ChampionsClassic - The March continues.

So I guess Moose was right.  

And the truth should set him free.

Cherry picking which games count and don’t count? As Bob said, being the fan base we claim to despise.

Herbie Green wrote:So I guess Moose was right.  

And the truth should set him free.

Great analysis, who honestly cares anymore.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
And we've won one of the four that matters.  I don't think that's awful, and considering the circumstances is fairly decent.  

1999 - ok, we, including Izzo, were brand new to this Final Four thing.  Duke was experienced, both as a program and the players, and a damn good team.

2005 - We were a 5 seed and beat 1 seed Duke.  

2013 - We were what, 2 and 3 seeds and lost.  We were fairly equivalent going in.

2015 - We were a 7 seed and lost to 1 seeded Duke.  Player/talent difference.

Those 4 are all that matters.  Considering the circumstances of each we've done OK.

I've also found myself wondering who actually has a good record against Duke.

If I had to take a guess I'd say Roy Williams and UNC and maybe John Calipari and Kentucky. I'd be surprised if there was any other coach with an above 33% win percentage against Duke. There's probably some outlier like Leonard Hamilton at Florida State or something.

Let's look at just the Champions Class history:



MSU is the only one who hasn't beaten Duke. Funny that KU has beaten Duke twice, hasn't lost to them in fact, but is winless against MSU.

At any rate, everybody is 4-3 or 3-4.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Right, but that's because they're Duke. Literally no one has a good record against them.
I guess I don't see what you were getting at in your original post. It's like you were surprised the #1 team in the country looked like the #1 team in the country.

I don’t think they looked all that great, to be honest. They skullfucked us on the boards, hit some timely shots, but other than that it was all Allen and the guy who got poked in the eye. There were a lot of times where we would over help on a drive and give them open looks. Yeah Grayson hit some tough ones but he had a few where nobody was in the area - sure that drove Izzo nuts. The guy is killing us, someone get in his face.

Who plays zone in the big ten? Michigan? Wisconsin? That zone pretty much nullified Bridges’ driving ability. Couldn’t get Ward in many post up situations, just off a cut and pass.

We're going to see it from everyone this year. At least until we get proficient at beating it. Teams that normally don't run zone will have a 2-3 package specifically for us. Luckily we're not going to run into a team with Duke's athletes any time soon.

I'm surprised you were unimpressed with Duke. You're either being a basketball hipster or are seeing weaknesses that I wasn't seeing last night.

Herbie Green wrote:So I guess Moose was right.  

And the truth should set him free.

What the fuck are you talking about?

steveschneider wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Allen got hot and hit 7-11 3's.

A career high in points.  Dude can shoot.

It's got nothing to do with defense.  He hit shots with people on him.

He was the outlier.  If Langford, McQuaid, or Winston knocked down some 3's instead of going a collective 1/10 and Allen misses a few...it's a different game.

Sometimes the shots go in.  Sometimes they don't.

Grayson is damn good at college but there's something unimpressive about watching a guy that should have gone pro his sophomore year stick around in college (aka a developmental league) to dominate inferior talent.

Sincerely,
Miles Bridges

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:So I guess Moose was right.  

And the truth should set him free.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Get ready for Herbie to bash you for no reason and call everyone stupid, even though he can't argue worth shit.

Death Roe wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

What the fuck are you talking about?

Get ready for Herbie to bash you for no reason and call everyone stupid, even though he can't argue worth shit.

But what is he talking about? Does he mean Moose that guy who used to post here? I'm not following.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Death Roe wrote:

Get ready for Herbie to bash you for no reason and call everyone stupid, even though he can't argue worth shit.

But what is he talking about? Does he mean Moose that guy who used to post here? I'm not following.

Yes. For some reason Moose saying over and over and over again that K owns Izzo makes him "right"? And that he should be unbanned?

We'll wait for the oh-so-wise-one to expand his thoughts.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Death Roe wrote:

Get ready for Herbie to bash you for no reason and call everyone stupid, even though he can't argue worth shit.

But what is he talking about? Does he mean Moose that guy who used to post here? I'm not following.

Yes, Moose should come back now. Herbie can see things that no one else can see, that's why we should support him to be the next FB/BB coach.

I just unbanned moose

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Grayson is damn good at college but there's something unimpressive about watching a guy that should have gone pro his sophomore year stick around in college (aka a developmental league) to dominate inferior talent.

that's kind of a bizarre way to look at it..

"hi, yeah - Grayson? Yeah.. hi. Your talent level has surpassed the other children.. so we're going to have to ask you to leave. What? yes.. I know you're a senior.. yep.. yep - I know you still have one year of eligibility.. but you're good. And, as such, we need you to leave now. Thanks".

I mean I get it, it is his choice to stay but it's about as impressive as what Danny Almonte did.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I just unbanned moose

The most productive thing you've done as a Mod.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

I don’t think they looked all that great, to be honest. They skullfucked us on the boards, hit some timely shots, but other than that it was all Allen and the guy who got poked in the eye. There were a lot of times where we would over help on a drive and give them open looks. Yeah Grayson hit some tough ones but he had a few where nobody was in the area - sure that drove Izzo nuts. The guy is killing us, someone get in his face.

Who plays zone in the big ten? Michigan? Wisconsin? That zone pretty much nullified Bridges’ driving ability. Couldn’t get Ward in many post up situations, just off a cut and pass.

We're going to see it from everyone this year. At least until we get proficient at beating it. Teams that normally don't run zone will have a 2-3 package specifically for us. Luckily we're not going to run into a team with Duke's athletes any time soon.

I'm surprised you were unimpressed with Duke. You're either being a basketball hipster or are seeing weaknesses that I wasn't seeing last night.

Honestly, I’ve probably been watching too much NBA and gotten spoiled with the level of officiating and level of play. With that being said, this level of CBB is pretty much G/D league lite.

Just felt like that was one of the weaker duke teams we have seen, having no where near the leve of guard play we are used to seeing from them outside of Grayson. We made many more dumb mistakes than duke necessarily forced in my opinion. Shit, the few times MSU pushed the ball and got quick shots we usually came away with points. Skip the ball around as much as possible? Mcquaid or Winston usually a missing shot or turnover.

Death Roe wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

But what is he talking about? Does he mean Moose that guy who used to post here? I'm not following.

Yes. For some reason Moose saying over and over and over again that K owns Izzo makes him "right"? 

I am so glad no one is saying that any more.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Right, but that's because they're Duke. Literally no one has a good record against them.
I guess I don't see what you were getting at in your original post. It's like you were surprised the #1 team in the country looked like the #1 team in the country.

I don’t think they looked all that great, to be honest. They skullfucked us on the boards, hit some timely shots, but other than that it was all Allen and the guy who got poked in the eye. There were a lot of times where we would over help on a drive and give them open looks. Yeah Grayson hit some tough ones but he had a few where nobody was in the area - sure that drove Izzo nuts. The guy is killing us, someone get in his face.

Who plays zone in the big ten? Michigan? Wisconsin? That zone pretty much nullified Bridges’ driving ability. Couldn’t get Ward in many post up situations, just off a cut and pass.

Duval had a pretty good game...as did Carter Jr. Both had double doubles.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

We're going to see it from everyone this year. At least until we get proficient at beating it. Teams that normally don't run zone will have a 2-3 package specifically for us. Luckily we're not going to run into a team with Duke's athletes any time soon.

I'm surprised you were unimpressed with Duke. You're either being a basketball hipster or are seeing weaknesses that I wasn't seeing last night.

Honestly, I’ve probably been watching too much NBA and gotten spoiled with the level of officiating and level of play. With that being said, this level of CBB is pretty much G/D league lite.

Just felt like that was one of the weaker duke teams we have seen, having no where near the leve of guard play we are used to seeing from them outside of Grayson. We made many more dumb mistakes than duke necessarily forced in my opinion. Shit, the few times MSU pushed the ball and got quick shots we usually came away with points. Skip the ball around as much as possible? Mcquaid or Winston usually a missing shot or turnover.

Duval had 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals. That's pretty good guard play.

NigelUno wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Honestly, I’ve probably been watching too much NBA and gotten spoiled with the level of officiating and level of play. With that being said, this level of CBB is pretty much G/D league lite.

Just felt like that was one of the weaker duke teams we have seen, having no where near the leve of guard play we are used to seeing from them outside of Grayson. We made many more dumb mistakes than duke necessarily forced in my opinion. Shit, the few times MSU pushed the ball and got quick shots we usually came away with points. Skip the ball around as much as possible? Mcquaid or Winston usually a missing shot or turnover.

Duval had 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals. That's pretty good guard play.

That’s a nice stat line, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he was as good as dukes usual backcourt. 6 steals - yikes, turnovers in November, truly a Izzo staple.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

We're going to see it from everyone this year. At least until we get proficient at beating it. Teams that normally don't run zone will have a 2-3 package specifically for us. Luckily we're not going to run into a team with Duke's athletes any time soon.

I'm surprised you were unimpressed with Duke. You're either being a basketball hipster or are seeing weaknesses that I wasn't seeing last night.

Honestly, I’ve probably been watching too much NBA and gotten spoiled with the level of officiating and level of play. With that being said, this level of CBB is pretty much G/D league lite.

Just felt like that was one of the weaker duke teams we have seen, having no where near the leve of guard play we are used to seeing from them outside of Grayson. We made many more dumb mistakes than duke necessarily forced in my opinion. Shit, the few times MSU pushed the ball and got quick shots we usually came away with points. Skip the ball around as much as possible? Mcquaid or Winston usually a missing shot or turnover.

I definitely went through that too. I've watched so much NBA over the past 2-3 weeks that a high level college game was jarring by contrast. Especially the way the game is reffed. But by the standards of college ball in this college season I don't think we'll see a better team than the one we saw last night. I haven't watched Arizona play yet, though.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Duval had 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals.  That's pretty good guard play.  

That’s a nice stat line, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he was as good as dukes usual backcourt. 6 steals - yikes, turnovers in November, truly a Izzo staple.

Last year, Frank Jackson had 11 points and 3 assists when we played them.

Tyus Jones had 17 points and 4 assists against us in 2014/15 the first time we played them, and 9 points and 4 assists the second time we played them.

So, it seems like 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals is pretty good guard play.

Death Roe wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

But what is he talking about? Does he mean Moose that guy who used to post here? I'm not following.

Yes. For some reason Moose saying over and over and over again that K owns Izzo makes him "right"? And that he should be unbanned?

We'll wait for the oh-so-wise-one to expand his thoughts.

I guess my question is who doesn't Coach K own? It's not like Izzo has some fantastic record but just can't get over on Matt Painter or some shit.
We're talking about probably the college game's greatest coach ever. It would be like trying to rip a guy because his hot wife isn't as hot as Emilia Clarke or something.

NigelUno wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

That’s a nice stat line, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he was as good as dukes usual backcourt. 6 steals - yikes, turnovers in November, truly a Izzo staple.

Last year, Frank Jackson had 11 points and 3 assists when we played them.

Tyus Jones had 17 points and 4 assists against us in 2014/15 the first time we played them, and 9 points and 4 assists the second time we played them.

So, it seems like 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals is pretty good guard play.

If only stats told the entire story, Nigel. Also, Please be fair and include Kennard’s 20 at Cameron.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

NigelUno wrote:



Last year, Frank Jackson had 11 points and 3 assists when we played them.

Tyus Jones had 17 points and 4 assists against us in 2014/15 the first time we played them, and 9 points and 4 assists the second time we played them.

So, it seems like 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals is pretty good guard play.

If only stats told the entire story, Nigel. Also, Please be fair and include Kennard’s 20 at Cameron.

Never forget that Nairn dropped 7 on tOSU back on Valentine's Day of '14

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Death Roe wrote:

Yes. For some reason Moose saying over and over and over again that K owns Izzo makes him "right"? And that he should be unbanned?

We'll wait for the oh-so-wise-one to expand his thoughts.

I guess my question is who doesn't Coach K own? It's not like Izzo has some fantastic record but just can't get over on Matt Painter or some shit.
We're talking about probably the college game's greatest coach ever. It would be like trying to rip a guy because his hot wife isn't as hot as Emilia Clarke or something.

Kansas and Kentucky

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

NigelUno wrote:



Last year, Frank Jackson had 11 points and 3 assists when we played them.

Tyus Jones had 17 points and 4 assists against us in 2014/15 the first time we played them, and 9 points and 4 assists the second time we played them.

So, it seems like 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals is pretty good guard play.

If only stats told the entire story, Nigel. Also, Please be fair and include Kennard’s 20 at Cameron.

Dude. You're the one discounting Duval. You don't think he had a good game? 17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals. That's not a good game? For a Duke point guard? That's laughable.

And you want to count Kennard's 20 last year? OK. Not a problem.

Last year:
Allen, Kennard, and Jackson had 55 points

This year:
Allen, Duval, and Trent Jr. had 61 points

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

I guess my question is who doesn't Coach K own? It's not like Izzo has some fantastic record but just can't get over on Matt Painter or some shit.
We're talking about probably the college game's greatest coach ever. It would be like trying to rip a guy because his hot wife isn't as hot as Emilia Clarke or something.

Kansas and Kentucky

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

Herbie Green wrote:

Clarett's Folly wrote:

I guess my question is who doesn't Coach K own? It's not like Izzo has some fantastic record but just can't get over on Matt Painter or some shit.
We're talking about probably the college game's greatest coach ever. It would be like trying to rip a guy because his hot wife isn't as hot as Emilia Clarke or something.

Kansas and Kentucky

Since 1979 UK is 2-7 vs Duke.

Since they 1st met in 1985 KU is 2-7 vs Duke.

So you're right as usual.

Correction...looks like that was an old stat - KU may be 4-7 vs Duke....am trying to verify.

2>1

LooseGoose wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

If only stats told the entire story, Nigel. Also, Please be fair and include Kennard’s 20 at Cameron.

Never forget that Nairn dropped 7 on tOSU back on Valentine's Day of '14

dropped 7

Is Bridges going to shoot us out of games? If he hadn't made some of those deep threes that he chucked up with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, the game would've been over much earlier.

Tim Wakefield wrote:Is Bridges going to shoot us out of games? If he hadn't made some of those deep threes that he chucked up with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, the game would've been over much earlier.

I had that fear too. He was frustrated with not getting to the rim and started jacking threes.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

Kansas and Kentucky

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

Kentucky should be 3-4 if the refs did the right thing and ejected Laetner. One of the biggest bullshit non-calls in NCAA history.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Cherry picking which games count and don’t count? As Bob said, being the fan base we claim to despise.

It's not cherry picking when making a clear distinction between tournament games and November. Besides, I never said they don't count. I said they don't matter. In other words, you don't need to win them in order to hang a banner.

Comp is already opining that Miles is not anywhere near as good at the 3 as he was as a mismatch 4 for us last year. We'll see, tough game to make that judgement based off of.

Tim Wakefield wrote:Is Bridges going to shoot us out of games? If he hadn't made some of those deep threes that he chucked up with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, the game would've been over much earlier.

I kinda wished he had rotated down to run the base line (against the zone) a little bit.

Clarett's Folly wrote:

Herbie Green wrote:

Kansas and Kentucky

Kansas is 2-6 against Coach K, Kentucky is 2-5.

And Self and Calipari KU and UK teams have never faced him in a meaningful game. We've played Duke three times in the tournament since either of those schools have. UNC has never played Duke in the NCAA tournament (though obviously they have had plenty of conference and conference tournament games that are meaningful).

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Comp is already opining that Miles is not anywhere near as good at the 3 as he was as a mismatch 4 for us last year. We'll see, tough game to make that judgement based off of.

Ward had 19. Jackson had 19. Bridges had 19 (and hit 5 3's).

It was hard for him to get to the basket against a big Duke team. He won't have that issue against other teams though.