Re: tOfficial 2015 Detroit Tigers thread

[steveschneider]

This is an ass whooping and Castelleonos just exited after taking a hard shot off the face. He's going to have a black eye.

[HT]

Tigers are toast.

[Other Teams Pursuing That]

This is an ass whooping and Castelleonos just exited after taking a hard shot off the face. He's going to have a black eye.

He kinda sucks, too. Scrap the team.

[GRR Spartan]

Verlander sucks

He needs to learn how to pitch now.  He's stubborn.

JV still sees himself as the big guy on the mound who can throw the ball past people and can count on curve ball that hits the black edge so often  he should still get the benefit of the doubt like he did 3 years ago.

Long ago I met Mike Marshall, former MSU / MLB pitcher who was back in EL wrapping up a PhD.    I was able to talk pitching with hm.  Marshall said the toughest thing to teach power pitchers was that it does no good to throw 95+ fastball when the 92 mph fast ball moves and the faster one doesn't.  Same was true for a curve, slider and cut fastball.   (Marshall came up with a radically different pitching motion/ training that has got him blackballed from professional baseball)

It doesn't look like Verlander is ready to adopt changes that can get him back to winning 16-18, maybe 20 games in a season.  He still wants to pitch like the 27 year old who could throw 97 n the 8th and 9th innings to get outs.  

I hope he can start being effective again and I'm not paying him $28M/ year through '19 with an option for '20

[steveschneider]

Tie game.

[steveschneider]

Mariners take the lead.

[steveschneider]

Ian Kinsler is my Tiger!!!

[Guest]

Good to see Gose in, Rajai is so awkward in CF.

[steveschneider]

Huge win. If Anthony Fenech is right that the tigers need to win 4-5 games to avoid being sellers then the tigers are 2-2 coming out of the break. If they can go 3-1 this series that would be great.

[HT]

Huge win. If Anthony Fenech is right that the tigers need to win 4-5 games to avoid being sellers then the tigers are 2-2 coming out of the break. If they can go 3-1 this series that would be great.  

I am glad to see the Tigers win, but I really think they need to be sellers regardless of what happens. I don't want them to get nothing for Price, Cespedes and possibly Avila just so they can get another division title with an early playoff exit.

Just seems like the team has too many holes to go deep in the playoffs (particularly starting pitching, but the bullpen is obviously a big problem as well), nor do I think Ausmus has what it takes to manage the Tigers to winning a playoff series.

I feel like selling expiring assets now, while probably keeping the Tigers out of the playoffs, is going to make the rebuild so much easier and probably quicker. The Tigers are on borrowed time and a rebuild is inevitable, so might as well do what you can now to make it easier as possible instead of dragging it out like the Phillies.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

I just want to see what happens. I don't really blame them for going either way. So long as they don't fall a decent tick below .500 and 6-7 games out of the WC chase. Baseball is way different than it used to be. The hot team at the end of the year can and usually does win the big thing. You can't tell me that the Tigers aren't as good/talented as the Giants team that won it last year. They won it because of Baumgarner. Period. Price could easily be Baumgarner. And the lineup is a lot more talented. I could easily see the thinking that with a bullpen arm or two and a SP they could put themselves in a position to be that hot team come September/October. 

The difficult thing is that this team just seems to have chemistry issues or something. And they have since it seems the Guillen/Magglio/Polanco teams came up short. It's not like they don't get along. It's just something intangible. They have had great SP but when they pitch well they don't hit. They have great lineups, but they don't hit, especially in clutch situations. They have (arguably) the greatest RH hitter of all time, but he strikes out to lose the World Series against a 1 year wonder like Sergio Romo. Where is our 1 year wonder? Where is our Sergio Romo? Where is our Koji Uehara? Why can't we get some turd in the bullpen who becomes hot and unhittable for 3 months when it matters?

At any rate, it's hard to give up on the team when you look at the talent assembled. It's easy to give up on them when you look at how they show up on many nights.

[HT]

I just want to see what happens. I don't really blame them for going either way. So long as they don't fall a decent tick below .500 and 6-7 games out of the WC chase. Baseball is way different than it used to be. The hot team at the end of the year can and usually does win the big thing. You can't tell me that the Tigers aren't as good/talented as the Giants team that won it last year. They won it because of Baumgarner. Period. Price could easily be Baumgarner. And the lineup is a lot more talented. I could easily see the thinking that with a bullpen arm or two and a SP they could put themselves in a position to be that hot team come September/October. 

The difficult thing is that this team just seems to have chemistry issues or something. And they have since it seems the Guillen/Magglio/Polanco teams came up short. It's not like they don't get along. It's just something intangible. They have had great SP but when they pitch well they don't hit. They have great lineups, but they don't hit, especially in clutch situations. They have (arguably) the greatest RH hitter of all time, but he strikes out to lose the World Series against a 1 year wonder like Sergio Romo. Where is our 1 year wonder? Where is our Sergio Romo? Where is our Koji Uehara? Why can't we get some turd in the bullpen who becomes hot and unhittable for 3 months when it matters?

At any rate, it's hard to give up on the team when you look at the talent assembled. It's easy to give up on them when you look at how they show up on many nights.

I still don't think the Tigers have the starting pitching to make a playoff run, and even if they got someone, the bullpen has issues and you leave no margin for error from the starters.

But the real issue, I think, is coaching. You had a lot of good points about the Giants, but the thing to remember about them is that Bruce Bochy is one of the best managers in baseball and probably one of the best managers of all-time. Dude worked magic when he was in San Diego, and with management that spends more, we're seeing how good he is.

Leyland was a good manager, particularly at maintaining a positive clubhouse through the grind of the season, but he had some very glaring weaknesses (namely that he was too loyal). I also think his coaching staff left a bit to be desired (which had a lot of his carryovers from Pittsburgh due to said loyalty). Still, he had a good mind for the game and when the playoffs came, he knew how to manage his way in a series (save for the WS, but I think the long layoffs were the big issue in both 2006 and 2012)

Ausmus...he's learning on the job. He hasn't shown that he can make in-game decisions that pay off at a significantly higher rate than blowing up in his face. He seems lost a lot. He's kind of the opposite manager you'd want for this roster and the win-now situation the Tigers had in 2014 and going into 2015.

I really don't have faith in Ausmus or this coaching staff to get the job done, even if they get another SP. Heck, even with another SP, you don't have a whole lot of margin for error because Simon is imploding and Verlander remains a shell of his former self. And like you mentioned, it's easy to give up on them when you watch them most nights. For a season and a half, we've seen such lackluster play from the Tigers, and I believe Brad Ausmus is a big reason for that. It was painful to watch them a year ago when they won 90 games...it's only gotten worse this year because it's the same style but without the wins.

[HT]

BREAKING NEWS: IT'S HAPPENING!!!!!!!! THE TIGERS ARE READY TO SELL!!!!!!!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13292841/detroit-tigers-preparing-make-david-price-yoenis-cespedes-available-trade-deadline?ex_cid=bbtnFacebook

[Guest]

Should the Tigers be sellers or buyers?

The Detroit Tigers had a nice victory Monday, as Ian Kinsler's two-run home run off Seattle Mariners reliever Mark Lowe with two outs in the eighth inning lifted the Tigers to a 5-4 victory. The Tigers are 46-46, and with the trade deadline approaching, they are square in no-man's land: Sell, buy or stand pat?

[GRR Spartan]

Then I see a USA Today piece about 6 teams who are reportedly buyers and no Tigers are mentioned as targets.

[steveschneider]

Looking at the Tigers salary and long term contracts and you contrast it with the St. Louis Cardinals approach to baseball it outlines how brilliant the St. Louis Cardinals are.

Saw this quote from the Det News today:

"The Tigers have about $105 million tied up in five guys next season: Miguel Cabrera, Justin Verlander, Victor Martinez, Ian Kinsler and Anibal Sanchez." Anibal is cheap, Ian Kinsler is fair value...V Mart is on the books until 2018 and sooner or later Miguel is going to be better suited as a DH. Verlander is on the books until 2020 pulling in 28 million. Miguel is on the books until 2023 and will pulling in 30+ million.

Rewind a few years back when Albert Pujols was a free agent ending up with 10 years for 250 million dollars the Cardinals said no thanks. The Cardinals have just one season below .500 since 2000, they have made the playoffs 11 times, 9 trips to the NLCS, 4 trips to the WS and they have two WS championships. They currently have the best team in baseball, and they have an 8th ranked farm system.

What's the moral of the story? Next time a player like Miguel Cabrera or a Justin Verlander want that long term contract that's going to be on the books for years, as painful as it is to say goodbye you part ways. Also, the Tigers are at a point where they need to attract younger talent that is cheap at this point to rebuild.

[HT]

Looking at the Tigers salary and long term contracts it outlines how brilliant the St. Louis Cardinals are.

Rewind a few years back when Albert Pujols was a free agent ending up with 10 years for 250 million dollars the Cardinals said no thanks. The Cardinals have just one season below .500 since 2000, they have made the playoffs 11 times, 9 trips to the NLCS, 4 trips to the WS and they have two WS championships. They currently have the best team in baseball, and they have an 8th ranked farm system.

What's the moral of the story? Next time a player like Miguel Cabrera or a Justin Verlander want that long term contract that's going to be on the books for years, as painful as it is to say goodbye you part ways.

Agreed, though the Cardinals were in a better position to let Pujols go because they had a much better farm system than the Tigers.

I'd love to see the Tigers build up a rich farm system and operate like the Cardinals do.

[GRR Spartan]

Verlander is scheduled to make $28M/yr through 2019 and it's a club option in '20.

Dombrowski has been a build through trade GM since arriving. Mr. Illitch wanted to win now and you don't do that very often by having a farm system like the Tigers have had for over 2 decades.

Verlander is the only starter in the rotation that was drafted by the Tigers. Avila and Castellanos are the only position starters drafted by the Tigers.

[Guest]

Verlander is scheduled to make $28M/yr through 2019 and it's a club option in '20.  

Dombrowski has been a build through trade GM since arriving.  Mr. Illitch wanted to win now and you don't do that very often by having a farm system like the Tigers have had for over 2 decades.

Verlander is the only starter in the rotation that was drafted by the Tigers.  Avila and Castellanos are the only position starters drafted by the Tigers.  

Though to be fair we've acquired many of the players we have today by using our farm system:

The Miggy deal is defensible, the Verlander deal was plain stupid on 3 fronts  - the timing, the length and the amount.

Miggy for 6 guys that didn't pan out well early on although Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin eventually did.

We got Iglesias for Avasail which I think will end up an all time steal.

Porcello traded for Cespedes and Wilson looks like a good deal.

I'm sure there are more but that was off the top of my head.

I agree though that it would be nice to have more of our "own"...

[HT]

Verlander is scheduled to make $28M/yr through 2019 and it's a club option in '20.  

Dombrowski has been a build through trade GM since arriving.  Mr. Illitch wanted to win now and you don't do that very often by having a farm system like the Tigers have had for over 2 decades.

Verlander is the only starter in the rotation that was drafted by the Tigers.  Avila and Castellanos are the only position starters drafted by the Tigers.  

Though to be fair we've acquired many of the players we have today by using our farm system:

The Miggy deal is defensible, the Verlander deal was plain stupid on 3 fronts  - the timing, the length and the amount.

Miggy for 6 guys that didn't pan out well early on although Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin eventually did.

We got Iglesias for Avasail which I think will end up an all time steal.

Porcello traded for Cespedes and Wilson looks like a good deal.

I'm sure there are more but that was off the top of my head.

I agree though that it would be nice to have more of our "own"...

Yeah, and it's worked out pretty well, but I think the Tigers being able to replace options internally would work out even better than building via trade (not that I have a problem with that, it's just you need to restock the farm every now and then to keep it going).

The Cardinals don't burn out their farm system with deadline deals like the Tigers have the last few years, and I think it's why they for the most part are able to remain more competitive. The Tigers will be competitive again...I just think it's going to take a couple years to restock the farm before they can go back to what they were.

I think the new way to win long-term in MLB is to have good scouting and player development and win with cost-controlled talent that you complement with reasonable free agent deals, not build a team via free agency and not hand out massive contracts to players. The Cardinals are a perfect example of that.

[steveschneider]

Though to be fair we've acquired many of the players we have today by using our farm system:

The Miggy deal is defensible, the Verlander deal was plain stupid on 3 fronts  - the timing, the length and the amount.

Miggy for 6 guys that didn't pan out well early on although Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin eventually did.

We got Iglesias for Avasail which I think will end up an all time steal.

Porcello traded for Cespedes and Wilson looks like a good deal.

I'm sure there are more but that was off the top of my head.

I agree though that it would be nice to have more of our "own"...

Yeah, and it's worked out pretty well, but I think the Tigers being able to replace options internally would work out even better than building via trade (not that I have a problem with that, it's just you need to restock the farm every now and then to keep it going).

The Cardinals don't burn out their farm system with deadline deals like the Tigers have the last few years, and I think it's why they for the most part are able to remain more competitive. The Tigers will be competitive again...I just think it's going to take a couple years to restock the farm before they can go back to what they were.

I think the new way to win long-term in MLB is to have good scouting and player development and win with cost-controlled talent that you complement with reasonable free agent deals, not build a team via free agency and not hand out massive contracts to players. The Cardinals are a perfect example of that.

The thing about the Cardinals though, and it's hard to emulate what they do for one reason. They have an UNBELIEVABLE eye for talent. I seriously don't know how they do it. Where do they find these guys?

[GRR Spartan]

I'm not knocking Dombrowski's method. He's been playing with the cards dealt him and more times than not has gotten proven MLB talent for the elusive "potential".

The only trade that had no value for the Tigers since Dombrowski's been incharge was the Doug Fister for Robbie Ray/Ian Krol/Steve Lambardozzi deal with the Nationals.

the '07 trade of Mayben/Miller.Rabelo and 3 minor leagers for Cabera and Willis was a good move even if Willis didn't pan out.

The '09 trade that sent Granderson to the Yankees and Edwin Jackson the the Diamondbacks for Scherzer/Austin Jackson/Scherlith/Coke was also a good trade for the Tigers.

Point is you don't build a St. Louis s tyle farm system overnight and the farm system has to have the right coaches / scouts and front office / owner mentality in place to make it work.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

And the Tigers are never going to do that. At least not with the current regime. 

I am just worried about what this may spell. With DD a Free Agent, rumors have been lingering the past few years that Marian and/or Chris want to slash payroll the instant Mike is gone. In that case we'll be looking at a decade + of futility unless they sell the team.

[steveschneider]

I'm not knocking Dombrowski's method. He's been playing with the cards dealt him and more times than not has gotten proven MLB talent for the elusive "potential".

The only trade that had no value for the Tigers since Dombrowski's been incharge was the Doug Fister for Robbie Ray/Ian Krol/Steve Lambardozzi deal with the Nationals.

the '07 trade of Mayben/Miller.Rabelo and 3 minor leagers for Cabera and Willis was a good move even if Willis didn't pan out.

The '09 trade that sent Granderson to the Yankees and Edwin Jackson the the Diamondbacks for Scherzer/Austin Jackson/Scherlith/Coke was also a good trade for the Tigers.

Point is you don't build a St. Louis s tyle farm system overnight and the farm system has to have the right coaches / scouts and front office / owner mentality in place to make it work.

The trade system works well, problem with the Tigers fell in love with a few players and signed them to long term contracts.

Unless they are willing to up the payroll, then they are going to have to find younger cheaper players.

It is going to be an interesting month.

[GRR Spartan]

And the Tigers are never going to do that. At least not with the current regime. 

I am just worried about what this may spell. With DD a Free Agent, rumors have been lingering the past few years that Marian and/or Chris want to slash payroll the instant Mike is gone. In that case we'll be looking at a decade + of futility unless they sell the team.

When I read about Dombrowski's contract ending in '15 and no extension talks it made me think Dombrowski moves to a different team after the season.  He's a proven commodity and has taken 2 teams to the World Series.

Didn't know about the rumors but have considered Mike Illitch's age (85) and health have to be of some concern to Dombrowski.  He's had a close relationship with Mike Illitch and who knows what the other Ilitch's think of him.

Dombrowski to the Blue Jays would be plausible.  He doesn't know when Mike Illlitch relenquishes control or how things could change with Chris Illitch as his boss or if Chris (and Marion) might choose to sell the Tigers.

Rogers Communcations is the 100% owner of the Blue Jays.  They have deep pockets and are the ATT/Verizon of Canada.  He gets his last contract and builds a team through trades one more time.

[steveschneider]

And the Tigers are never going to do that. At least not with the current regime. 

I am just worried about what this may spell. With DD a Free Agent, rumors have been lingering the past few years that Marian and/or Chris want to slash payroll the instant Mike is gone. In that case we'll be looking at a decade + of futility unless they sell the team.

When I read about Dombrowski's contract ending in '15 and no extension talks it made me think Dombrowski moves to a different team after the season. He's a proven commodity and has taken 2 teams to the World Series.

Didn't know about the rumors but have considered Mike Illitch's age (85) and health have to be of some concern to Dombrowski. He's had a close relationship with Mike Illitch and who knows what the other Ilitch's think of him.

Dombrowski to the Blue Jays would be plausible. He doesn't know when Mike Illlitch relenquishes control or how things could change with Chris Illitch as his boss or if Chris (and Marion) might choose to sell the Tigers.

Rogers Communcations is the 100% owner of the Blue Jats. They have deep pockets and are the ATT/Verizon of Canada. He gets his last contract and builds a team through trades one more time.

I wouldn't mind if Dumbroski went. He's failed miserably with the bullpen for 3 seasons straight. I think with the amount of money the Tigers are willing to spend others can do the job as effectively.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

I think Anaheim makes more sense. 

Al Avila would be the next man up.

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

Flipside:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/why-the-tigers-shouldnt-sell-in-one-graph/

The Royals, Yankees, and Angels have put themselves in strong positions to win their divisions, and the Astros remain the most likely Wild Card team, with a real shot at the AL West themselves. Those four teams are each more likely to make the postseason than not.

But look at the drop-off after Houston. The Blue Jays, Twins, Orioles, and Indians are in a virtual tie with the Tigers for fifth place, with none of them expected to finish with more than 82 wins. Someone will break out from the pack and likely win 85-87 games and capture that second Wild Card spot, but the Tigers are just as likely to be that team as any of the other four, and in no way are they in a position where 2015 is a total write-off. In fact, the Tigers have better odds now than the 1997 White Sox did when they initiated the infamous White Flag Trade.

[steveschneider]

Shane Green = guaranteed loss.

[steveschneider]

Holy SHITTTTTTTTTT!!!!

[steveschneider]

Wow!!!!

[Floyd Robertson]

From @blessyouboys

[steveschneider]

Good inning by Green and the outfielders.

[Guest]

From @blessyouboys

JD did spank that sumbitch.

[HT]

When I read about Dombrowski's contract ending in '15 and no extension talks it made me think Dombrowski moves to a different team after the season.  He's a proven commodity and has taken 2 teams to the World Series.

Didn't know about the rumors but have considered Mike Illitch's age (85) and health have to be of some concern to Dombrowski.  He's had a close relationship with Mike Illitch and who knows what the other Ilitch's think of him.

Dombrowski to the Blue Jays would be plausible.  He doesn't know when Mike Illlitch relenquishes control or how things could change with Chris Illitch as his boss or if Chris (and Marion) might choose to sell the Tigers.

Rogers Communcations is the 100% owner of the Blue Jats.  They have deep pockets and are the ATT/Verizon of Canada.  He gets his last contract and builds a team through trades one more time.

I wouldn't mind if Dumbroski went. He's failed miserably with the bullpen for 3 seasons straight. I think with the amount of money the Tigers are willing to spend others can do the job as effectively.

Tigers could do a lot worse than Dombrowski and he's the guy who got them out of the mire they were in for the 90s and early 00s.

I think he's ultimately good enough for the job, although I do think the Tigers could do better...I really don't know who they could pluck now, though. Some new blood in the organization wouldn't hurt, though.

[Guest]

Yoenis!!!

[WhiteBoyHatcher]

467. Not bad. Furthest HR in Comerica history.

[steveschneider]

Cespedes is the man!

[steveschneider]

Yoenis!!!

He's my favorite tiger. I hope they don't sell and sign him at the end of the season.

[HT]

Yoenis!!!

He's my favorite tiger. I hope they don't sell and sign him at the end  of the season.

He wants to test free agency, though (I wanna say I read it on MLB Trade Rumors), and as much as I like him (I LOVE the OF the Tigers have this year), I just don't see the Tigers beating out teams like the Yankees and Cubs for Cespedes given how much money is tied up in Verlander, Martinez, Cabrera, and Sanchez.

Although, $44 million is coming off the books this season, so it's possible. I do want them to make extending JD Martinez a priority, though. Lock him up long-term before his value skyrockets even further.

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