2015/16 Hoops Thread

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Alright, let's go.

I really want to see Valentine some at the point. That's his chance at the NBA imo. But I'm hearing Harris may play quite a bit of PG. If I had to guess or starting 5:

PG: Tum
SG: Harris
SF: Zel
PF: Davis
F/C: Schilling

Rotation like this:

PG:Tum/Harris/Zel
SG: Harris/AEIII/McQuaid/??
SF: Zel/Bess/Clark
PF: Davis/Clark
F/C: Schilling/Costello

Am I missing anything here? Will Ahrens play? Goins? (We aren't getting Swanigan IMO)

Man we really need Schilling to take a huge leap this offseason. I would include Costello in that but it appears he's bound for surgery and that's going to kill his offseason and Sr Production, unfortunately.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Oh, and calling my shot. 22-11. 12-6 in conference again. Tied for 2nd in B1G. 8 seed. Lose in Round of 32 to a 1 seed.

[Guest]

Alright, let's go.

I really want to see Valentine some at the point. That's his chance at the NBA imo. But I'm hearing Harris may play quite a bit of PG. If I had to guess or starting 5:

PG: Tum
SG: Harris
SF: Zel
PF: Davis
F/C: Schilling

Rotation like this:

PG:Tum/Harris/Zel
SG: Harris/AEIII/McQuaid/??
SF: Zel/Bess/Clark
PF: Davis/Clark
F/C: Schilling/Costello

Am I missing anything here? Will Ahrens play? Goins? (We aren't getting Swanigan IMO)

Man we really need Schilling to take a huge leap this offseason. I would include Costello in that but it appears he's bound for surgery and that's going to kill his offseason and Sr Production, unfortunately.

Goins maybe at #3 PF and Wollenman at #3 C.

Ahrens and McQuaid both might redshirt.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Isn't McQuaid a pretty high ranking recruit? Like 4*? I can't believe if Schilling, Bess, etc didn't shirt that he's going to. But good input.

[The_Dude]

Doesn't matter how good our backcourt is if our front court sucks. Hopefully Marv/Bess can replace Dawson somewhat and Davis can be that compose athlete we need inside.

[The_Dude]

Oh, and calling my shot. 22-11. 12-6 in conference again. Tied for 2nd in B1G. 8 seed. Lose in Round of 32 to a 1 seed.

8 seed would suck ass considering we will easily be a top 15-20 team to start the year.

[DWags]

Come on. We're going to suck in November and December. We'll have all kinds of hand wringing about how the game has passed Izzo bye. We'll be reminded how Duke is soooooo much better than us, how Kentucky is awesome how Izzo has lost it and yells too much.

Meanwhile, Izzo is going to take this team of Davis, Ellis III, Clark Costello, Tum Tum Harris, Zel, Schilling and yes wollenwalkonengineereggheadnotlookinglikeaplayerbutwillbebetter, plus maybe Swainigan, and Forbes and he will be quitetly making them into a team. The young kids will be a year better and Davis and Swainigan will dominate. Schilling, will surprise as to how good he is, Tum Tum will be a much better shot, and by mid February we'll start seeing what looks like a damn good team.

The angry italian elf will be cooking the stew and while the kitchin looks like a mess for three months we'll be served a 5 star meal in the BTT and we'll all say "I knew it all along" forgetting how we completely wrote Izzo off once again as he made asses of all of us. Once again.

2nd or 3rd place in the Big
We win the tournament in an upset of Maryland
We get to the final four.

Book it.

[CORNER BLITZ]

Final Four again. If Tum can develop a runner or set shot...Title

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Final Four again. If Tum can develop a runner or set shot...Title

I have a really good feeling about Tum Tum. He has good form on his shot. Would not be surprised at all if that kid comes back next year and shoots 70% from the line, 33+% from 3 and 40% from the floor.

[Tim Wakefield]

Oh, and calling my shot. 22-11. 12-6 in conference again. Tied for 2nd in B1G. 8 seed. Lose in Round of 32 to a 1 seed.

Wtf is this shit WBH? I'm overdosing on Kool-aid for next year.

Tum
E. Harris
DV
Davis
Costello/Schilling

That's a sick starting lineup and we should be very deep as well. Maybe lacking in the frontcourt a bit I guess. I'm gonna say ~25-7 (13-5) and a 3 seed in the dance.

[kingstonlake]

I'm gonna ponder my prediction until we know if the black coach with glasses is being retained.

[Guest]

Isn't McQuaid a pretty high ranking recruit? Like 4*? I can't believe if Schilling, Bess, etc didn't shirt that he's going to. But good input.

Yes, he is and supposedly a dead eye shooter......but....the reality is that you don't use much more than an 8 or 9 man rotation.

Nairn, Harris, Valentine, Forbes, Bess, Ellis  = 6
Costello, Schilling, Clark, Davis = 4

So you've essentially got an experienced 9 man rotation + Davis before considering Wollenman, Goins, McQuaid, Ahrens and the slim possibility of Swanigan.

That's the reason I'm thinking one or both of the freshman wings could 'shirt.

[DWags]

Isn't McQuaid a pretty high ranking recruit? Like 4*? I can't believe if Schilling, Bess, etc didn't shirt that he's going to. But good input.

Yes, he is and supposedly a dead eye shooter......but....the reality is that you don't use much more than an 8 or 9 man rotation.

Nairn, Harris, Valentine, Forbes, Bess, Ellis  = 6
Costello, Schilling, Clark, Davis = 4

So you've essentially got an experienced 9 man rotation + Davis before considering Wollenman, Goins, McQuaid, Ahrens and the slim possibility of Swanigan.

That's the reason I'm thinking one or both of the freshman wings could 'shirt.

Ok, this makes me think we could be fairly good.

[NigelUno]

Oh, and calling my shot. 22-11. 12-6 in conference again. Tied for 2nd in B1G. 8 seed. Lose in Round of 32 to a 1 seed.

What the hell is this?

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Can't make the FF every year. That's a pretty good season.

[Turtleneck]

Besides The Dude, I hope people do not flip out when Davis does not average 10ppg and 10rpg?

[The_Dude]

Besides The Dude, I hope people do not flip out when Davis does not average 10ppg and 10rpg?

People need to temper their expectations. Davis is a 5 start big but he's not a top 5 player. He won't have really any offensive game next year. That's fine we just need him to protect the rim and little and rebound.

If we can't have at least one of a senior Costello or junior Schilling be able to score a little in the post our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

[Turtleneck]

Besides The Dude, I hope people do not flip out when Davis does not average 10ppg and 10rpg?

our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

http://michiganstate.247sports.com/Board/93/Contents/Izzos-big-man-recruiting-has-been-whiff-after-whiff-after-whiff-15458392

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

Besides The Dude, I hope people do not flip out when Davis does not average 10ppg and 10rpg?

People need to temper their expectations. Davis is a 5 start big but he's not a top 5 player. He won't have really any offensive game next year. That's fine we just need him to protect the rim and little and rebound.

If we can't have at least one of a senior Costello or junior Schilling be able to score a little in the post our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

[The_Dude]

People need to temper their expectations. Davis is a 5 start big but he's not a top 5 player. He won't have really any offensive game next year. That's fine we just need him to protect the rim and little and rebound.

If we can't have at least one of a senior Costello or junior Schilling be able to score a little in the post our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

Payne was a 5 star recruit. We better have been able to develop him. Took a little while.

Costello has been so disappointing to me. He was mr basketball and has zero game on offense outside of hitting an open mid range jumper.

[CORNER BLITZ]

Isn't McQuaid a pretty high ranking recruit? Like 4*? I can't believe if Schilling, Bess, etc didn't shirt that he's going to. But good input.

Yes, he is and supposedly a dead eye shooter....

I think most look at the past and see how many dead-eye shooters we've supposedly had versus how many played like that during the game

[InTenSity]

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

Payne was a 5 star recruit. We better have been able to develop him. Took a little while.

Costello has been so disappointing to me. He was mr basketball and has zero game on offense outside of hitting an open mid range jumper.

I doubt the upcoming knee surgeries have had any effect on his game lately. Hopefully he'll retire from bball. Amirite?

[Turtleneck]

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

Payne was a 5 star recruit. We better have been able to develop him. Took a little while.

Costello has been so disappointing to me. He was mr basketball and has zero game on offense outside of hitting an open mid range jumper.

Most people just look at stars and recruiting rankings and develop expectations. The C/PF recruits are pretty tricky to get right, and those stars and ranking are incredibly misleading with those positions. In a given year, there is a very limited quantity of C/PF recruits that are polished enough to be significant contributors in their freshman year. The quantity is far more limited than what fans are led to believe. More C/PF are 3-4 year projects than we think, and that can often include players that are highly regarded by the recruiting services.

[NigelUno]

Can't make the FF every year. That's a pretty good season.

An 8 seed? No way.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

I actually kind of agree with Dude, re: Costello, though I'm sure in a much less asshole-ish and demanding way. I'm also sure the knees have impacted his development this year. But he appeared to have major game in a legit conference in HS. He sure seemed to be able to play with his back to the basket, and he had a mid range game to boot. Looked more developed than 80% of the bigs you see coming into D1, who just rely on their height and athleticism at the HS level. I remember telling my dad when they were incoming that Costello was going to be better than McGary, who looked to be nothing more to me than a slug in a big body.

[Turtleneck]

People need to temper their expectations. Davis is a 5 start big but he's not a top 5 player. He won't have really any offensive game next year. That's fine we just need him to protect the rim and little and rebound.

If we can't have at least one of a senior Costello or junior Schilling be able to score a little in the post our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

People need to temper their expectations. Davis is a 5 start big but he's not a top 5 player. He won't have really any offensive game next year. That's fine we just need him to protect the rim and little and rebound.

If we can't have at least one of a senior Costello or junior Schilling be able to score a little in the post our coaches suck at developing the offensive games of bigs.

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

In my response to the The Dude in his infamous 247 post, Gray is my example player. He is what comes to mind when I think about how misleading rankings of big men can be. He was a five star recruit and ranked in the top 25 in the country (overall), but he was also way more project than fans were expecting.

[The_Dude]

I actually kind of agree with Dude, re: Costello, though I'm sure in a much less asshole-ish and demanding way. I'm also sure the knees have impacted his development this year. But he appeared to have major game in a legit conference in HS. He sure seemed to be able to play with his back to the basket, and he had a mid range game to boot. Looked more developed than 80% of the bigs you see coming into D1, who just rely on their height and athleticism at the HS level. I remember telling my dad when they were incoming that Costello was going to be better than McGary, who looked to be nothing more to me than a slug in a big body.

Yeah...Costello isn't a sitff and he is big enough/coordinated enough he should have at least a couple back to the basket moves when you go over your left shoulder from the block and bank it in. He's an upperclassmen. Strength isn't an issue. He's bordering complete bust and with these other 5 star bigs going elsewhere Izzo has been going after it makes it even a more glaring weakness.

I almost wished Clark would focus on an inside game a little more because wit his size and strength he should be more of a bully than shooter. Kind of like a Tate from Ohio State.

[Turtleneck]

I actually kind of agree with Dude, re: Costello, though I'm sure in a much less asshole-ish and demanding way. I'm also sure the knees have impacted his development this year. But he appeared to have major game in a legit conference in HS. He sure seemed to be able to play with his back to the basket, and he had a mid range game to boot. Looked more developed than 80% of the bigs you see coming into D1, who just rely on their height and athleticism at the HS level. I remember telling my dad when they were incoming that Costello was going to be better than McGary, who looked to be nothing more to me than a slug in a big body.

I actually kind of agree with Dude, re: Costello, though I'm sure in a much less asshole-ish and demanding way. I'm also sure the knees have impacted his development this year. But he appeared to have major game in a legit conference in HS. He sure seemed to be able to play with his back to the basket, and he had a mid range game to boot. Looked more developed than 80% of the bigs you see coming into D1, who just rely on their height and athleticism at the HS level. I remember telling my dad when they were incoming that Costello was going to be better than McGary, who looked to be nothing more to me than a slug in a big body.

More developed than 80% does not say much. Look at the 2014 class of C/PF. After Okafor and Towns, there is a big drop off among freshman centers. Towns does not put up Okafor's numbers, but he makes 57% of his shots. As for power forwards, most of the 2014 class has a lot of work to do IMHO.

[The_Dude]

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

I think of marquise gray then I think about how AP turned out.

In my response to the The Dude in his infamous 247 post, Gray is my example player. He is what comes to mind when I think about how misleading rankings of big men can be. He was a five star recruit and ranked in the top 25 in the country (overall), but he was also way more project than fans were expecting.

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

[kingstonlake]

In my response to the The Dude in his infamous 247 post, Gray is my example player. He is what comes to mind when I think about how misleading rankings of big men can be. He was a five star recruit and ranked in the top 25 in the country (overall), but he was also way more project than fans were expecting.

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

Define bust. I'll counter with Green, Payne, Suton, Morgan, Grainger. What do you want? 3 deep lottery picks every year at the 4-5 spot?

[The_Dude]

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

Define bust. I'll counter with Green, Payne, Suton, Morgan, Grainger. What do you want? 3 deep lottery picks every year at the 4-5 spot?

I'm talking about guys recruited to be post players. Guys that are 6'10.

Tons and tons of misses lately. But that's because Izzo has been trying to reel in the big fish and it's tough.

[tig ol bitties]

I'm not expecting that much from DD next year. Everything I have read (which to be fair isn't all that much) says he is rated as high as he is due to potential/athleticism.


Izzo's best teams always seem to have a big that can pick/pop. Costello has shown flashes of it, hopefully that can become a consistent thing.

[InTenSity]

The center position probably has the most 'busts' for all levels of play. The amount of people who are 6'11" + is a limited resource, then there are even less of those that can play basketball, let alone have the coordination to play at a high level. This is being looked at through a very small microscope. I'd say overall, using the same arguments, that college basketball is doing a poor job of developing big men.

[The_Dude]

I'm not expecting that much from DD next year. Everything I have read (which to be fair isn't all that much) says he is rated as high as he is due to potential/athleticism.

This is correct. In reality, there are only maybe 2-3 big men that are ready as true frosh to make real impacts on the offensive side. DD won't be one of them. That's why instead of Towns and Okafor being in the NBA they have to play college one year which is stupid.

[Guest]

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

Sherman had a very nice SR year for ND after leaving, averaged 13ppg/7rpg, that's NOT a bust at all.   And he left because he wasn't going to play much here, tells you a bit about what was in front him.   I wonder how that happened with everyone "busting"?

Guana was a 3* with offers from us, Northwestern, Oakland & Xavier.   He wasn't a 4* or 5* that "busted" he was a serviceable back up which most 3*'s project to.  So again to label him a bust is silly.

Herzog was a 4*, ranked 54th nationally by Rivals so he might be the only legit "bust" on this list.   If so he'd join a long list of clumsy, weak big men that never developed and not just at Michigan State.

Costello was a 4* ranked 87th nationally, obviously he's not dominated the college scene but I don't consider him to be a bust yet.   Let's see how his last year goes.

Perhaps the most unfair of ALL on this list of busts is Schilling.   He's become a serviceable big in the B1GTen after coming out of HS with a LOW 3* rating of 74.  That's really the most you can hope for from a player like that.  With 2 years to go the possibility exists he could be much more.   To label him a "bust" at this point is premature as hell.

[The_Dude]

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

Sherman had a very nice SR year for ND after leaving, averaged 13ppg/7rpg, that's NOT a bust at all.   And he left because he wasn't going to play much here, tells you a bit about what was in front him.   I wonder how that happened with everyone "busting"?

Guana was a 3* with offers from us, Northwestern, Oakland & Xavier.   He wasn't a 4* or 5* that "busted" he was a serviceable back up which most 3*'s project to.  So again to label him a bust is silly.

Herzog was a 4*, ranked 54th nationally by Rivals so he might be the only legit "bust" on this list.   If so he'd join a long list of clumsy, weak big men that never developed and not just at Michigan State.

Costello was a 4* ranked 87th nationally, obviously he's not dominated the college scene but I don't consider him to be a bust yet.   Let's see how his last year goes.

Perhaps the most unfair of ALL on this list of busts is Schilling.   He's become a serviceable big in the B1GTen after coming out of HS with a LOW 3* rating of 74.  That's really the most you can hope for from a player like that.  With 2 years to go the possibility exists he could be much more.   To label him a "bust" at this point is premature as hell.

Define serviceable big. He can't play without fouling, is miserable at the FT line, and has zero offensive game. He is a below average big as of right now. He really needed that rs year. Seems like his overall coordination hasn't caught up to his body yet.

[Turtleneck]

In my response to the The Dude in his infamous 247 post, Gray is my example player. He is what comes to mind when I think about how misleading rankings of big men can be. He was a five star recruit and ranked in the top 25 in the country (overall), but he was also way more project than fans were expecting.

Gauna, Sherman, Herzog, Costello, Schilling...lots of big men busts in recent history.

Schilling? Really? How is his name mentioned as a bust? That makes no sense. None.

The center position probably has the most 'busts' for all levels of play. The amount of people who are 6'11" + is a limited resource, then there are even less of those that can play basketball, let alone have the coordination to play at a high level. This is being looked at through a very small microscope. I'd say overall, using the same arguments, that college basketball is doing a poor job of developing big men.

I will just copy and past what I previously posted. I agree with you 100%. As I said before, a lot of these guys are projects. It is also not just about offense. The Dude and others do not understand that these guys have to learn how to play defense as well, and that is often the harder part of their transition to college basketball.

1) Power forwards and centers do not grow on trees. Especially the latter. By comparison, guards and wing-type players are a dime-a-dozen.

2) In every recruiting class, there are only a few power forwards and centers considered polished enough to be immediate contributors. They usually end up at places like Duke, Kentucky, or UNC. Of course they may end up elsewhere, but many big men are seen as projects (see below) needing 2-3 years of development. Others just don't work out.

3) We need to be extremely careful interpreting the recruiting rankings of high school power forwards and centers. Given their size, these kids often had an incredible advantage over their high school (and sometimes AAU) competition. Because of this advantage, these kids often put on dominating performances. Such performances can lead to rankings that obscure a player's actual level of development. For example, Marquise Grey was greeted with great expectations. He had size and amazing athletic ability. But early on in it became clear that his game was underdeveloped relative to what fans had come to believe through headlines and the number of stars next to his name.

4) Anytime a guy is north of 6'8 and shows decent athletic ability, people wet their pants. This is because of the short supply of high school power forwards and centers capable of playing big time division I basketball.

5) There is no guarantees in any sport, and especially at the power forward and center positions in basketball.

[Guest]

Define serviceable big. He can't play without fouling, is miserable at the FT line, and has zero offensive game. He is a below average big as of right now. He really needed that rs year. Seems like his overall coordination hasn't caught up to his body yet.

How about you defining "bust"? How is a 3* with a 74 rating that's starting on a Final Four team as a true Sophomore considered a bust in your book? Just what the hell did you expect from him? Lew Alcindor II?

Obviously in your mind since you give him a zero on offense, a zero on defense and a zero at the FT line you think Izzo is a damned idiot for playing him at any time. That tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge.

[Guest]

Parrish has us preseason #9 and forgets Bess entirely. Granted he didn't do much this season because of the injury but it shouldn't be forgotten that he'd won a starting position on this team.

9. MICHIGAN STATE

Notable players definitely gone: Travis Trice, Branden Dawson
Others expected to leave: None
Notable players expected to return: Denzel Valentine, Marvin Clark, Matt Costello, Gavin Schilling, Alvin Ellis, Bryn Forbes, Lourawls Nairn
Others expected to join the roster: Eron Harris, Deyonta Davis, Matthew McQuaid, Kyle Ahrens

Why the Spartans are ranked here: The loss of Travis Trice and Branden Dawson will hurt. But the addition of Eron Harris, a West Virginia transfer, should be a big boost.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25138457/virginia-headlines-ridiculously-early-preseason-top-25-and-one

[Guest]

ESPN has us 24th:

24. Michigan State Spartans

What was supposed to be a transition season instead turned into the most surprising Final Four appearance of Tom Izzo's career. How's that for a superlative? So: Where do the Spartans go from here? Seniors Travis Trice and Branden Dawson, the two obvious keys to MSU's unlikely run, are gone. Denzel Valentine, Matt Costello and most of the Spartans' margins -- Tum Tum Nairn, Gavin Schilling, Bryn Forbes, et al -- are back. There are a couple of potential season-changers here. The first, West Virginia transfer Eron Harris, has been practicing with Michigan State for a year, and could emerge as Izzo's lead guard when he takes the court next fall. The second is incoming freshman Deyonta Davis, who is touted as an active, athletic, raw rebounding 4, which could make him the perfect successor for the departed Dawson. Izzo will have more at his disposal than first meets the eye.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2015/story/_/id/12623594/kentucky-wildcats-headline-early-top-25-ranking-2015-16-men-college-basketball-season

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