The Russians and the 2016 Election PT II

Confirmed that the Russians tampered with the 2016 US election and tried to help Trump win.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/2016/12/09/31d6b300-be2a-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.7dbdb4912ce1



I remember as a kid sitting in the movie theater for Rocky IV. The theater was full of republicans and democrats and we all cheered when Rocky kicked Ivan Drago's ass.

Just a reminder it's 2016 and the Russians are STILL the bad guys. I'm a proud American and I don't want any fucking country tampering with our elections.

Good luck convincing one supporter. They could be eating borscht getting paid in rubles wearing grey jump suits into work camps and they'd still be going home and celebrating 800 jobs saved for their comrades in Indiana.

"Doesn't matter. Our team won. Whine some more stupid libs."

I won't even try to dispute that they tried....all speculation for now.

Here's my question:  "Do you really believe that a coal miner in PA, a logger in northern Michigan or a dairy farmer in northern WI was swayed to vote Trump by some nefarious Russian propaganda?"


If so, I say you're falling prey to more "stupid Trump voters" preconceived notions.

LooseGoose wrote:I won't even try to dispute that they tried....all speculation for now.

Here's my question:  "Do you really believe that a coal miner in PA, a logger in northern Michigan or a dairy farmer in northern WI was swayed to vote Trump by some nefarious Russian propaganda?"


If so, I say you're falling prey to more "stupid Trump voters" preconceived notions.

Speaking of people calling trump supporters stupid...

LooseGoose wrote: would have bet any amount against him.   I'm glad I didn't bet against the stupidity of the American voter.  So far it looks like we'll have 2 of the most disliked, dishonest people in public life to choose from as our next President.

https://spartanswill.forumotion.com/t11259-trump-is-your-republican-nominee-cruz-just-suspended-his-campaign#283127

IF you want to know why the Dems lost I'll get you something to read that seems pretty close to me. I was going to dump this into Bob's jobs thread on Monday but will post it now. And guess what? The Russians didn't have a damned thing to do with it - both political parties have though as they took turns in power.

Don’t buy the lie that Obama’s leaving behind a healthy economy

These geniuses remind me of Mark Twain trying to palm off the idea that “Wagner’s music is better than it sounds.” If the economy is so all-fired ducky, how come Americans just tossed out the party that’s claiming credit for it?

The truth is that the Obama years have been among America’s worst for the economy. His eight years will go down in history as the Great Recession, even though for much, even most, of the span, we weren’t technically in a recession.

It just felt that way. And no wonder. Obama’s is the only modern presidency that failed to show a single year of growth above 3 percent, a point Trump stressed during the campaign (and that was conceded even by the website Politifact).

Plus, the Obama economy failed to prosper even though the Federal Reserve had its pedal to the metal. Its quantitative easing, $2 trillion balance-sheet expansion and zero-interest-rate policy all produced zilch.

All this is why Bloomberg News has been reporting the “Rust Belt’s transformation into the Trump Belt.” It cites this week new research on “how bad things have become” in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

For older men in those states, Bloomberg reports, inflation-adjusted pay is below the level in — wait for it — 1979. That’s two generations lost. In those swing states, the idea that Obama is handing back a booming economy will be seen there as an absurd boast.

Even if, in the last month or so, what economists call the “animal spirits” of economic activity have begun to stir. That’s because of the possibility that the credit already belongs to Trump.

Even though he’s not yet president. My own theory is that the millions of minds that make up the American electorate knew way before the pollsters that Trump was going to win this election.

They grasped that the Democrats’ high taxes and onerous regulation were drawing to an end. They’ve already begun betting that The Donald, no professional politician, will make good on his promises.

LooseGoose wrote:I won't even try to dispute that they tried....all speculation for now.

Here's my question:  "Do you really believe that a coal miner in PA, a logger in northern Michigan or a dairy farmer in northern WI was swayed to vote Trump by some nefarious Russian propaganda?"


If so, I say you're falling prey to more "stupid Trump voters" preconceived notions.

Do you believe they did because snooty libs went into those towns and belittled them? Hard to believe people vote on emotion vs self interest but some people claim it's so.

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:I won't even try to dispute that they tried....all speculation for now.

Here's my question:  "Do you really believe that a coal miner in PA, a logger in northern Michigan or a dairy farmer in northern WI was swayed to vote Trump by some nefarious Russian propaganda?"


If so, I say you're falling prey to more "stupid Trump voters" preconceived notions.

Do you believe they did because snooty libs went into those towns and belittled them? Hard to believe people vote on emotion vs self interest but some people claim it's so.

https://www.amazon.com/White-Trash-400-Year-History-America/dp/0670785970/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481338738&sr=8-1&keywords=white+trash

https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-Culture/dp/0062300547/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7AYWZ5BA5QNWYZRVQR8J

https://www.amazon.com/What-Populism-Jan-Werner-M%C3%BCller/dp/0812248988/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1481338770&sr=8-1&keywords=populism

The leaked emails were lead items for the cable news and "conservative" media.  They kept the Email/crooked Hillary narrative going after the Benghazi committee never got a smoking gun.  There is evidence a lot of Trump voters believed  and passed on the faux news of the DC pizza place being HQ for a child abduction ring run by the Clintons.  There were 1000's of people who believed and forwarded the faux news story of Hillary Clinton ordering the murder of an FBI agent.

Conservative voters will be denying Trump's friendly attitudes towards Russia and deny that Russia could ever do anything to affect their vote. We see the same thing where there is evidence of Russian politics nfluencing the Brexit vote with faux news .  But no U.K. Voter who helped ed approve Brexit will ever admit a Russian or any other country could affect their vote.

Trump won MI by less than 12,000 votes with 4.5M votes cast.  Trump carried PA by less than 100,000 and WI by less than 23,000.  

Long way of saying it's very possible that between the hacked email leaks and faux news that more than 1% of Trump voters were swayed by faux new propaganda treated as serious news and hacked emails had their effect.  

But I know you'll be down to your last breath telling whoever who will listen that enough Trump voters were well informed and  immune to subtrafuge by Russia or any foreign power that would affect an national election in the US.

You know I thought the Trump campaign was in bed with Putin before the RNC convention and to date nothing has made me think I was wrong.

Then there's the problematic story reported by the Washington Post.

Trump will be convicing his supporters that Putin is relatively harmless. Its ISIS and the Muslims who are the enemy.

GRR Spartan wrote:Then there's this problematic story reported by the Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/09/the-cia-concluded-russia-worked-to-elect-trump-republicans-now-face-an-impossible-choice/?utm_term=.303054c899f4

Fake news, bro.

I forgot Turtleneck.

Another stroke of genius of the Trump campaign. Its all fake news now.

I almost wonder if the tampering didn't go back to the primaries on the RNC side. Trump was obviously their pick.

I could live with a Jeb or Kasich presidency. The only reason why I'm so active in this forum and reading more about politics at an alarming rate is because of my grave concern over Putin.

We can not have American elections interfered with by Putin/the Russians PERIOD.

We need confidence in our electoral system. I'm old enough to remember when the republicans hated the Russians.

Yes, it's terrible that the Russkies exposed the truth of the conspiracy between the DNC and Hillary to shut Bernie out. Those son of a bitches should have kept that dirty shit secret.

Too bad for America that only the city dwelling sophisticates could look past that crap and vote Hills. Those stupid knuckle draggers in the country didn't vote for her even after she was found cheating. Dumb asses. Where are their brains?

And the CIA? They're dead on with this assessment. They were wrong in Iraq. They were wrong in Syria. They were wrong in Libya. They were wrong in Iran. In general we hate those fucking spies. But in THIS CASE, they're dead on right. And no, it's not just because we want to believe it.

Goose I don't think you are a bad guy personally but you've pretty much admitted you are a conservative and now are justifying Russian hacking of a US political party.

That's troublng. But it makes me wonder why you thnk Russian involvement in US elections is acceptable and would you welcome further involvement by Russia to defeat the next canddate you support to get them elected.

goose is not a republican

LooseGoose wrote:Too bad for America that only the city dwelling sophisticates could look past that crap and vote Hills. Those stupid knuckle draggers in the country didn't vote for her even after she was found cheating. Dumb asses. Where are their brains?

It's a lot easier to look past a guy grabbing women by the pussy cause he can. But lord don't dare appoint anyone pro choice to the SC.

That's also pretty fucked up mentally if you ask me.

As far as the Russians. I don't know which bothers me more. Dems fucking over Bernie which is an assault directly on our democracy and frankly arrests should be made, ir the Russians manipulating shit to help a friend get elected. Both are equally horrifying. As horrifying as how so many people can be hypocrites in the way they choose their ethics and morals toward women and abortion.

It's fucked up. And scary.

http://nyti.ms/2h66r4O

New York Times advances the plot.

“We now have high confidence that they hacked the D.N.C. and the R.N.C., and conspicuously released no documents” from the Republican organization, one senior administration official said, referring to the Russians.

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:Too bad for America that only the city dwelling sophisticates could look past that crap and vote Hills. Those stupid knuckle draggers in the country didn't vote for her even after she was found cheating. Dumb asses. Where are their brains?

It's a lot easier to look past a guy grabbing women by the pussy cause he can. But lord don't dare appoint anyone pro choice to the SC.

That's also pretty fucked up mentally if you ask me.

As far as the Russians. I don't know which bothers me more. Dems fucking over Bernie which is an assault directly on our democracy and frankly arrests should be made, ir the Russians manipulating shit to help a friend get elected. Both are equally horrifying. As horrifying as how so many people can be hypocrites in the way they choose their ethics and morals toward women and abortion.

It's fucked up. And scary.

Re: DNC and Bernie, yeah it's upsetting but lets not forget politics has always been a dirty game. The 2008 primaries between Obama and HC was as dirty a primary as there ever was.

Also, don't forget about 2000 election when McCain had some momentum and the fake story about him fathering children with black prostitutes.

It has always been this way, there's nothing illegal about it. I was also the one all summer whining that Bernie was getting hosed and you better believe I got over it. I bought into the argument 100% that Trump and Trumpism had to be stopped.

My criticism of wikileaks is they are an arm of the russians, and they are always conveniently embarrassing enemies of Putin. We are a year away from the German election and how convenient, Wikileaks is dumping info on Germany that is embarrassing. I wonder why?

GRR Spartan wrote:Goose I don't think you are a bad guy personally but you've pretty much admitted you are a conservative and now are justifying Russian hacking of a US political party.

That's troublng. But it makes me wonder why you thnk Russian involvement in US elections is acceptable and would you welcome further involvement by Russia to defeat the next canddate you support to get them elected.

I'm not justifying it at all.

1) I'm not convinced yet that they did the hacking.
2) I'm amused by the sudden liberal love for the CIA.
3) I don't think they "helped" Trump at all. I think that's a myth and a rather stupid one at that.

So now that this is about trump .. goose downplays the media's influence on the election after creating/bumping every day in a thread about how bias the media is.

You just can't make this shit up.

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:Too bad for America that only the city dwelling sophisticates could look past that crap and vote Hills. Those stupid knuckle draggers in the country didn't vote for her even after she was found cheating. Dumb asses. Where are their brains?

It's a lot easier to look past a guy grabbing women by the pussy cause he can. But lord don't dare appoint anyone pro choice to the SC.

That's also pretty fucked up mentally if you ask me.

As far as the Russians. I don't know which bothers me more. Dems fucking over Bernie which is an assault directly on our democracy and frankly arrests should be made, ir the Russians manipulating shit to help a friend get elected. Both are equally horrifying. As horrifying as how so many people can be hypocrites in the way they choose their ethics and morals toward women and abortion.

It's fucked up. And scary.

Pro choice - pro killing babies - it's all the same. but I agree that "pro-choice" is the better term for delicate company.


Tell me about the ethics of stilling the beating heart of an innocent child.

I'll listen to your convincing argument on why that should be celebrated?

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:goose is not a republican:lolz:

OTPT? I know this goes over your head because of your limited knowledge of politics.

But I'm not a Republican. I'm a Conservative. There's a difference, many Republicans are not Conservatives.

Does that mean I support many of the same positions, yep. But Republicans in general would be to the left of me.

Just as Bernie would be a Liberal and not a Democrat and most Democrats would be to the right of him.

Hope that helps. I know this messes up your desire to label everyone but it is what it is.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:So now that this is about trump .. goose downplays the media's influence on the election after creating/bumping every day in a thread about how bias the media is.

You just can't make this shit up.

Where am I downplaying their influence of the media?    Or are you saying all of the media is under the control of the Russians? I'm downplaying the effect of any "Russian influence". Jeezus it's soon time to start selling tin foil hats to the Dems and in here.

Are you denying the bias of the media?  Christ the evidence is all over out there, even the media has admitted it post election.  I could link you to 5-10 articles in the Times/etc reflecting on that.

While I disagree with some posters here who seem to justify what the Russians did to get a candidate they favored elected was acceptable because Hillary Clnton was the other candidate, they are all private citizens.

For years we have been told and facts have proven the two major parties have been financed by American citizens and American groups.

This news has convinced me the GOP leadership knew what we know now prior to the election and they made a choice. They made a well informed decision to tacitly accept Russian help to get their candidate elected rather than tell the American voting public of Russia's/Putin's intentions and let the voters decide if that was pertinant information.

The GOP leadership chose sdes and they sold out. Next time anyone talks to me about the US having free elections unencumbered by foreign interference I'll walk away. The GOP chose to accept the help of an authoritorian enemy of the US to win the 2016 election.

GRR Spartan wrote:The GOP leadership chose sdes and they sold out. Next time anyone talks to me about the US having free elections unencumbered by foreign interference I'll walk away. The GOP chose to accept the help of an authoritorian enemy of the US to win the 2016 election.

Tell me specifically how they "chose to accept the help"??

Chris Arnade ‏@Chris_arnade 3h3 hours ago
Voted for Obama twice.
Voted for Sanders in primary.
Voted for Trump in general.
=============

Smart.
Smarter.
Smartest.
Russian influenced dolt.

That's his progression according to posters here.

LooseGoose wrote:
Chris Arnade ‏@Chris_arnade 3h3 hours ago
Voted for Obama twice.
Voted for Sanders in primary.
Voted for Trump in general.
=============

Smart.
Smarter.
Smartest.
Russian influenced dolt.

That's his progression according to posters here.

I love how you conveniently ignore the fact that back in the spring (primaries) you were the one calling Trump voters stupid.

I'm going to start a bi-partisan movement and start praising sane conservatives, or at least conservatives acting sane about this matter -

Evan McMullin ‏@Evan_McMullin 15h15 hours ago

What's new is that our leaders have become so self-serving that they're willing to sacrifice our national security for their own power.


Former independent presidential candidate, CIA operative, House GOP, Wharton, BYU. Advancing liberty & equality in America. Inquiries: press@evanmcmullin.com

It seems simple. If intelligence indicates Russia (or any foreign country) attempted to influence the election, or tampered in even the most subtle of ways, there should be an investigation. There cannot be a situation where foreign interference is ever tolerated.

As I posted in the electoral college thread, one of the reasons for the electoral college was to subvert foreign influence in our election. This was a concern dating back to the early days of our republic. As the story develops it should be taken seriously.

I do not think Republican-led opposition to investigating this claim is helpful. In fact, it would be bad move for Republicans. Republicans should be motivated to investigate to prove there was no collusion between the winning candidate and Russia, and that this was, if true, Russia acting independently.

Turtleneck wrote:It seems simple. If intelligence indicates Russia (or any foreign country) attempted to influence the election, or tampered in even the most subtle of ways, there should be an investigation. There cannot be a situation where foreign interference is ever tolerated.

As I posted in the electoral college thread, one of the reasons for the electoral college was to subvert foreign influence in our election. This was a concern dating back to early days of our republic. As the story develops it should be taken seriously.

I do not think Republican obstructionism on this issue will help. In fact, it would be bad move. Republicans should be motivated to investigate to prove there was no collusion between the winning candidate and Russia, and that this was, if true, Russia acting independently.

I agree 100%. I'm going to start cheering the republicans behaving sanely on this matter.

Thank you Lindsey Graham for behaving sanely on this.

Republican U.S. House of Representatives
from South Carolina's 3rd district

I wish Ronald Reagan could come back somehow and talk sense into the obstructionist republicans.

LooseGoose wrote:

GRR Spartan wrote:The GOP leadership chose sdes and they sold out.  Next time anyone talks to me about the US having free elections unencumbered by foreign interference  I'll walk  away.  The GOP chose to accept the help of an authoritorian enemy of the US to win the 2016 election.

Tell me specifically how they "chose to accept the help"??

The CIA informed the intelligence committees and according to reports they came to the decision to sit on the CIA information rather than release the CIA fndings to the voting public along partisan lines.  The GOP has majorities in both the House and Senate therefore it was the GOP majority that decided it was more important to win a Presidential election with Russia/Putin's help than inform voters of Russia's nvolvement prior to the election.

I won't argue it would have changed the results but I'll never waver from the idea that information of Russia being an active player in hacking both the DNC and RNC and choosng to support Trump was information that was critical for an informed electorate.

PS
Nce selfie

Turtleneck wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:
Chris Arnade ‏@Chris_arnade 3h3 hours ago
Voted for Obama twice.
Voted for Sanders in primary.
Voted for Trump in general.
=============

Smart.
Smarter.
Smartest.
Russian influenced dolt.

That's his progression according to posters here.

I love how you conveniently ignore the fact that back in the spring (primaries) you were the one calling Trump voters stupid.

They were and are. Did I call them pawns of Russia?

GRR Spartan wrote:
PS
Nce selfie

Sorry man, he's much better looking.

steveschneider wrote:Confirmed that the Russians tampered with the 2016 US election and tried to help Trump win.

OK, I'm convinced.

The Russians tampered with our election.

Who would have been responsible for preventing that? Heads must roll, I want to know who.

http://nyti.ms/2hxM9xU

Trump mocks CIA findings. This man is completely unfit to be President.

The roll call of sane republican reaction:

“To have the president-elect of the United States simply reject the fact-based narrative that the intelligence community puts together because it conflicts with his a priori assumptions — wow,” said Michael V. Hayden, who was the director of the N.S.A. and later the C.I.A. under President George W. Bush.

The Republicans who lead the congressional committees overseeing intelligence, the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security take the opposite view. They say that Russia was behind the election meddling, but that the scope and intent of the operation need deep investigation, hearings and public reports.

“We cannot allow foreign governments to interfere in our democracy,” Representative Michael McCaul, a Texas Republican who is the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee and was considered by Mr. Trump for secretary of Homeland Security

Russian activity was “a call to action,” as has Senator John McCain, one of the few senators left from the Cold War era, when the Republican Party made opposition to the Soviet Union

Representative Devin Nunes, a California Republican, said on Friday that he had no doubt about Russia’s culpability.

This country needs more republicans acting sanely on this matter.