ChampionsClassic - The March continues.

NigelUno wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Comp is already opining that Miles is not anywhere near as good at the 3 as he was as a mismatch 4 for us last year. We'll see, tough game to make that judgement based off of.

Ward had 19. Jackson had 19. Bridges had 19 (and hit 5 3's).

It was hard for him to get to the basket against a big Duke team. He won't have that issue against other teams though.

Boom.

Will Grayson Allen make it through the season playing 40 min/game? I guess Bridges played 37 min, but everyone else was basically under 30 except Winston. We played 11 players, mixed amount of minutes. Duke had 2 other players in the mid 30's, then 2 other guys split time, the other 5 off the bench got about 10 min or less. I guess one of them off the bench probably helped sub for the guy who got hurt, he had 20+ minutes.
Coach K played to win this game, sticking with his starters as much as possible. I'm not going to say that Izzo didn't play to win, that would be stupid, but he played a lot more players a lot more meaningful time. Our starters average is 27.2 min, Duke avg was 34.75. I only used the 4 that weren't injured.

One other thing, Duke shot 29 FT to MSU 18.

InTenSity wrote:Will Grayson Allen make it through the season playing 40 min/game? I guess Bridges played 37 min, but everyone else was basically under 30 except Winston. We played 11 players, mixed amount of minutes. Duke had 2 other players in the mid 30's, then 2 other guys split time, the other 5 off the bench got about 10 min or less. I guess one of them off the bench probably helped sub for the guy who got hurt, he had 20+ minutes.
Coach K played to win this game, sticking with his starters as much as possible. I'm not going to say that Izzo didn't play to win, that would be stupid, but he played a lot more players a lot more meaningful time. Our starters average is 27.2 min, Duke avg was 34.75. I only used the 4 that weren't injured.

One other thing, Duke shot 29 FT to MSU 18.

To answer your first question, Duke should blow out about 95% of their schedule. There won't be any reason for him to play that many complete games this season.

Ok, fine, but in a tournament setting with one day turn around, can he play that much?

InTenSity wrote:Ok, fine, but in a tournament setting with one day turn around, can he play that much?

I don't think he can but then again who knows.

He's pretty much a 22 year old pro that stuck around to play college ball so he might be able to put up some big minutes in the tournament.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

Never forget that Nairn dropped 7 on tOSU back on Valentine's Day of '14

dropped 7

I looked that up just for you.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

Kansas and Kentucky

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

Lets use apples to apples comparisons.

Kentucky is 10-8 against Duke. Coach Cal is 1-1 against Coach K

Kansas is 4-7 against Duke. Self is 2-1 against Coach K

MSU is 2-12 against Duke, Izzo is 1-11 against Coach K

LooseGoose wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I just unbanned moose

The most productive thing you've done as a Mod.

I have cleaned my bedroom closet three times since being given Mod powers.   I think that should be considered productive.

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

Lets use apples to apples comparisons.

Kentucky is 10-8 against Duke. Coach Cal is 1-1 against Coach K

Kansas is 4-7 against Duke. Self is 2-1 against Coach K

MSU is 2-12 against Duke, Izzo is 1-11 against Coach K

Your sample sizes are a little goofy but I stand by my point that you have to look at the absolute giants of the sport to even approach a respectable record against Duke.

InTenSity wrote:Will Grayson Allen make it through the season playing 40 min/game? I guess Bridges played 37 min, but everyone else was basically under 30 except Winston. We played 11 players, mixed amount of minutes. Duke had 2 other players in the mid 30's, then 2 other guys split time, the other 5 off the bench got about 10 min or less. I guess one of them off the bench probably helped sub for the guy who got hurt, he had 20+ minutes.
Coach K played to win this game, sticking with his starters as much as possible. I'm not going to say that Izzo didn't play to win, that would be stupid, but he played a lot more players a lot more meaningful time. Our starters average is 27.2 min, Duke avg was 34.75. I only used the 4 that weren't injured.

One other thing, Duke shot 29 FT to MSU 18.

At one point in the second half, Duke had shot 20 FTs to our 6. They were shooting 60% from the line, and had still made twice as many as we had taken.

We lost last night because Duke was better than us. Better players and a better game plan.  What bothered me the most this morning was the thought that Izzo and the guy with glasses couldn't make adjustments to what K and his staff threw at us.  

Here's the other thing, and I'm repeating myself probably.   Guys like Wards are fucking junk yard dogs.   As the fight gets deeper into the game and he gets tired, he becomes more focused and aggressive.  I went to about 10 home games last year.  He was by far my favorite player.  He was that Rocky type boxer that had to play tired.  But damn, he often just rose to the occasion.  Maybe Im misremembering but when I'd get really good seats, I was fascinated by this guy.  "Saving" him in my opinion does no fucking good.  Let your big dog run and hunt in big hunts.  Small hunts, let the pups do their thing and learn.  18 minutes?  Fuck me.  When I saw Carter put that ten foot jumper off the glass that was no good and not follow his shit up, I was done.  A bent over tired 4 foul exhausted Ward would have taken it to the fucking hole and banged with people.  If you show me + and  - shit I'll laugh too.  Play the big dogs.   Allen=40 minutes.  Was he too tired to put those daggers in to are throat and then fucking laugh on the way down the court at the end.  

Fuck that.  Big game, play your best.  If they're exhausted let them puke on the side for a minute and throw McQuaid and Carter and Schilling and Goins in.  When we play North East South Florida A&M collegiate next week, throw 11 or 12 out there. That's fun.  

I hate Duke cause they break a foot off in our ass.... Constantly.   Now, the young pups on the team have a mental block against Duke too.   Great.

They weren't saving him. He still can't defend ball screens and Duval was getting layups because of it.

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

Lets use apples to apples comparisons.

Kentucky is 10-8 against Duke. Coach Cal is 1-1 against Coach K

Kansas is 4-7 against Duke. Self is 2-1 against Coach K

MSU is 2-12 against Duke, Izzo is 1-11 against Coach K

Herbie busy at

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:I guess my question is who doesn't Coach K own? .

Kansas and Kentucky

1st it was UK/KU, now he makes it Cal & Self.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

Lets use apples to apples comparisons.

Kentucky is 10-8 against Duke. Coach Cal is 1-1 against Coach K

Kansas is 4-7 against Duke. Self is 2-1 against Coach K

MSU is 2-12 against Duke, Izzo is 1-11 against Coach K

Your sample sizes are a little goofy but I stand by my point that you have to look at the absolute giants of the sport to even approach a respectable record against Duke.

We are an absolute giant. That is why we are in this four team series.

MSU is 7-6 all time against Kansas (Izzo is 5-3)

MSU is 7-5 all time against Kentucky (Izzo is 5-3)

NCAA tournament winning %:

Coach K 76.5%
Caliparii 75.0%
Izzo 71.2%
Self 70.5%

Out of all these stats I have posted, the only one that doesn't fit is Izzo's record against Coach K.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:They weren't saving him. He still can't defend ball screens and Duval was getting layups because of it.

Sp we put in Carter and Schilling?   I'll take Big Pudding.  18 minutes isn't enough for that kid.

LooseGoose wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

Lets use apples to apples comparisons.

Kentucky is 10-8 against Duke. Coach Cal is 1-1 against Coach K

Kansas is 4-7 against Duke. Self is 2-1 against Coach K

MSU is 2-12 against Duke, Izzo is 1-11 against Coach K

Herbie busy at

Herbie Green wrote:
Kansas and Kentucky

1st it was UK/KU, now he makes it Cal & Self.

I mistakenly assumed you were bright enough to infer I was talking about the Champions Classic (the title of this thread) and the frame of reference being Izzo against other current coaches. But since you proved me wrong, I clarified it for you so wouldn't compare apples to oranges.

DWags wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:They weren't saving him. He still can't defend ball screens and Duval was getting layups because of it.

Sp we put in Carter and Schilling?   I'll take Big Pudding.  18 minutes isn't enough for that kid.

Ward needs more minutes, but he gets gassed too. He was pretty winded when he came out early.

NigelUno wrote:

DWags wrote:


Sp we put in Carter and Schilling?   I'll take Big Pudding.  18 minutes isn't enough for that kid.

Ward needs more minutes, but he gets gassed too.  He was pretty winded when he came out early.  

I know that.  I'm not joking when I really think that kid gets more focused and aggressive when he's tired.  I know it sounds dumb, but I really like him deep in a game.   Tired or not.  Like I say, I was fascinated by him last year.  Was my favorite player to watch.   He has a ton of heart.  the closer the game the harder he plays.

Herbie Green wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

Herbie busy at




1st it was UK/KU, now he makes it Cal & Self.

I mistakenly assumed you were bright enough to infer I was talking about the Champions Classic (the title of this thread) and the frame of reference being Izzo against other current coaches. But since you proved me wrong, I clarified it for you so wouldn't compare apples to oranges.

So why did you bring up the UK 10-8 mark against Duke? That's counting from 1953 forward? And you want to tell me you were only referencing the Champions Classic and Izzo? Something doesn't match there.

LooseGoose wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

I mistakenly assumed you were bright enough to infer I was talking about the Champions Classic (the title of this thread) and the frame of reference being Izzo against other current coaches.  But since you proved me wrong, I clarified it for you so wouldn't compare apples to oranges.

So why did you bring up the UK 10-8 mark against Duke?  That's counting from 1953 forward?     And you want to tell me you were only referencing the Champions Classic and Izzo?   Something doesn't match there.

In Herbies case, I'm guessing three layers of the meninges and the spinal cord.  Just a wild guess.   

Bottom line, we just didn't do the opposite of what K was thinking last night.

LooseGoose wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

I mistakenly assumed you were bright enough to infer I was talking about the Champions Classic (the title of this thread) and the frame of reference being Izzo against other current coaches. But since you proved me wrong, I clarified it for you so wouldn't compare apples to oranges.

So why did you bring up the UK 10-8 mark against Duke? That's counting from 1953 forward? And you want to tell me you were only referencing the Champions Classic and Izzo? Something doesn't match there.

I can not spoon feed you any more details. You will have to figure it out from here on your own.

God I love when Herbie moves goal posts. It makes my nipples hard.

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Your sample sizes are a little goofy but I stand by my point that you have to look at the absolute giants of the sport to even approach a respectable record against Duke.

We are an absolute giant. That is why we are in this four team series.

MSU is 7-6 all time against Kansas (Izzo is 5-3)

MSU is 7-5 all time against Kentucky (Izzo is 5-3)

NCAA tournament winning %:

Coach K 76.5%
Caliparii 75.0%
Izzo 71.2%
Self 70.5%

Out of all these stats I have posted, the only one that doesn't fit is Izzo's record against Coach K.

We're Sonny Liston or George Foreman. A dominant heavyweight who happens to exist at the same time as an all time great.

Herbie Green wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

So why did you bring up the UK 10-8 mark against Duke?  That's counting from 1953 forward?     And you want to tell me you were only referencing the Champions Classic and Izzo?   Something doesn't match there.

I can not spoon feed you any more details.  You will have to figure it out from here on your own.

Oh, I think he figured you out quite a bit ago Herbie.  Just a hunch.

Herbie Green wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

So why did you bring up the UK 10-8 mark against Duke? That's counting from 1953 forward? And you want to tell me you were only referencing the Champions Classic and Izzo? Something doesn't match there.

I can not spoon feed you any more details. You will have to figure it out from here on your own.

OK Master.

DWags wrote:We lost last night because Duke was better than us. Better players and a better game plan.  What bothered me the most this morning was the thought that Izzo and the guy with glasses couldn't make adjustments to what K and his staff threw at us.  

Here's the other thing, and I'm repeating myself probably.   Guys like Wards are fucking junk yard dogs.   As the fight gets deeper into the game and he gets tired, he becomes more focused and aggressive.  I went to about 10 home games last year.  He was by far my favorite player.  He was that Rocky type boxer that had to play tired.  But damn, he often just rose to the occasion.  Maybe Im misremembering but when I'd get really good seats, I was fascinated by this guy.  "Saving" him in my opinion does no fucking good.  Let your big dog run and hunt in big hunts.  Small hunts, let the pups do their thing and learn.  18 minutes?  Fuck me.  When I saw Carter put that ten foot jumper off the glass that was no good and not follow his shit up, I was done.  A bent over tired 4 foul exhausted Ward would have taken it to the fucking hole and banged with people.  If you show me + and  - shit I'll laugh too.  Play the big dogs.   Allen=40 minutes.  Was he too tired to put those daggers in to are throat and then fucking laugh on the way down the court at the end.  

Fuck that.  Big game, play your best.  If they're exhausted let them puke on the side for a minute and throw McQuaid and Carter and Schilling and Goins in.  When we play North East South Florida A&M collegiate next week, throw 11 or 12 out there. That's fun.  

I hate Duke cause they break a foot off in our ass.... Constantly.   Now, the young pups on the team have a mental block against Duke too.   Great.

What happens when an actual big game comes along (like one that means something in the conference or the tournament), and Ward and Jackson are in foul trouble.  A conference title, or advancement in the tournament is on the line, and you want Carter, Schilling, and Goins to draw on their experience from a 40 point blowout over NESFAMC?

DWags wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

I can not spoon feed you any more details.  You will have to figure it out from here on your own.

Oh, I think he figured you out quite a bit ago Herbie.  Just a hunch.

Rather than make a hunch or a personal attack, make a point. I seem to not only be able to make one but back it up with data.

DWags wrote:We lost last night because Duke was better than us. Better players and a better game plan.  What bothered me the most this morning was the thought that Izzo and the guy with glasses couldn't make adjustments to what K and his staff threw at us.  

Here's the other thing, and I'm repeating myself probably.   Guys like Wards are fucking junk yard dogs.   As the fight gets deeper into the game and he gets tired, he becomes more focused and aggressive.  I went to about 10 home games last year.  He was by far my favorite player.  He was that Rocky type boxer that had to play tired.  But damn, he often just rose to the occasion.  Maybe Im misremembering but when I'd get really good seats, I was fascinated by this guy.  "Saving" him in my opinion does no fucking good.  Let your big dog run and hunt in big hunts.  Small hunts, let the pups do their thing and learn.  18 minutes?  Fuck me.  When I saw Carter put that ten foot jumper off the glass that was no good and not follow his shit up, I was done.  A bent over tired 4 foul exhausted Ward would have taken it to the fucking hole and banged with people.  If you show me + and  - shit I'll laugh too.  Play the big dogs.   Allen=40 minutes.  Was he too tired to put those daggers in to are throat and then fucking laugh on the way down the court at the end.  

Fuck that.  Big game, play your best.  If they're exhausted let them puke on the side for a minute and throw McQuaid and Carter and Schilling and Goins in.  When we play North East South Florida A&M collegiate next week, throw 11 or 12 out there. That's fun.  

I hate Duke cause they break a foot off in our ass.... Constantly.   Now, the young pups on the team have a mental block against Duke too.   Great.

Wow. Brilliant analysis. I guess you should be coaching the team and not Izzo.

D wags bringing it strong. No reason Jackson and Ward were not in the game late, specifically when we had a lead and could have built one. Instead they pulled away and it was too little too late.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:D wags bringing it strong. No reason Jackson and Ward were not in the game late, specifically when we had a lead and could have built one. Instead they pulled away and it was too little too late.

Just giving him a taste of his own medicine.  Dwags likes to mock anyone that criticizes MSU football coaches and asks for their coaching credentials but now is a genius criticizing the hall of fame basketball coach from the stands or his tv.  

But I have been complaining about this same thing for 20 years.  How many more final fours and national championships do you think Izzo would have if he would shorten his bench?

At least 14 or 15.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

DWags wrote:We lost last night because Duke was better than us. Better players and a better game plan.  What bothered me the most this morning was the thought that Izzo and the guy with glasses couldn't make adjustments to what K and his staff threw at us.  

Here's the other thing, and I'm repeating myself probably.   Guys like Wards are fucking junk yard dogs.   As the fight gets deeper into the game and he gets tired, he becomes more focused and aggressive.  I went to about 10 home games last year.  He was by far my favorite player.  He was that Rocky type boxer that had to play tired.  But damn, he often just rose to the occasion.  Maybe Im misremembering but when I'd get really good seats, I was fascinated by this guy.  "Saving" him in my opinion does no fucking good.  Let your big dog run and hunt in big hunts.  Small hunts, let the pups do their thing and learn.  18 minutes?  Fuck me.  When I saw Carter put that ten foot jumper off the glass that was no good and not follow his shit up, I was done.  A bent over tired 4 foul exhausted Ward would have taken it to the fucking hole and banged with people.  If you show me + and  - shit I'll laugh too.  Play the big dogs.   Allen=40 minutes.  Was he too tired to put those daggers in to are throat and then fucking laugh on the way down the court at the end.  

Fuck that.  Big game, play your best.  If they're exhausted let them puke on the side for a minute and throw McQuaid and Carter and Schilling and Goins in.  When we play North East South Florida A&M collegiate next week, throw 11 or 12 out there. That's fun.  

I hate Duke cause they break a foot off in our ass.... Constantly.   Now, the young pups on the team have a mental block against Duke too.   Great.

What happens when an actual big game comes along (like one that means something in the conference or the tournament), and Ward and Jackson are in foul trouble.  A conference title, or advancement in the tournament is on the line, and you want Carter, Schilling, and Goins to draw on their experience from a 40 point blowout over NESFAMC?

You could very well be right, but all three of those players are upper classmen at this point. I think to win it all this year we are also going to need Ward and Jackson to improve and maybe leaving them in through the end helps them improve.

I agree with Dwags post above, Ward has so much talent and so much untapped potential. It may be ugly to watch him play at points but you leave him in if you want a chance to win a game like that. Also, I counted at least two times where Ward got mugged under the basket and no call. The reffing was pretty bad when it came to Ward.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Comp is already opining that Miles is not anywhere near as good at the 3 as he was as a mismatch 4 for us last year. We'll see, tough game to make that judgement based off of.

I think he is right. I was saying the same thing last spring.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

DWags wrote:We lost last night because Duke was better than us. Better players and a better game plan.  What bothered me the most this morning was the thought that Izzo and the guy with glasses couldn't make adjustments to what K and his staff threw at us.  

Here's the other thing, and I'm repeating myself probably.   Guys like Wards are fucking junk yard dogs.   As the fight gets deeper into the game and he gets tired, he becomes more focused and aggressive.  I went to about 10 home games last year.  He was by far my favorite player.  He was that Rocky type boxer that had to play tired.  But damn, he often just rose to the occasion.  Maybe Im misremembering but when I'd get really good seats, I was fascinated by this guy.  "Saving" him in my opinion does no fucking good.  Let your big dog run and hunt in big hunts.  Small hunts, let the pups do their thing and learn.  18 minutes?  Fuck me.  When I saw Carter put that ten foot jumper off the glass that was no good and not follow his shit up, I was done.  A bent over tired 4 foul exhausted Ward would have taken it to the fucking hole and banged with people.  If you show me + and  - shit I'll laugh too.  Play the big dogs.   Allen=40 minutes.  Was he too tired to put those daggers in to are throat and then fucking laugh on the way down the court at the end.  

Fuck that.  Big game, play your best.  If they're exhausted let them puke on the side for a minute and throw McQuaid and Carter and Schilling and Goins in.  When we play North East South Florida A&M collegiate next week, throw 11 or 12 out there. That's fun.  

I hate Duke cause they break a foot off in our ass.... Constantly.   Now, the young pups on the team have a mental block against Duke too.   Great.

What happens when an actual big game comes along (like one that means something in the conference or the tournament), and Ward and Jackson are in foul trouble.  A conference title, or advancement in the tournament is on the line, and you want Carter, Schilling, and Goins to draw on their experience from a 40 point blowout over NESFAMC?

If we have to play those three in a significant game for significant minutes, we’re probably not winning anyway. Play Ward a JJ till they foul out.

I never got the whole sit a guy in foul trouble anyway. If your team is losing ground without him, what’s it matter? Play him. Maybe he doesn’t foul out.

DWags wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
What happens when an actual big game comes along (like one that means something in the conference or the tournament), and Ward and Jackson are in foul trouble.  A conference title, or advancement in the tournament is on the line, and you want Carter, Schilling, and Goins to draw on their experience from a 40 point blowout over NESFAMC?

If we have to play those three in a significant game for significant minutes, we’re probably not winning anyway. Play Ward a JJ till they foul out.

I never got the whole sit a guy in foul trouble anyway. If your team is losing ground without him, what’s it matter? Play him. Maybe he doesn’t foul out.

If you play a guy like Ward until he fouls out, he's going to play less minutes because he'll get tired and foul more.

by the way, im not arrogant enough to think I’m right. I coached on JV game in my life cause my coaches wife was having a baby so I took a week as the coach. I got a technical and we lost. Luckily I was the AD so nobody bitched about my technical.

I’m just venting as to what frustrated me last night. Ward was my favorite last year. I think he makes more big plays in big games and fewer mistakes. He’s a grinder.

NigelUno wrote:

DWags wrote:

If we have to play those three in a significant game for significant minutes, we’re probably not winning anyway. Play Ward a JJ till they foul out.

I never got the whole sit a guy in foul trouble anyway. If your team is losing ground without him, what’s it matter? Play him. Maybe he doesn’t foul out.

If you play a guy like Ward until he fouls out, he's going to play less minutes because he'll get tired and foul more.

Get his ass in shape in November.

DWags wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
What happens when an actual big game comes along (like one that means something in the conference or the tournament), and Ward and Jackson are in foul trouble.  A conference title, or advancement in the tournament is on the line, and you want Carter, Schilling, and Goins to draw on their experience from a 40 point blowout over NESFAMC?

If we have to play those three in a significant game for significant minutes, we’re probably not winning anyway. Play Ward a JJ till they foul out.

I never got the whole sit a guy in foul trouble anyway. If your team is losing ground without him, what’s it matter? Play him. Maybe he doesn’t foul out.

This is actually one of my pet topics as well so that should make you feel dumb. The only way to maximize the minutes of your best players is to never sit them for foul trouble. The two foul first half penalty box really kills me. How often is the guy completely out of the flow of the game in the 2nd half and finishes with fouls to spare?
This is also along the lines of my theory that points count for the same amount at any point in the game.

Herbie Green wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Comp is already opining that Miles is not anywhere near as good at the 3 as he was as a mismatch 4 for us last year. We'll see, tough game to make that judgement based off of.

I think he is right. I was saying the same thing last spring.

Why is this man not coach? Hollis needs to go.

Herbie Green wrote:

DWags wrote:

If we have to play those three in a significant game for significant minutes, we’re probably not winning anyway. Play Ward a JJ till they foul out.

I never got the whole sit a guy in foul trouble anyway. If your team is losing ground without him, what’s it matter? Play him. Maybe he doesn’t foul out.

This is actually one of my pet topics as well so that should make you feel dumb. The only way to maximize the minutes of your best players is to never sit them for foul trouble. The two foul first half penalty box really kills me. How often is the guy completely out of the flow of the game in the 2nd half and finishes with fouls to spare?
This is also along the lines of my theory that points count for the same amount at any point in the game.

This is one of my pet peeves about college ball, they should up it to 6 fouls. I hate watching a game and seeing a player as good as Ward out of it for a the bulk of the first half because he has 2 fouls.