To cut costs, Flint poisons its residents with lead

DWags wrote:Somebody needs to go to prison if that story is true.

Agreed.

Snyder is finding no cover. He showed up for his annual PR appearance at the auto show and he's getting grilled on Flint water by national media.
Worse, Flint is becoming a national story that won't go away.

Before its over this might have big legs like killing any chance of AG Schuette to become MI's next governor.

GRR Spartan wrote:

Before its over this might have big legs like killing any chance of AG Schuette to become MI's next governor.

We can only hope.

This is flints Erin Brockovich moment.

GRR Spartan wrote:Snyder is finding no cover. He showed up for his annual PR appearance at the auto show and he's getting grilled on Flint water by national media.
Worse, Flint is becoming a national story that won't go away.

Before its over this might have big legs like killing any chance of AG Schuette to become MI's next governor.

Let's see what balls he had. Will he say the buck stops with him ? He certainly had no problem making people buck up under cuts and the good people made bricks with less straw by consolidating and working together. Now let's see if it's passed down the line.

First job as a public official: the people's safety who have you in office. Then make cuts with that in mind.

Is Flint so fucked that the nation hears about this and collectively shrugs their shoulders? This is a pretty big deal and the response seems to be, "Typical Flint. Whatcha gonna do?"

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Is Flint so fucked that the nation hears about this and collectively shrugs their shoulders? This is a pretty big deal and the response seems to be, "Typical Flint. Whatcha gonna do?"

Unfortunately, Michigan is seen this way because of Detroit and Flint. It's like when tRCMB makes fun of Alabama for being hick Southerners. The rest of the nation thinks of Michigan as an Alabama of the North.

It's not right, but when major Michigan cities crap the bed for 60 years, it is what it is.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Is Flint so fucked that the nation hears about this and collectively shrugs their shoulders? This is a pretty big deal and the response seems to be, "Typical Flint. Whatcha gonna do?"

Flint is Michigan's city that had a one trick pony economy dependent on one employer that bailed. IN has Gary, Ohio has Youngstown and PA has Allentown.

But those circumstances don't give the Snyder administration, the state DEQ for water quality or the state appointed emergency managers a free pass for the ham handed way they attempted to save money.

Just a couple of years ago Snyder was being touted as VP material. Now he's politically radioactive.

GRR Spartan wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Is Flint so fucked that the nation hears about this and collectively shrugs their shoulders? This is a pretty big deal and the response seems to be, "Typical Flint. Whatcha gonna do?"

Flint is Michigan's city that had a one trick pony economy dependent on one employer that bailed. IN has Gary, Ohio has Youngstown and PA has Allentown.

But those circumstances don't give the Snyder administration, the state DEQ for water quality or the state appointed emergency managers a free pass for the ham handed way they attempted to save money.

Just a couple of years ago Snyder was being touted as VP material. Now he's politically radioactive.

Yup. But GM didn't really bail...the workers took greed to unfounded level to the point where GM basically said fuck you.

The pay and benefits for Flint GM workers in the 80s was ungodly for unskilled labor...and it wasn't enough.

It looks like things are getting better in Flint. Just kidding.

(CNN)Residents of Flint, Michigan, already reeling because of lead contamination in their drinking water, got more disturbing news on Wednesday.

Gov. Rick Snyder announced the number of cases of Legionnaires' disease has spiked in Genesee County in the two years since Flint switched its water supply from the Great Lakes to the Flint River.

But the increase cannot be directly attributed to the switch, said Nick Lyon, director of the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services. Not all the people who got Legionnaires' were exposed to Flint water, he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/13/health/flint-michigan-water-crisis/

Fuck!!

Here come the FEMA camps!!!


Snyder asks Obama to declare federal emergency in Flint

Lansing — Gov. Rick Snyder late Thursday asked President Barack Obama to declare a federal emergency in Flint and expedite major disaster relief in Genesee County as a result of the city’s lead-contaminated water crisis.

Flint’s water contamination crisis would only qualify for federal emergency status — not natural disaster assistance — since it was a man-made disaster.

On Tuesday, Snyder activated the Michigan National Guard to help distribute water supplies in Flint and requested the Federal Emergency Management Agency coordinate with other federal agencies to provide resources and expertise fixing the city’s lead-tainted water supply.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/14/snyder-asks-obama-declare-federal-emergency-flint/78831312/

Wow, EPA knew about this for months and buried it.


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/12/epa-stayed-silent-flints-tainted-water/78719620/

Grand Rapids is better than Detroit/Flint combined.

Giant Moose wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:Is Flint so fucked that the nation hears about this and collectively shrugs their shoulders? This is a pretty big deal and the response seems to be, "Typical Flint. Whatcha gonna do?"

Unfortunately, Michigan is seen this way because of Detroit and Flint. It's like when tRCMB makes fun of Alabama for being hick Southerners. The rest of the nation thinks of Michigan as an Alabama of the North.

It's not right, but when major Michigan cities crap the bed for 60 years, it is what it is.

Most people out east just don't know about it because no one was covering it. That's the problem.

Detroit Freep and Det News were silent about this story for a great deal of time. They spent more resources covering Harbaugh's milk drinking habits than covering Flint's water.

Credit goes to Rachel Maddow for helping this story take off.

Daily Show eviscerated Flint in their segment last night. Is it true, they were only saving $100 a day by making the switch and now its going to cost $1.5 billion to fix the pipes?

InTenSity wrote:Daily Show eviscerated Flint in their segment last night. Is it true, they were only saving $100 a day by making the switch and now its going to cost $1.5 billion to fix the pipes?

Many municipal water supply system are outdates and have lead pipes. Not sure about the $100 a day savings so can't comment on that.

But yeah, fixing water infrastructure is very costly and that's why it doesn't get fixed until a major disaster occurs.

The decision to use Flint river water was fine. The problem was the water treatment people who are in charge never administered corrosive inhibitors so that when the water flowed through the lead pipes they didn't gradually corrode the pipes leading to lead filtering down into the water supply.

Seems like a bunch of government agencies and bureaucrats doing what they do best--finger pointing. EPA knew about it last spring and argued with the sate environmental agency over procedure. Par for the course...government honks arguing over procedure when people are suffering.

Turtleneck wrote:Here come the FEMA camps!!!


Snyder asks Obama to declare federal emergency in Flint

Lansing — Gov. Rick Snyder late Thursday asked President Barack Obama to declare a federal emergency in Flint and expedite major disaster relief in Genesee County as a result of the city’s lead-contaminated water crisis.

Flint’s water contamination crisis would only qualify for federal emergency status — not natural disaster assistance — since it was a man-made disaster.

On Tuesday, Snyder activated the Michigan National Guard to help distribute water supplies in Flint and requested the Federal Emergency Management Agency coordinate with other federal agencies to provide resources and expertise fixing the city’s lead-tainted water supply.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/14/snyder-asks-obama-declare-federal-emergency-flint/78831312/

so a "get government out of my life" republican runs to the government for help?

Sounds about right.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Here come the FEMA camps!!!


Snyder asks Obama to declare federal emergency in Flint



http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/14/snyder-asks-obama-declare-federal-emergency-flint/78831312/

so a "get government out of my life" republican runs to the government for help?

Sounds about right.

Snyder is a get government out of my life Republican?

You confusing him with Ted Cruz?

The_Dude wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:so a "get government out of my life" republican runs to the government for help?

Sounds about right.

Snyder is a get government out of my life Republican?

You confusing him with Ted Cruz?

I don't like Snyder but I would never confuse him with a dangerous religious cult leader like Cruz.

There’s been a failure at all levels to accurately assess the scale of the public health crisis in Flint, and that problem is ongoing,” said state Senate Minority Leader Jim Ananich, D-Flint. “However, the EPA’s Miguel Del Toral did excellent work in trying to expose this disaster. Anyone who read his memo and failed to act should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.”

DWags wrote:There’s been a failure at all levels to accurately assess the scale of the public health crisis in Flint, and that problem is ongoing,” said state Senate Minority Leader Jim Ananich, D-Flint. “However, the EPA’s Miguel Del Toral did excellent work in trying to expose this disaster. Anyone who read his memo and failed to act should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.”

Agreed that there were failures at all levels. But its even more scarier that someone tried to warn the public and was silenced or had his memo buried. Despicable.

I don't know if this will work, so I'll post the link to Daily Show segment, as well.

Ok, I don't see how to post a non YouTube video.

InTenSity wrote:I don't know if this will work, so I'll post the link to Daily Show segment, as well.

Ok, I don't see how to post a non YouTube video.

Once again, not that simple.  The water would have been fine if the proper treatments were provided but they weren't, name;y corrosive inhibitor.

InTenSity wrote:Daily Show eviscerated Flint in their segment last night. Is it true, they were only saving $100 a day by making the switch and now its going to cost $1.5 billion to fix the pipes?

Not quite accurate, they could have prevented the disaster by spending $100 a day to treat the river water. Now it's going to cost 1.5 billion to fix it according to estimates.

InTenSity wrote:Daily Show eviscerated Flint in their segment last night. Is it true, they were only saving $100 a day by making the switch and now its going to cost $1.5 billion to fix the pipes?

good stuff, I just watched it.

steveschneider wrote:

InTenSity wrote:Daily Show eviscerated Flint in their segment last night. Is it true, they were only saving $100 a day by making the switch and now its going to cost $1.5 billion to fix the pipes?

Not quite accurate, they could have prevented the disaster by spending $100 a day to treat the river water. Now it's going to cost 1.5 billion to fix it according to estimates.

Hmmm wonder where the one time 1.5 billion is coming from?

GRR Spartan wrote:Before its over this might have big legs like killing any chance of AG Schuette to become MI's next governor.

We can only hope.

DWags wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Not quite accurate, they could have prevented the disaster by spending $100 a day to treat the river water. Now it's going to cost 1.5 billion to fix it according to estimates.

Hmmm wonder where the one time 1.5 billion is coming from?

You ever watch the Kids In The Hall? Screw You Taxpayers sketch may answer your question. It's a classic!

Rocinante wrote:This is xsanguine's ideal society there. Some ubermench is making a mint off those worthless parasites.

Yes, my ideal society is a government run one. You caught me, Roc. You're pretty sharp.

Rocinante wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

I do not think that is the case at all. How is Flint his idea society? I know he should be asking the question, but I am curious.

Are you kidding?  It's a model of pure market.  It's cheaper to pull water from the river than other sources, and these parasites can only pay for the river water anyway.  If they could afford better water they'd get it.  Nothing is more important than paying off debtors and balancing the books.  Everything else is just sponging off those who work for their water.  Hell, the governor did what any great, small-government conservative would do and bypassed the public to appoint the great man that made this decision.  Come to think of it, fuck it.  each person should be able to pay for their own water treatment anyway, so let them buy buckets and haul it on their own.  

I'm surprised I never noticed this.

This model is purely market? Let's talk out this situation...

Flint is getting their water from Detroit. Do you remember a little story from a few years back where the residents of Detroit were having their water turned off for non payment and had a stink because they believe they were entitled to having someone else do the work of treating the water and then delivering it, gift wrapped, to their homes?

Yeah... that's purely market, Roc. You got me, dude!

I hate that nowadays we have to give a disclaimer for every fucking thing...

The government put Flint in a position to have to seek water from elsewhere because of rising bills caused by the subsidizing (government backed forced association) the residents of Detroit who didn't want to pay a bill for the labor of others but felt they were entitled to the labor of others.

The government finds a new water source but because government is inept (surprise, surprise!!!) they don't know what the fuck they are doing and then when someone clues them in on the fact they're poisoning people... they cover it up.

tl;dr - Government forces association... government realizes they're causing inflation through forced association...government has to find a fix for their self-inflicted inflation because of their forced association... government fucks it up.... government covers up the fuck up... people die.

Roc calls that a free market. Genius.

Trolling you isn't as fun when you're a week behind.

Rocinante wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

I have to disagree with you on one point, this is not a model of a pure market, obvious cost factors were ignored or overlooked in the decision process.
In this day and age, we know far to much about water quality to ignore it as a possibility and the costs associated with people drinking unsafe water. If they were considered, the choice of using Detroit water would have proven far cheaper.
Why those costs were ignored is the basis of an investigation into negligence, very possibly criminal.

Ah, but the costs associated with people drinking unsafe water are only a "cost" if we assume someone else has the responsibility to provide safe drinking water to these people and it is not, in actuality, their own responsibility to ensure that they get safe drinking water.  There is no "cost"; the market will drive the unsafe water away because nobody will buy it and only pure, clean water will remain!!!  ALL HAIL THE MARKET!!!!  If you get sick from drinking water, you clearly did not care enough about your health to ensure you had clean water.  It is a risk that all players in the almighty market must assess.  How much is clean water worth, TO YOU?  

Rocinante wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:

From a market standpoint, I see your point. Looking at the big picture, this was all set in motion by market failures that began decades ago.

However, there is clearly a role for poor political decision-making in all of this, and that speaks to X's concerns about a small group of people making decisions for the many.

That is not his concern at all, or the concern of any libertarians.  There is no "many" there is only the individual and the individual's rights in their worldview.  There is no collective.  the libertarian philosophy is every person for himself, the market is supreme and unerring, property is a sacred right, and taxes are theft.  Any service provided by a collective is coercion unless every individual has agreed to pay, and does pay, whatever the service costs.  Therefore anyone who does not have the resources to pay for the service should not get the service and is a parasite, feeding off the rest.  So this cost cutting measure was completely legitimate, as it would take less money from those who had not agreed to spend it on people who could not afford the better source of water.  Anyone with resources would ensure that they had healthy water and the rest be damned.

I'm not a libertarian, Roc.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Edit: And I'm not trying to be a jerk, you're a good poster but I wasn't sure how else to say it without typing out another book.

Rocinante wrote:Trolling you isn't as fun when you're a week behind.

I didn't get a lot of sleep this week.

But it's easy to troll me when you suggest government failures are the result of a free market (that has never existed).

Fuck you both I want someone arrested I don't want debates on the social contract. Too late for that shit now.

DWags wrote:Fuck you both I want someone arrested I don't want debates on  the social contract.  Too late for that shit now.

Someone SHOULD be arrested. People should be much more pissed about this than they are and they seem pretty pissed. Government is a cancer and we should have debates because shit like this is going to continue to happen like it always has.

Edit: Besides... we can't arrest anyone, dude. We'll get shot if we approach an agent of the state with the intention of snatching him. That's why we debate about it because what else are we going to do? Take some water to the residents if you're looking for some way to help or join the protests at the capitol to show your support. Lots of good people are doing this and will continue... hopefully it accomplishes something

xsanguine wrote:

DWags wrote:Fuck you both I want someone arrested I don't want debates on  the social contract.  Too late for that shit now.

Someone SHOULD be arrested. People should be much more pissed about this than they are and they seem pretty pissed. Government is a cancer and we should have debates because shit like this is going to continue to happen like it always has.

Edit: Besides... we can't arrest anyone, dude. We'll get shot if we approach an agent of the state with the intention of snatching him. That's why we debate about it because what else are we going to do? Take some water to the residents if you're looking for some way to help or join the protests at the capitol to show your support. Lots of good people are doing this and will continue... hopefully it accomplishes something

I'll let you roll with this because I'm legit pissef about the willful neglect practiced by people who chose to be in those positions. Fuck those bastards that didn't put people's safety first.

But since you'll take it on a tangent I'll say we need government, I'll quote Hamilton as to why, and be done with it.

"Why should government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint.”

DWags wrote:

xsanguine wrote:

Someone SHOULD be arrested. People should be much more pissed about this than they are and they seem pretty pissed. Government is a cancer and we should have debates because shit like this is going to continue to happen like it always has.

Edit: Besides... we can't arrest anyone, dude. We'll get shot if we approach an agent of the state with the intention of snatching him. That's why we debate about it because what else are we going to do? Take some water to the residents if you're looking for some way to help or join the protests at the capitol to show your support. Lots of good people are doing this and will continue... hopefully it accomplishes something

I'll let you roll with this because I'm legit pissef about the willful neglect practiced by people who chose to be in those positions. Fuck those bastards that didn't put people's safety first.

But since you'll take it on a tangent I'll say we need government, I'll quote Hamilton as to why, and be done with it.

"Why should government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint.”

I'm pissed, too. I'm not sure why you seem to be implying that my personal apolitical philosophy renders me incapable of experiencing anger over the situation.

We need government? We have government. There's your government right there, Dwags; A quote from a politician on why we need politicians. Of course!
We need the government like Bensonhurst needs the mafia.

Obama grants Synder's wish: Flint declared federal emergency.

FEMA camps probably being setup now.

Obama will use this moment to personally disarm America.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/01/16/president-obama-declares-emergency-flint/78898604/