that guys that aren't "cheating" are the real frauds.

And the mental gymnastics that anyone paying players is on some high moral ground, or the idea that someone getting paid isn't (also) being taken advantage of.

where do i sign up for team others' opinions are dumb? i agree.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:where do i sign up for team others' opinions are dumb? i agree.

You don't have to sign up. You've always been on that team.

A Coach could think it's not fair that athletes don't get some kind of revenue sharing, but still not "cheat" because it's kind of against the rules.

Saying that Coach is a fraud is silly. Claiming that others who find ways to "cheat" have some high moral ground is also silly.

Not every P5 team is generating positive net revenue.

Just paying football and basketball players isn't a stand alone topic. It would impact other sports.

I don't think your opinion is dumb OTPT. That's just me personally. I think it's interesting. I'm glad you explained it. And this is not a criticism of you but I do wonder why you follow and root for MSU then if you feel the way that you do? Do you just turn it all off in your head when you watch? And again not a criticism directed at you, everyone is different. But I sort of admire Turtle's flex in that he is genuinely so conflicted about this that he no longer watches. At least I think he said that.

Honestly I probably will get there, too, one day. I hope not but I probably will. And I think it will be for sightly different reasons.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I don't think your opinion is dumb OTPT. That's just me personally. I think it's interesting. I'm glad you explained it. And this is not a criticism of you but I do wonder why you follow and root for MSU then if you feel the way that you do? Do you just turn it all off in your head when you watch? And again not a criticism directed at you, everyone is different. But I sort of admire Turtle's flex in that he is genuinely so conflicted about this that he no longer watches. At least I think he said that.

Honestly I probably will get there, too, one day. I hope not but I probably will. And I think it will be for sightly different reasons.

If I started to completely block out/disregard/ignore not find the silver lining in things in this world that were fucked (like college athletics) i'd imagine i'd run out of things to enjoy pretty quickly. I can still appreciate something while still thinking it's fucked, and at the end of the day I enjoy gambling on sports so that keeps me engaged in it as a product.

I’m weird in that I hate everything about college athletics but I still get nervous when we play, I want us to win, I want uofm to lose. I also know that winning or losing makes no difference in my life. I might get to the point I don’t care about MSU sports but being honest I doubt it.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

In theory it might have some merits. In reality, boosters are paying kids to win.

More than the ncaa can say. Or the schools. Or the millionaire coaches belittling kids on national tv.

Yeah, that Izzo is such a big meanie. Funny how the kids he "belittles" love him. This is why you could never beat a single guy who ever played for Tom Izzo, OTPT. You'd be looking for your safe space.

DWags wrote:I’m weird in that I hate everything about college athletics but I still get nervous when we play, I want us to win, I want uofm to lose. I also know that winning or losing makes no difference in my life.  I might get to the point I don’t care about MSU sports but being honest I doubt it.

As long as there's a cold beer in the fridge and an MSU game on you can count on me to watch. Won't stop me from calling out the exploitation of the athletes and I'll stick up for the kids that come from generational poverty that accept payment from a bag man. The athletes work hard,  deserve the pay and time after time the schools that do cheat have been rewarded. Such is life.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I don't think your opinion is dumb OTPT. That's just me personally. I think it's interesting. I'm glad you explained it. And this is not a criticism of you but I do wonder why you follow and root for MSU then if you feel the way that you do? Do you just turn it all off in your head when you watch? And again not a criticism directed at you, everyone is different. But I sort of admire Turtle's flex in that he is genuinely so conflicted about this that he no longer watches. At least I think he said that.

Honestly I probably will get there, too, one day. I hope not but I probably will. And I think it will be for sightly different reasons.

If I started to completely block out/disregard/ignore not find the silver lining in things in this world that were fucked (like college athletics) i'd imagine i'd run out of things to enjoy pretty quickly. I can still appreciate something while still thinking it's fucked, and at the end of the day I enjoy gambling on sports so that keeps me engaged in it as a product.

And you can call coaches frauds while enjoying it. And make some cool moose like comments also.

Your stance is kind of soft.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I don't think your opinion is dumb OTPT. That's just me personally. I think it's interesting. I'm glad you explained it. And this is not a criticism of you but I do wonder why you follow and root for MSU then if you feel the way that you do? Do you just turn it all off in your head when you watch? And again not a criticism directed at you, everyone is different. But I sort of admire Turtle's flex in that he is genuinely so conflicted about this that he no longer watches. At least I think he said that.

Honestly I probably will get there, too, one day. I hope not but I probably will. And I think it will be for sightly different reasons.

BS. You think calling Izzo a fraud is dumb.

duffy and nigel thinking i am going to get in some sort of back and forth with them