The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III

by **steveschneider** 2017-01-10, 23:08

In the third and final act of this story, a potential scandal that not even the orange one will be able to piss away.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-intelligence.html?_r=0

And there's this -

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

This will go down as one of the biggest scandals in our nations history.

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-01-10, 23:13

Wait and see how many of the freedom loving "conservatives" and GOP pols will line up behind Trump and use the "Fake News" to dispute anything that is revealed.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-10, 23:14

First, we have no idea if any of these allegations are true. Yes, they are explosive; they are also entirely unsubstantiated, at least to our knowledge, at this stage. For this reason, even now, we are not going to discuss the specific allegations within the document.

Second, while unproven, the allegations are being taken quite seriously. The President and President-elect do not get briefed on material that the intelligence community does not believe to be at least of some credibility. The individual who generated them is apparently a person whose work intelligence professionals take seriously. And at a personal level, we can attest that we have had a lot of conversations with a lot of different people about the material in this document. While nobody has confirmed any of the allegations, both inside government and in the press, it is clear to us that they are the subject of serious attention.

Third, precisely because it is being taken seriously, it is—despite being unproven and, in public anyway, undiscussed—pervasively affecting the broader discussion of Russian hacking of the election. CNN reported that Senator John McCain personally delivered a copy of the document to FBI Director James Comey on December 9th. Consider McCain’s comments about the gravity of the Russian hacking episode at last week’s Armed Services Committee hearing in light of that fact. Likewise, consider Senator Ron Wyden’s questioning of Comey at today’s Senate Intelligence Committee hearing, in which Wyden pushed the FBI Director to release a declassified assessment before January 20th regarding contact between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. (Comey refused to comment on an ongoing investigation.)

So while people are being delicate about discussing wholly unproven allegations, the document is at the front of everyone’s minds as they ponder the question: Why is Trump so insistent about vindicating Russia from the hacking charges that everyone else seems to accept?

Fourth, it is significant that the document contains highly specific allegations, many of which are the kind of facts it should be possible to prove or disprove. This is a document about meetings that either took place or did not take place, stays in hotels that either happened or didn’t, travel that either happened or did not happen. It should be possible to know whether at least some of these allegations are true or false.

Finally, fifth, it is important to emphasize that this is not a case of the intelligence community leaking sensitive information about an investigative subject out of revenge or any other improper motive. This type of information, referencing sensitive sources and methods and the identities of U.S. persons, is typically treated by the intelligence community with the utmost care. And this material, in fact, does not come from the intelligence community; it comes, rather, from private intelligence documents put together by a company. It is actually not even classified.

All of which is to say to everyone: slow down, and take a deep breath. We shouldn’t assume either that this is simply a “fake news” episode directed at discrediting Trump or that the dam has now broken and the truth is coming out at last. We don’t know what the reality is here, and the better part of valor is not to get ahead ahead of the facts—a matter on which, incidentally, the press deserves a lot of credit.

https://lawfareblog.com/about-explosive-trump-story-take-deep-breath

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-10, 23:26

GRR Spartan wrote:Wait and see how many of the freedom loving "conservatives" and GOP pols will line up behind Trump and use the "Fake News" to dispute anything that is revealed.

Tell the press to be honest and I'll believe them. Until then, I'll pass. Only themselves to blame.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-10, 23:28

The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation.

I found this passage from the Guardian article to be interesting, Steve. But maybe not as interesting as this.

Another of the reports compiled by the former western counter-intelligence official in July said that members of Trump’s team, which was led by campaign manager Paul Manafort (a former consultant for pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine), had knowledge of the DNC hacking operation, and in return “had agreed to sideline Russian intervention in Ukraine as a campaign issue and to raise US/Nato defence commitments in the Baltics and Eastern Europe to deflect attention away from Ukraine”.

A few days later, Trump raised the possibility that his administration might recognise Russia’s annexation of Crimea and openly called on Moscow to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails.

The problem is we are at point where people embrace fake news, lazy thought, and even lazier research. It will be interesting to see where this goes, but it goes nowhere if it cannot be substantiated. We should not believe something simply because we want to believe it. Nonetheless, we can expect more information to come out and an attempt to corroborate these claims.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-11, 00:01

I bet this is fake news or a hoax. Any takers?

by **xsanguine** 2017-01-11, 00:09

Now this is some shit I can get into....

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2017-01-11, 00:17

The_Dude wrote:I bet this is fake news or a hoax. Any takers?

Lol you must be spinning in circles.

I'm going to sit back and enjoy this. Baaaa!!!

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-11, 00:23

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
The_Dude wrote:I bet this is fake news or a hoax. Any takers?

Lol you must be spinning in circles.

I'm going to sit back and enjoy this. Baaaa!!!

Enjoy what exactly?

The complete mental breakdowns of the left over this election was orgasmic. Even if trump loses his re election it was well worth seeing the libs cry. Lol

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2017-01-11, 01:45

The_Dude wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Lol you must be spinning in circles.

I'm going to sit back and enjoy this. Baaaa!!!

Enjoy what exactly?

The complete mental breakdowns of the left over this election was orgasmic. Even if trump loses his re election it was well worth seeing the libs cry. Lol

One day I hope you stop being a political mouthpiece for people who truly do not give a flying fuck about you. One day.

by **xsanguine** 2017-01-11, 02:06

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Enjoy what exactly?

The complete mental breakdowns of the left over this election was orgasmic. Even if trump loses his re election it was well worth seeing the libs cry. Lol

One day I hope you stop being a political mouthpiece for people who truly do not give a flying fuck about you. One day.

I really want to fight you over this comment, OTPT. But I've had 4 white russians (racist) and possibly influenced by watching No Country For Old Men for the 4th time in 3 days... the point is, I fear I will regret starting a fight with a poster I like even though it's kind of my m.o.

We can even psychoanalyze that statement a few different ways. You're a psych grad, right?

by **xsanguine** 2017-01-11, 02:12

By fight I just mean I wanted to make a snarky comment, not actual violence. I apologize for that.

Please read my posts in Woody Harrelson's character's voice.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-11, 09:28

funny watching patriotic Republicans trust the Russian government more than they do the American government.

The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III 502811600

The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III 502811600

The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III Giphy

by Guest 2017-01-11, 11:15

steveschneider wrote:In the third and final act of this story, a potential scandal that not even the orange one will be able to piss away.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-intelligence.html?_r=0

And there's this -

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

This will go down as one of the biggest scandals in our nations history.

Or one of the largest piles of bullshit. Which way are you wagering?

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-11, 11:21

OTPT lol.

I called it first response in this thread.

Poor Democrats lol

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-11, 12:19

Jon Henke ‏@JonHenke 4m4 minutes ago
Donald Trump — the Obama Birther who linked Ted Cruz’s dad to the JFK assassination — is deeply upset about dubious allegations.

by TheReal_LWS 2017-01-11, 13:11

Speaking of Russians:

The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III 0bama10

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-11, 13:24

Turtleneck wrote:Jon Henke ‏@JonHenke 4m4 minutes ago
Donald Trump — the Obama Birther who linked Ted Cruz’s dad to the JFK assassination — is deeply upset about dubious allegations.

And round and round and round we go.

It never ends, does it?

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2017-01-11, 14:26

The_Dude wrote:OTPT lol.

I called it first response in this thread.

Poor Democrats lol

Poor sheep* you are no different than grr lebowski

by **DWags** 2017-01-11, 14:55

I certainly am hoping this is all bullshit. Again, I'm amazed at who this is disarmed. Guys like McCain were worried about this,a nd yet staunch right wingers like Goose seem to dismiss this with great prejudice. I'm Impressed that Russia really has been able to do that to the right in our country.

I hope this is all bullshit, I hope it's fake news. But whether it is or not, we have guys who dismiss this as hogwash. I don't think it should be dismissed in that manner. Reagan would always say verify everything. I'm guessing for some reason the right wingers on this board are saying they believe our intelligence community is full of shit.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2017-01-11, 15:00

DWags wrote:I certainly am hoping this is all bullshit. Again, I'm amazed at who this is disarmed. Guys like McCain were worried about this,a nd yet staunch right wingers like Goose seem to dismiss this with great prejudice. I'm Impressed that Russia really has been able to do that to the right in our country.

I hope this is all bullshit, I hope it's fake news. But whether it is or not, we have guys who dismiss this as hogwash. I don't think it should be dismissed in that manner. Reagan would always say verify everything. I'm guessing for some reason the right wingers on this board are saying they believe our intelligence community is full of shit.

when the racist, sexist, bigoted admitted sexual predator refers to it as "fake news" you can be assured that it's 100% accurate.

I wouldn't wait on the mainstream media to report negative things about Cheeto Hitler, either. They played a huge role in getting him elected and the deplorables love themselves some "news" - so he's good for ratings.

by **The_Dude** 2017-01-11, 15:27

DWags wrote:I certainly am hoping this is all bullshit. Again, I'm amazed at who this is disarmed. Guys like McCain were worried about this,a nd yet staunch right wingers like Goose seem to dismiss this with great prejudice. I'm Impressed that Russia really has been able to do that to the right in our country.

I hope this is all bullshit, I hope it's fake news. But whether it is or not, we have guys who dismiss this as hogwash. I don't think it should be dismissed in that manner. Reagan would always say verify everything. I'm guessing for some reason the right wingers on this board are saying they believe our intelligence community is full of shit.

Its fake news, Wags.

You've gone off the deep end with the Trump win.

The GOP is now considered the normal, well adjusted party and the Democrats are seedn as conspiracy nuts and radicals.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

by **kingstonlake** 2017-01-11, 16:08

Trump innocent and story made-up

Cleaves guilty and a rapist.

Shocking take.....I know

by **Cameron** 2017-01-11, 16:47

Whether or not this golden shower stuff is true, it speaks volumes about our president elect that such an outrageous story is sufficiently in character for him to have the allegations be taken seriously.

If this had come out before the election, would it even have hurt Trump? Serious question. Nothing he has ever done or said is sufficiently objectionable to dissuade his supporters from voting for him, so why would this have been any different?

by Guest 2017-01-11, 16:55

DWags wrote:I certainly am hoping this is all bullshit. Again, I'm amazed at who this is disarmed. Guys like McCain were worried about this,a nd yet staunch right wingers like Goose seem to dismiss this with great prejudice. I'm Impressed that Russia really has been able to do that to the right in our country.

I hope this is all bullshit, I hope it's fake news. But whether it is or not, we have guys who dismiss this as hogwash. I don't think it should be dismissed in that manner. Reagan would always say verify everything. I'm guessing for some reason the right wingers on this board are saying they believe our intelligence community is full of shit.

Wags? Someone has been shopping this shit since before the election. When EVERY reputable news organization looked at what would have been one of the biggest scoops in history and passed, it tells me that it was screaming bullshit. So far that seems to be the case.

by AnomanderRake 2017-01-11, 16:59

The_Dude wrote:
DWags wrote:I certainly am hoping this is all bullshit. Again, I'm amazed at who this is disarmed. Guys like McCain were worried about this,a nd yet staunch right wingers like Goose seem to dismiss this with great prejudice. I'm Impressed that Russia really has been able to do that to the right in our country.

I hope this is all bullshit, I hope it's fake news. But whether it is or not, we have guys who dismiss this as hogwash. I don't think it should be dismissed in that manner. Reagan would always say verify everything. I'm guessing for some reason the right wingers on this board are saying they believe our intelligence community is full of shit.

Its fake news, Wags.

You've gone off the deep end with the Trump win.

The GOP is now considered the normal, well adjusted party and the Democrats are seedn as conspiracy nuts and radicals.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

Dude, you know it was John McCain, a republican, that delivered the intelligence dossier to the FBI?

Also are you sure it's fake news? Why would the FBI issue a FISA request on 4 Trump cabinet members over fake news?

Not saying I believe the allegations but it's most definitely not "fake news". It involves real people, sources, documents and large news networks not some cracked out blogger making things up.

by TheReal_LWS 2017-01-11, 17:04

AnomanderRake wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Its fake news, Wags.

You've gone off the deep end with the Trump win.

The GOP is now considered the normal, well adjusted party and the Democrats are seedn as conspiracy nuts and radicals.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

Dude, you know it was John McCain, a RINO, that delivered the intelligence dossier to the FBI?

Also are you sure it's fake news? Why would the FBI issue a FISA request on 4 Trump cabinet members over fake news?

Not saying I believe the allegations but it's most definitely not "fake news". It involves real people, sources, documents and large news networks not some cracked out blogger making things up.

FIFY

by **Cameron** 2017-01-11, 17:07

AnomanderRake wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Its fake news, Wags.

You've gone off the deep end with the Trump win.

The GOP is now considered the normal, well adjusted party and the Democrats are seedn as conspiracy nuts and radicals.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

Dude, you know it was John McCain, a republican, that delivered the intelligence dossier to the FBI?

Also are you sure it's fake news? Why would the FBI issue a FISA request on 4 Trump cabinet members over fake news?

Not saying I believe the allegations but it's most definitely not "fake news". It involves real people, sources, documents and large news networks not some cracked out blogger making things up.

Haven't you heard? "Fake news" doesn't mean fake anymore. Dumbasses like lebowski got tired of having it thrown in their faces that all the bullshit chain emails and made up pedophilia pizza stories that inform their worldview were complete fabrications, so they started calling everything that they disagree with fake news to discredit the term and make it meaningless. All "fake news" means now is "I don't like that story."

How we're meant to refer to actual fabrications masquerading as news now is beyond me, but that's where we're at. Trump won.

by **DWags** 2017-01-11, 17:20

AnomanderRake wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Its fake news, Wags.

You've gone off the deep end with the Trump win.

The GOP is now considered the normal, well adjusted party and the Democrats are seedn as conspiracy nuts and radicals.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

Dude, you know it was John McCain, a republican, that delivered the intelligence dossier to the FBI?

Also are you sure it's fake news? Why would the FBI issue a FISA request on 4 Trump cabinet members over fake news?

Not saying I believe the allegations but it's most definitely not "fake news". It involves real people, sources, documents and large news networks not some cracked out blogger making things up.

Yeah, I hope it's bullshit. What still amazes me is how will the right ever claim the high ground in anything after this guy is their flag bearer.

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-01-11, 17:29

Goose should be on Trump's payroll.

There's Kelly Ann Conway and then there is Goose.

by Herbie Green 2017-01-11, 17:43

DWags wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:

Dude, you know it was John McCain, a republican, that delivered the intelligence dossier to the FBI?

Also are you sure it's fake news? Why would the FBI issue a FISA request on 4 Trump cabinet members over fake news?

Not saying I believe the allegations but it's most definitely not "fake news". It involves real people, sources, documents and large news networks not some cracked out blogger making things up.

Yeah, I hope it's bullshit. What still amazes me is how will the right ever claim the high ground in anything after this guy is their flag bearer.

Why do you hope its bullshit? I honestly hope something happens that forces him out of office sooner than later.

by **DWags** 2017-01-11, 18:07

Herbie Green wrote:
DWags wrote:

Yeah, I hope it's bullshit. What still amazes me is how will the right ever claim the high ground in anything after this guy is their flag bearer.

Why do you hope its bullshit? I honestly hope something happens that forces him out of office sooner than later.

Because if true, it scares the shit out of me. I grew up in the Cold War. It was real. I do t trust those fuckers. Never will.

by Guest 2017-01-11, 18:11

GRR Spartan wrote:Goose should be on Trump's payroll.

There's Kelly Ann Conway and then there is Goose.

So tell us what part(s) you think is true. We'll see what your record for accuracy is when all the checking/vetting is done.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-01-11, 18:21

GRR Spartan wrote:Goose should be on Trump's payroll.

There's Kelly Ann Conway and then there is Goose.

Loose would push every story about Clinton no matter how outrageous or what dark corner of the Internet it came from. He did not care whether it could be substantiated or corroborated. ~~He once posted links about Clinton from a guy that formerly edited this prize winning news magazine~~ (edit: that was somebody else). I can only imagine Loose's strong preference for objectivity has him treating Trump the same way in respect to this story.

by **Rocinante** 2017-01-11, 18:22

Today has been an especially unproductive day...

by **MiamiSpartan** 2017-01-11, 19:09

If the Golden Shower story was supposed to be Russia's big chip to blackmail Trump, haven't they pretty much swung and missed? I mean, that would be about the tamest of the sexual-related things that he's done that we all knew about even before the election. Seems kind of like trying to use video of a jaywalking incident to gain leverage on a convicted car thief.

Of course, Trump probably never knew how much other stupid shit that he's said/done would come out and still get elected, so he may have already been in bed (pun intended) with the Russians, before that, fearing that the Golden Shower story would derail his campaign.

Either way, there's enough here that it needs to be looked into further (by media and the FBI, as each have different sources/capabilities). But there are also enough reasons to question it that people shouldn't take the reports at face value at this point. For as much as Trump likes to bash the NY Times, he'd do well to note in the article linked in the OP, that they are taking a pretty fair approach, and point out that at least one of the memos is proven to be bogus (the meeting in Prague), and that the firm that did this report was hired by Trump's opponents during the primary and by Hillary's people. If there is more to this, it will come out. If not, this is will just be Trump's version of the Obama birth certificate questions (ironically championed by Trump, of course).

by TheReal_LWS 2017-01-11, 19:52

DWags wrote:
Herbie Green wrote:

Why do you hope its bullshit? I honestly hope something happens that forces him out of office sooner than later.

Because if true, it scares the shit out of me. I grew up in the Cold War. It was real. I do t trust those fuckers. Never will.

Are you talking about our country or theirs? The Russians and the 2016 Election PT III 1494614055

by **xsanguine** 2017-01-11, 20:47

MiamiSpartan wrote:If the Golden Shower story was supposed to be Russia's big chip to blackmail Trump, haven't they pretty much swung and missed? I mean, that would be about the tamest of the sexual-related things that he's done that we all knew about even before the election. Seems kind of like trying to use video of a jaywalking incident to gain leverage on a convicted car thief.

That's tame? Geez, I'm starting to question what I thought was a pretty respectable sexual history.

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-01-11, 20:54

All Trump has to do is continue to call anything that's less than complimentary "Fake News" and the same folks who voted for him will still support him.

We read what some of them think about any negatives that are reported.

Kelly Ann Conway tells us we shouldn't believe what comes out of Trump's mouth, we need to know what he meant in his heart.

by **xsanguine** 2017-01-11, 21:06

What if its really fake news, GRR?

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