To cut costs, Flint poisons its residents with lead

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:34 am

There is no debate about right or wrong. People agree that what happened in Flint is wrong. However, was this not only wrong but also criminal? The numbers seem small, but the long-term implications of lead poisoning can be significant. This is a big deal. At the bottom of the page is a link to a multipart series on Michigan Public Radio that offers more details and insight.

Even as other problems with Flint's water were uncovered — bacterial contamination, as well as high levels of other contaminants that can cause liver problems — the lead poisoning remained hidden.

In late June, an employee at the US Environmental Protection Agency's Chicago office leaked a report on Flint's water to a local activist, whose son had developed a rash after swimming in a pool filled with Flint water and was diagnosed with lead poisoning. It said tests found high lead levels in the water. The city had told the woman the lead came from her plumbing, not the water.

But Flint continued to deny it, saying the report was released prematurely by a "rogue employee." Flint's lead problem wasn't made public until early fall, after outside researchers from Virginia Tech got involved and found extremely high levels of lead in the water of some Flint homes — and elevated levels in 40 percent of the homes the researchers tested.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/15/10237054/flint-lead-poisoning

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:54 am

This is xsanguine's ideal society there. Some ubermench is making a mint off those worthless parasites.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:59 am

something tells me that this would never happen in Bloomfield Hills.

by **DWags** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:01 am

This is what I wrote in the other thread:

Snyder should be arrested. Absolutely fucking criminal what those fuckers did in Flint. And if it was my kid with lead poisoning I promise you I would fucking somehow get my pound of flesh from that fucker somehow.

I hate Michael Moore, but he's right this time. Fucking kids lives are ruined.
he emergency manager who decided to use flint river water for use instead of buying Lake Huron water from Detroit to save money? Who the fuck would make a decision to use flint river water and it's acidic composition? Like I say, that idea was approved by the Snyder administration. Now, citizens who paid taxes, bought houses, stuck it out in piece of shit flint, didn't know their pipes were being broken down. when the kids were tested last fucking year and some had lead traces three times as high as they should, and those reports were pooh poohed, but these cock suckers they all should be arrested.

And that piece of shit Mayor from Flint who through snyder a lifeline because he is giving her some power back and he "apologized" to her, can lick my ball sack too. Power hungry bitch. Like I say I hate Michael Moore, but he put it best, you can't drink and drive in America and run over a 4 year old kid and get out and say you're sorry. That's not how the justice system works, and some cock suckers better be arrested. This isn't about political parties, it's about human decency.

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:03 am

Robert J Sakimano wrote:something tells me that this would never happen in Bloomfield Hills.

On Tuesday, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder declared a state of emergency over a lead crisis in Flint, Michigan, where 4 percent of children have elevated levels of lead in their bloodstream — twice what the rate was just years ago.

As Vox's Libby Nelson explained, the root of the crisis is budget problems: Faced with financial constraints, officials made cuts that effectively allowed the city's water to get contaminated with more lead.

But an overlooked aspect of the crisis is how it represents a common thread in lead exposure issues: Lead often hits black communities hardest. Flint, for one, is nearly 57 percent black, much higher than the state average of 14 percent, according to US Census Bureau data.

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10724536/flint-michigan-lead-exposure-race

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:05 am

Rocinante wrote:This is xsanguine's ideal society there. Some ubermench is making a mint off those worthless parasites.

I do not think that is the case at all. How is Flint his idea society? I know he should be asking the question, but I am curious.

by **DWags** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:09 am

For those who are wondering what Michael Moore said ( and I really don't like him): and I'm paraphrasing.

"Snyder should be prosecuted. Going to Flint and saying your sorry isn't enough. It was his negligence and the emergency managers negligence that caused this. Those actions will lead to death or some form of mental or physical effects. It's like the drunk driver who gets inhis car and kills somebody. He didn't plan on doing it, but he did it through poor decisions and negligence"

I can't say this enough. The people who stuck it out in Flint, had nothing to do with the corrupt government and poor management there. Nothing. They are grinding every day to make a living, pay their taxes and keep the city alive. Their houses there now, in no fucking way, can ever be sold. They've lost value completely because nobody would buy them. Ever. That's over. But that's not the worst part. They've been unknowingly, poisoned by assholes who haphazardly put a policy in place that will perhaps cause death, or some other sicknesses further down the line. And their crime was sticking it out, grinding for flint, trying to make a living. I'd like the penalty to be for Snyder to have to drink lead in the water for 12 months daily. I'd also like for his kids to ahve to do it. If he doesn't agree to that, fuck it, put him in prison.

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:23 am

Turtleneck wrote:
Rocinante wrote:This is xsanguine's ideal society there. Some ubermench is making a mint off those worthless parasites.

I do not think that is the case at all. How is Flint his idea society? I know he should be asking the question, but I am curious.

Are you kidding? It's a model of pure market. It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway. If they could afford better water they'd get it. Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books. Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water. Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision. Come to think of it, fuck it. each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:25 am

DWags wrote:For those who are wondering what Michael Moore said ( and I really don't like him): and I'm paraphrasing.

"Snyder should be prosecuted. Going to Flint and saying your sorry isn't enough. It was his negligence and the emergency managers negligence that caused this. Those actions will lead to death or some form of mental or physical effects. It's like the drunk driver who gets inhis car and kills somebody. He didn't plan on doing it, but he did it through poor decisions and negligence"

I can't say this enough. The people who stuck it out in Flint, had nothing to do with the corrupt government and poor management there. Nothing. They are grinding every day to make a living, pay their taxes and keep the city alive. Their houses there now, in no fucking way, can ever be sold. They've lost value completely because nobody would buy them. Ever. That's over. But that's not the worst part. They've been unknowingly, poisoned by assholes who haphazardly put a policy in place that will perhaps cause death, or some other sicknesses further down the line. And their crime was sticking it out, grinding for flint, trying to make a living. I'd like the penalty to be for Snyder to have to drink lead in the water for 12 months daily. I'd also like for his kids to ahve to do it. If he doesn't agree to that, fuck it, put him in prison.

Hi dwags,

I haven't been able to keep up on this story, but it's clear you have so let me ask you, did the people that made this decision and Snyder and such, know that there was that much lead in the water and how bad it would be beforehand? I'm just curious. Based on your post it sounds like they did.

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:54 am

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder refused Thursday to say when he knew the Flint water crisis — children being poisoned by lead from their drinking taps — was being mishandled.

At a press conference after a meeting with the city's mayor, Snyder said reporters and the public would have to wait for the final report on the public health debacle.

"We're going to do this in a comprehensive fashion, not a piecemeal fashion," Snyder said to repeated questions about his role.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/michigan-gov-rick-snyder-mum-what-he-knew-about-flint-n492266

by **DWags** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:57 am

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
DWags wrote:For those who are wondering what Michael Moore said ( and I really don't like him): and I'm paraphrasing.

"Snyder should be prosecuted. Going to Flint and saying your sorry isn't enough. It was his negligence and the emergency managers negligence that caused this. Those actions will lead to death or some form of mental or physical effects. It's like the drunk driver who gets inhis car and kills somebody. He didn't plan on doing it, but he did it through poor decisions and negligence"

I can't say this enough. The people who stuck it out in Flint, had nothing to do with the corrupt government and poor management there. Nothing. They are grinding every day to make a living, pay their taxes and keep the city alive. Their houses there now, in no fucking way, can ever be sold. They've lost value completely because nobody would buy them. Ever. That's over. But that's not the worst part. They've been unknowingly, poisoned by assholes who haphazardly put a policy in place that will perhaps cause death, or some other sicknesses further down the line. And their crime was sticking it out, grinding for flint, trying to make a living. I'd like the penalty to be for Snyder to have to drink lead in the water for 12 months daily. I'd also like for his kids to ahve to do it. If he doesn't agree to that, fuck it, put him in prison.

Hi dwags,

I haven't been able to keep up on this story, but it's clear you have so let me ask you, did the people that made this decision and Snyder and such, know that there was that much lead in the water and how bad it would be beforehand? I'm just curious. Based on your post it sounds like they did.

Do drunk drivers know if they're over .08? I don't know. But when dealing with public health or safety, you can't go to court and use the phrase "sorry, I didn't know"

It's that simple. It's your job to know.

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:59 am

Turtleneck wrote:
Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder refused Thursday to say when he knew the Flint water crisis — children being poisoned by lead from their drinking taps — was being mishandled.

At a press conference after a meeting with the city's mayor, Snyder said reporters and the public would have to wait for the final report on the public health debacle.

"We're going to do this in a comprehensive fashion, not a piecemeal fashion," Snyder said to repeated questions about his role.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/michigan-gov-rick-snyder-mum-what-he-knew-about-flint-n492266

Translation: Meeting with lawyers. Stand by for plausible deniability.

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:02 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I do not think that is the case at all. How is Flint his idea society? I know he should be asking the question, but I am curious.

Are you kidding? It's a model of pure market. It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway. If they could afford better water they'd get it. Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books. Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water. Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision. Come to think of it, fuck it. each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.

From a market standpoint, I see your point. Looking at the big picture, this was all set in motion by market failures that began decades ago.

However, there is clearly a role for poor political decision-making in all of this, and that speaks to X's concerns about a small group of people making decisions for the many.

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:15 pm

Turtleneck wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Are you kidding? It's a model of pure market. It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway. If they could afford better water they'd get it. Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books. Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water. Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision. Come to think of it, fuck it. each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.

From a market standpoint, I see your point. Looking at the big picture, this was all set in motion by market failures that began decades ago.

However, there is clearly a role for poor political decision-making in all of this, and that speaks to X's concerns about a small group of people making decisions for the many.

That is not his concern at all, or the concern of any libertarians. There is no "many" there is only the individual and the individual's rights in their worldview. There is no collective. the libertarian philosophy is every person for himself, the market is supreme and unerring, property is a sacred right, and taxes are theft. Any service provided by a collective is coercion unless every individual has agreed to pay, and does pay, whatever the service costs. Therefore anyone who does not have the resources to pay for the service should not get the service and is a parasite, feeding off the rest. So this cost cutting measure was completely legitimate, as it would take less money from those who had not agreed to spend it on people who could not afford the better source of water. Anyone with resources would ensure that they had healthy water and the rest be damned.

by **steveschneider** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:15 pm

DWags wrote:This is what I wrote in the other thread:

Snyder should be arrested. Absolutely fucking criminal what those fuckers did in Flint. And if it was my kid with lead poisoning I promise you I would fucking somehow get my pound of flesh from that fucker somehow.

I hate Michael Moore, but he's right this time. Fucking kids lives are ruined.
he emergency manager who decided to use flint river water for use instead of buying Lake Huron water from Detroit to save money? Who the fuck would make a decision to use flint river water and it's acidic composition? Like I say, that idea was approved by the Snyder administration. Now, citizens who paid taxes, bought houses, stuck it out in piece of shit flint, didn't know their pipes were being broken down. when the kids were tested last fucking year and some had lead traces three times as high as they should, and those reports were pooh poohed, but these cock suckers they all should be arrested.

And that piece of shit Mayor from Flint who through snyder a lifeline because he is giving her some power back and he "apologized" to her, can lick my ball sack too. Power hungry bitch. Like I say I hate Michael Moore, but he put it best, you can't drink and drive in America and run over a 4 year old kid and get out and say you're sorry. That's not how the justice system works, and some cock suckers better be arrested. This isn't about political parties, it's about human decency.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Spot on.

And even if he didn't poison your cities water, how can you people in that state lay back and trust this guy to be in control of your own water supply?

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:18 pm

DWags wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Hi dwags,

I haven't been able to keep up on this story, but it's clear you have so let me ask you, did the people that made this decision and Snyder and such, know that there was that much lead in the water and how bad it would be beforehand? I'm just curious. Based on your post it sounds like they did.

Do drunk drivers know if they're over .08? I don't know. But when dealing with public health or safety, you can't go to court and use the phrase "sorry, I didn't know"

It's that simple. It's your job to know.

That's true. You are correct.

Though, I don't know if I'd quite liken it to drunk driving. That's a topic for a different thread though because it's more about drunk driving than anything.

by **steveschneider** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:37 pm

Also, why do people still live in Flint? I'd probably just cut my losses and leave.

by **The_Dude** Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:43 pm

Fucked up situation. pale

by **GRR Spartan** Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:13 pm

This whole Flint water mess and how it's connected to the governor with the Emergency Managers, their power, the DEQ and the way it's keeps unfolding reminds me of how Watergate got started and finally ended the Nixon Presidency.

Yesterday, Flnt's mayor goes to Lansing (Maybe Snyder didn't want to be asked to drink the water) and in the brief photo op after Gov. Snyder flat out refused to answer any direct questions of when he knew there were problems.

by **I.B. Fine** Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:54 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I do not think that is the case at all. How is Flint his idea society? I know he should be asking the question, but I am curious.

Are you kidding? It's a model of pure market. It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway. If they could afford better water they'd get it. Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books. Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water. Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision. Come to think of it, fuck it. each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.

I have to disagree with you on one point, this is not a model of a pure market, obvious cost factors were ignored or overlooked in the decision process.
In this day and age, we know far to much about water quality to ignore it as a possibility and the costs associated with people drinking unsafe water. If they were considered, the choice of using Detroit water would have proven far cheaper.
Why those costs were ignored is the basis of an investigation into negligence, very possibly criminal.

by **The_Dude** Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:12 pm

GRR Spartan wrote:This whole Flint water mess and how it's connected to the governor with the Emergency Managers, their power, the DEQ and the way it's keeps unfolding reminds me of how Watergate got started and finally ended the Nixon Presidency.

Yesterday, Flnt's mayor goes to Lansing (Maybe Snyder didn't want to be asked to drink the water) and in the brief photo op after Gov. Snyder flat out refused to answer any direct questions of when he knew there were problems.

To cut costs, Flint poisons its residents with lead 502811600

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:13 pm

I.B. Fine wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Are you kidding? It's a model of pure market. It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway. If they could afford better water they'd get it. Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books. Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water. Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision. Come to think of it, fuck it. each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.

I have to disagree with you on one point, this is not a model of a pure market, obvious cost factors were ignored or overlooked in the decision process.
In this day and age, we know far to much about water quality to ignore it as a possibility and the costs associated with people drinking unsafe water. If they were considered, the choice of using Detroit water would have proven far cheaper.
Why those costs were ignored is the basis of an investigation into negligence, very possibly criminal.

Ah, but the costs associated with people drinking unsafe water are only a "cost" if we assume someone else has the responsibility to provide safe drinking water to these people and it is not, in actuality, their own responsibility to ensure that they get safe drinking water. There is no "cost"; the market will drive the unsafe water away because nobody will buy it and only pure, clean water will remain!!! ALL HAIL THE MARKET!!!! If you get sick from drinking water, you clearly did not care enough about your health to ensure you had clean water. It is a risk that all players in the almighty market must assess. How much is clean water worth, TO YOU?

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:54 pm

So roughly 4 months ago, I'm meeting with a doc office in flint for my job; and while I was waiting I grabed a drink of water from the facet.

Someone in the staff went bug eyed and yelled "don't drink the water!" well I had been living under a rock apparently and didn't know about the lead. I have probably had about 3 ish glasses of water in flint last year.

So I think the point I'm making, is that I'm gone.

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:59 pm

Dendrobates wrote:So roughly 4 months ago, I'm meeting with a doc office in flint for my job; and while I was waiting I grabed a drink of water from the facet.

Someone in the staff went bug eyed and yelled "don't drink the water!" well I had been living under a rock apparently and didn't know about the lead. I have probably had about 3 ish glasses of water in flint last year.

So I think the point I'm making, is that I'm gone.

You're fine, but don't plan on procreating.

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:00 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:So roughly 4 months ago, I'm meeting with a doc office in flint for my job; and while I was waiting I grabed a drink of water from the facet.

Someone in the staff went bug eyed and yelled "don't drink the water!" well I had been living under a rock apparently and didn't know about the lead. I have probably had about 3 ish glasses of water in flint last year.

So I think the point I'm making, is that I'm gone.

You're fine, but don't plan on procreating.

Sweet! For reals? I can use this to get the hubby off my back.

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:01 pm

Dendrobates wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

You're fine, but don't plan on procreating.

Sweet! For reals? I can use this to get the hubby off my back.

Dude, bring up pictures of kids born to parents with high lead on their blood and you'll never want to look at a baby again.

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:06 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:

Sweet! For reals? I can use this to get the hubby off my back.

Dude, bring up pictures of kids born to parents with high lead on their blood and you'll never want to look at a baby again.

Nice. Children are evil anyway

That does bring to a real and serious question. Would drinking 3-4 glasses of that water contain enough lead to do damage? Or is it only if someone used it on an avg daily bases?

by **Rocinante** Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:36 pm

Dendrobates wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Dude, bring up pictures of kids born to parents with high lead on their blood and you'll never want to look at a baby again.

Nice. Children are evil anyway

That does bring to a real and serious question. Would drinking 3-4 glasses of that water contain enough lead to do damage? Or is it only if someone used it on an avg daily bases?

I'm sure you're fine. Think about all the shit people used the water for. You can't cook lead out.

by **Turtleneck** Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:38 pm

Dendrobates wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Dude, bring up pictures of kids born to parents with high lead on their blood and you'll never want to look at a baby again.

Nice. Children are evil anyway

That does bring to a real and serious question. Would drinking 3-4 glasses of that water contain enough lead to do damage? Or is it only if someone used it on an avg daily bases?

Does lead poisoning make you glow in the dark?

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:50 pm

Rocinante wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:

Nice. Children are evil anyway

That does bring to a real and serious question. Would drinking 3-4 glasses of that water contain enough lead to do damage? Or is it only if someone used it on an avg daily bases?

I'm sure you're fine. Think about all the shit people used the water for. You can't cook lead out.

That is what I'm assuming. It wasn't much. But then again. Its flint. Never know how much lead you're getting in a glass of water!

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:51 pm

Turtleneck wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:

Nice. Children are evil anyway

That does bring to a real and serious question. Would drinking 3-4 glasses of that water contain enough lead to do damage? Or is it only if someone used it on an avg daily bases?

Does lead poisoning make you glow in the dark?

That would be sweet if it did. I wouldn't be such a klutz in the dark.

by **I.B. Fine** Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:54 pm

Dendrobates wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

I'm sure you're fine. Think about all the shit people used the water for. You can't cook lead out.

That is what I'm assuming. It wasn't much. But then again. Its flint. Never know how much lead you're getting in a glass of water!

If you ever get pulled over for speeding, you have an excuse, lead poisoning, it all settled to your foot.

by **Dendrobates** Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:57 pm

I.B. Fine wrote:
Dendrobates wrote:

That is what I'm assuming. It wasn't much. But then again. Its flint. Never know how much lead you're getting in a glass of water!

If you ever get pulled over for speeding, you have an excuse, lead poisoning, it all settled to your foot.

Ha. I don't think my company would approve of that excuse with me driving a company car. But would be funny to say.

by **Turtleneck** Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:51 pm

Expert says Michigan officials changed a Flint lead report to avoid federal action
http://michiganradio.org/post/expert-says-michigan-officials-changed-flint-lead-report-avoid-federal-action#stream/0

by **GRR Spartan** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:00 pm

I'm shocked Governor Snyder hasn't told Flint residents the state will refund their water bills from April 2014 until the water meets Federal water quality standards.

Those folks were paying for toxic water for over a year.

by **tGreenWay** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:09 pm

This is criminal conduct and people need to go to prison for this. And yes, as GRR said, residents must be reimbursed.

by **Jake from State Farm** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:19 pm

tGreenWay wrote:This is criminal conduct and people need to go to prison for this. And yes, as GRR said, residents must be reimbursed.

Jst like the bankruptcy in Detroit, all the citizens of Michigan get to kick in their share to pay for the criminal acts of politicians and their cronies.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:21 pm

Who is going to be the government's scapegoat? Some lower level official that no one has heard of I'm sure.

by **DWags** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:25 pm

Somebody needs to go to prison if that story is true.

by **Jake from State Farm** Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:33 pm

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Who is going to be the government's scapegoat? Some lower level official that no one has heard of I'm sure.

Snyder was probably hoping that it would all go away when the DEQ Director quit. Now he has to find someone else and I doubt it's going to be him.

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