The 2020 Presidential campaign.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

The Sanders supporters who dislike Warren have a few reasons. The "Bernie said a woman can't be President" kerfuffle was a big one. The fact that she stayed in the race as moderates who outperformed her dropped out is another. The fact that she declined to endorse Bernie after she finally dropped out is another.

All correct. Still you'd think at this point they'd be okay with her as vp? Her platform is progressive and she'd be in a good position for 2024 to be president. Seems like a good opportunity to move the agenda forward if you ask me.

Of all the realistic names I've seen floated for VP, Warren would be my first choice, but I can see why many Bernie supporters view her as a snake.

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

All correct. Still you'd think at this point they'd be okay with her as vp? Her platform is progressive and she'd be in a good position for 2024 to be president. Seems like a good opportunity to move the agenda forward if you ask me.

Of all the realistic names I've seen floated for VP, Warren would be my first choice, but I can see why many Bernie supporters view her as a snake.

I guess one call out for the Bernie Sanders movement is they were too rigid and couldn't bend at all or form coalitions. This would be a good test for them because honestly of all the available options I can't see a better available choice for progressives than Warren as VP. At the end of the day in politics it's not about holding grudges or settling a score it's about getting your agenda to move forward.

I don’t think Klobuchar would be the pick. She’s fine but she’s redundant as far as what she brings. I mean, I could see Whitmer as a bid for Michigan, but what’s Amy bring? MN? Not a huge target. If there is no naked bid for a particular state, this pick has to consider who would be a reasonable bid to win the next election. It’s pretty likely that Joe doesn’t run for a second term. But you also have to win THIS election. So while Biden’s team might think Klobuchar would be the best candidate to carry on the Joe legacy, her being the running mate would not bring support in THIS election. Harris and Abrams might win you this election, but could they carry a general on their own? I mean maybe, but a midwestern down home white progressive might be a better bet. It’s rightly a complicated decision that needs a lot of thought. But I don’t see what Klobuchar gets you now.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I've seen insiders certain it will be Klobuchar and others certain it will be Warren. I've also seen others strongly suggest that it shouldn't be anyone that already lost in the primary. I think Warren would be a good choice to unify the party and hopefully win over the Sanders supporters. I guess a lot of the Sanders people can't stand Warren though which I just don't get.

you mean Bernie supporters whine about everything unless they get what they want?

I never noticed.

You two are idiots.

Rocinante wrote:I don’t think Klobuchar would be the pick. She’s fine but she’s redundant as far as what she brings. I mean, I could see Whitmer as a bid for Michigan, but what’s Amy bring? MN? Not a huge target. If there is no naked bid for a particular state, this pick has to consider who would be a reasonable bid to win the next election. It’s pretty likely that Joe doesn’t run for a second term. But you also have to win THIS election. So while Biden’s team might think Klobuchar would be the best candidate to carry on the Joe legacy, her being the running mate would not bring support in THIS election. Harris and Abrams might win you this election, but could they carry a general on their own? I mean maybe, but a midwestern down home white progressive might be a better bet. It’s rightly a complicated decision that needs a lot of thought. But I don’t see what Klobuchar gets you now.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Klobuchar idea and I think you have a pretty darn good take there Rocinate.

Rocinante wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote: you mean Bernie supporters whine about everything unless they get what they want?

I never noticed.

You two are idiots.

Our two posts just crossed paths. I gave your take a thumbs up and got slammed. All good.

steveschneider wrote:

Rocinante wrote:

You two are idiots.

Our two posts just crossed paths. I gave your take a thumbs up and got slammed. All good.

Thanks Steve. But twitter really isn’t real life. You’re by far not the only person to treat it as such though.

Rocinante wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Our two posts just crossed paths. I gave your take a thumbs up and got slammed. All good.

Thanks Steve. But twitter really isn’t real life. You’re by far not the only person to treat it as such though.

You guys always assume I'm pulling my info from twitter and that's just not the case. It's become a lazy crutch for some of you guys to attack me. Do I have to point out again that I read a lot of news papers?

Yes please point it out again.

Fucking steve...

Rocinante wrote:Yes please point it out again.

Ask and you shall receive...I read a lot of news papers and when you accuse me of getting me all of my info off twitter that's a fallacy on your part so there. I know whenever you see something you don't like you assume it's from twitter but not everyone is on twitter 24/7. I could quit twitter and you'd just have to find a new website to demonize. Today it's twitter, tomorrow it will be the NYT.

Cameron wrote: Fucking steve...

Oh look it's Cameron the cop piling on.

Steve, I was referring to the constant talk of angry Bernie bros. They are a small, vocal, douchebag contingent, who because people think they are representative of all progressives, give the movement a bad name.

Rocinante wrote:Steve, I was referring to the constant talk of angry Bernie bros. They are a small, vocal, douchebag contingent, who because people think they are representative of all progressives, give the movement a bad name.

I don't disagree with that I'd add though some of his own campaign staffers and surrogates contribute to a lot of it. Looks like he had a pretty divided staff with some major internal disagreements. Some of them were just flat out bomb throwers that contributed to it. Also, I want to note I'm over looking back on this stuff...I was really interested in discussing the VP pick and what's the best strategy. In my view this stuff should all be a closed book at this point and we should all be looking forward.

Agreed.

Still not too late to get somebody better...

Cameron wrote:
Still not too late to get somebody better...

And I get made fun of for twitter? Stay off fucking YT Cameron.

Never.

Cameron wrote:Never.

'Joe Biden is your enemy' it's like okay settle down there Jimmy.

Here's the NYT link for steve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/politics/biden-speech-fred-upton.html

Cameron wrote:Here's the NYT link for steve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/politics/biden-speech-fred-upton.html

Thanks, I didn't see 'Joe Biden is your enemy' in that article.

Move past the clickbait headline, steve, you jackass.

Cameron wrote:Move past the clickbait headline, steve, you jackass.

I read the article and watched your video. In your video link Jimmy declared Joe Biden was my enemy at the start and end of the video. I read your article and they didn't declare Joe the enemy.

You are absolutely worthless.

Cameron wrote:You are absolutely worthless.

What you posted is exactly the type of toxic crap that comes out of the Sanders base. Joe Biden is the enemy? I mean we all get it, there's a very vocal chunk of his base and his campaign staff that really really hates Joe Biden. I've been saying it for months, it's probably just best that they declare their selves as supporting the green party or Trump. I firmly believe at this point this type of stuff is just beating a dead horse, it's time to look forward and I've accepted that people like Jimmy will never be happy supporting the dem nominee which is okay but I just ask he be honest about it.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:You are absolutely worthless.

What you posted is exactly the type of toxic crap that comes out of the Sanders base. Joe Biden is the enemy? I mean we all get it, there's a very vocal chunk of his base and his campaign staff that really really hates Joe Biden. I've been saying it for months, it's probably just best that they declare their selves as supporting the green party or Trump. I firmly believe at this point this type of stuff is just beating a dead horse, it's time to look forward and I've accepted that people like Jimmy will never be happy supporting the dem nominee which is okay but I just ask he be honest about it.

Still literally no comment from you about the substance of the article, you braindead fucktard. "Oh, you don't love Joe Biden like a father? Go vote for Trump, then." At least Bob has the excuse of literally never giving a single shit or putting in any effort at all. In your case, it seems like this is literally the best you can do, and that is fucking sad.

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

What you posted is exactly the type of toxic crap that comes out of the Sanders base. Joe Biden is the enemy? I mean we all get it, there's a very vocal chunk of his base and his campaign staff that really really hates Joe Biden. I've been saying it for months, it's probably just best that they declare their selves as supporting the green party or Trump. I firmly believe at this point this type of stuff is just beating a dead horse, it's time to look forward and I've accepted that people like Jimmy will never be happy supporting the dem nominee which is okay but I just ask he be honest about it.

Still literally no comment from you about the substance of the article, you braindead fucktard. "Oh, you don't love Joe Biden like a father? Go vote for Trump, then." At least Bob has the excuse of literally never giving a single shit or putting in any effort at all. In your case, it seems like this is literally the best you can do, and that is fucking sad.

I mean yeah, I can see the criticism towards Joe but I guess I'd like to know about his reasoning. Upton has worked towards finding a cure to cancer, and maybe Joe is making it a bipartisan issue which it should be. Maybe it was just a gesture to show we can heal our nations divide? Or maybe he just took the check and supported Upton who I think is actually a reasonable republican?

But outside of that, after seeing corrupt Barr pardon Flynn (sad day for the rule of law), seeing a 78k Americans die as our response to Covid 19 lags behind the world, seeing an African American get lynched by two bigots and watching the most corrupt and dishonest president of our lifetime give his support to hate groups I still think the most progressive thing I can do in 2020 is vote for Joe Biden. So no I don't agree with Jimmy that Joe Biden is my enemy.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

Still literally no comment from you about the substance of the article, you braindead fucktard. "Oh, you don't love Joe Biden like a father? Go vote for Trump, then." At least Bob has the excuse of literally never giving a single shit or putting in any effort at all. In your case, it seems like this is literally the best you can do, and that is fucking sad.

I mean yeah, I can see the criticism towards Joe but I guess I'd like to know about his reasoning. Upton has worked towards finding a cure to cancer, and maybe Joe is making it a bipartisan issue which it should be. Maybe it was just a gesture to show we can heal our nations divide? Or maybe he just took the check and supported Upton who I think is actually a reasonable republican?

But outside of that, after seeing corrupt Barr pardon Flynn (sad day for the rule of law), seeing a 78k Americans die as our response to Covid 19 lags behind the world, seeing an African American get lynched by two bigots and watching the most corrupt and dishonest president of our lifetime give his support to hate groups I still think the most progressive thing I can do in 2020 is vote for Joe Biden. So no I don't agree with Jimmy that Joe Biden is my enemy.

What is being presented is not a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Biden is not yet the nominee, there is still time to get someone better in there.

You often muse about why progressives can't or won't happily support Biden. I mean, he's lowering the medicare age to 60, right? Maybe it has something to do with him effectively endorsing a Republican in a swing state. In 2018. For a mere $200k.

But how can anyone doubt that he would be the most progressive president in history?

You're spare parts, bud.

I only read the article Cam, did not watch the video. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Not a Biden honk here, just a regular dude who thinks 45 is a colossal piece of shit. After wading through the rhetoric, this is what it boiled down to, to me:

Several people involved in planning the event said Mr. Upton, 65, had no role in arranging Mr. Biden’s appearance, and Mr. Upton said he was not involved. There is no evidence Mr. Biden was motivated to praise the lawmaker by anything other than sincere admiration, stemming from Mr. Upton’s role in crafting the 21st Century Cures Act after the death of Mr. Biden’s elder son, Beau, from cancer in 2015.

Bill Russo, a spokesman for Mr. Biden, said the research-funding legislation was the foundation of Mr. Biden’s relationship with Mr. Upton.

“It was one of the few bipartisan bills passed in an otherwise deeply divided and gridlocked Congress,” Mr. Russo said. “Vice President Biden believes to his core that you can disagree politically on a lot and still work together in good faith on issues of common cause — like funding cancer research.”

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I mean yeah, I can see the criticism towards Joe but I guess I'd like to know about his reasoning. Upton has worked towards finding a cure to cancer, and maybe Joe is making it a bipartisan issue which it should be. Maybe it was just a gesture to show we can heal our nations divide? Or maybe he just took the check and supported Upton who I think is actually a reasonable republican?

But outside of that, after seeing corrupt Barr pardon Flynn (sad day for the rule of law), seeing a 78k Americans die as our response to Covid 19 lags behind the world, seeing an African American get lynched by two bigots and watching the most corrupt and dishonest president of our lifetime give his support to hate groups I still think the most progressive thing I can do in 2020 is vote for Joe Biden. So no I don't agree with Jimmy that Joe Biden is my enemy.

What is being presented is not a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Biden is not yet the nominee, there is still time to get someone better in there.

You often muse about why progressives can't or won't happily support Biden. I mean, he's lowering the medicare age to 60, right? Maybe it has something to do with him effectively endorsing a Republican in a swing state. In 2018. For a mere $200k.

But how can anyone doubt that he would be the most progressive president in history?

You're spare parts, bud.

This is another reason why people have issues with the toxicity of the Biden campaign. It's the fourth quarter, Biden is up by 5 touchdowns and in the victory formation and you guys are still blitzing the quarterback and stopping the clock with time outs. It's over man, time to heal and unite.

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

What is being presented is not a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Biden is not yet the nominee, there is still time to get someone better in there.

You often muse about why progressives can't or won't happily support Biden. I mean, he's lowering the medicare age to 60, right? Maybe it has something to do with him effectively endorsing a Republican in a swing state. In 2018. For a mere $200k.

But how can anyone doubt that he would be the most progressive president in history?

You're spare parts, bud.

This is another reason why people have issues with the toxicity of the Biden campaign. It's the fourth quarter, Biden is up by 5 touchdowns and in the victory formation and you guys are still blitzing the quarterback and stopping the clock with time outs. It's over man, time to heal and unite.

First of all, I assume you meant "Sanders campaign." Second, I am not part of the Sanders campaign, and Sanders is not my first choice. Third, in the unlikely event that Biden is in fact replaced, I am not operating under the assumption that it would be Bernie (or any other candidate I actually like), it would probably be a Buttigieg or Klobuchar type. I still think Biden should be replaced.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I only read the article Cam, did not watch the video. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Not a Biden honk here, just a regular dude who thinks 45 is a colossal piece of shit. After wading through the rhetoric, this is what it boiled down to, to me:

Several people involved in planning the event said Mr. Upton, 65, had no role in arranging Mr. Biden’s appearance, and Mr. Upton said he was not involved. There is no evidence Mr. Biden was motivated to praise the lawmaker by anything other than sincere admiration, stemming from Mr. Upton’s role in crafting the 21st Century Cures Act after the death of Mr. Biden’s elder son, Beau, from cancer in 2015.

Bill Russo, a spokesman for Mr. Biden, said the research-funding legislation was the foundation of Mr. Biden’s relationship with Mr. Upton.

“It was one of the few bipartisan bills passed in an otherwise deeply divided and gridlocked Congress,” Mr. Russo said. “Vice President Biden believes to his core that you can disagree politically on a lot and still work together in good faith on issues of common cause — like funding cancer research.”

I appreciate an actual response. Don't get me wrong, if it comes down to Biden v. Trump, I'll vote Biden. And that's probably inevitable, at this point.

But it definitely doesn't sit well with me that Biden collected $200k for a speaking fee and ended up effectively endorsing a Republican in what ended up being a pretty close race. Whether it was orchestrated or not, there is at very least the appearance that he helped a Republican get elected, and I'm not a fan of that.

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:


This is another reason why people have issues with the toxicity of the Biden campaign. It's the fourth quarter, Biden is up by 5 touchdowns and in the victory formation and you guys are still blitzing the quarterback and stopping the clock with time outs. It's over man, time to heal and unite.

First of all, I assume you meant "Sanders campaign." Second, I am not part of the Sanders campaign, and Sanders is not my first choice. Third, in the unlikely event that Biden is in fact replaced, I am not operating under the assumption that it would be Bernie (or any other candidate I actually like), it would probably be a Buttigieg or Klobuchar type. I still think Biden should be replaced.

You can't just up and switch him at this point. African Americans overwhelmingly turned it out for Biden, what kind of message would it send if we ultimately told them their vote didn't matter?

steveschneider wrote:

Cameron wrote:

First of all, I assume you meant "Sanders campaign." Second, I am not part of the Sanders campaign, and Sanders is not my first choice. Third, in the unlikely event that Biden is in fact replaced, I am not operating under the assumption that it would be Bernie (or any other candidate I actually like), it would probably be a Buttigieg or Klobuchar type. I still think Biden should be replaced.

You can't just up and switch him at this point. African Americans overwhelmingly turned it out for Biden, what kind of message would it send if we ultimately told them their vote didn't matter?

Are you really playing the race card? For Joe Biden?

He could do the right/smart thing and withdraw. Failing that, I agree that it is unlikely that he will be replaced, but mechanisms do exist for replacing him.

Cameron wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I only read the article Cam, did not watch the video. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Not a Biden honk here, just a regular dude who thinks 45 is a colossal piece of shit. After wading through the rhetoric, this is what it boiled down to, to me:

I appreciate an actual response. Don't get me wrong, if it comes down to Biden v. Trump, I'll vote Biden. And that's probably inevitable, at this point.

But it definitely doesn't sit well with me that Biden collected $200k for a speaking fee and ended up effectively endorsing a Republican in what ended up being a pretty close race. Whether it was orchestrated or not, there is at very least the appearance that he helped a Republican get elected, and I'm not a fan of that.

Agree it's not a great look, but I also wouldn't call it an 'effective endorsement' based on what I read. He praised him for cancer research and bi-partisan legislation in that vein. Admittedly I know nothing of Upton. But seems praiseworthy and certainly personal to him (Uncle Joe). Personally I'm more likely to be concerned about the other allegations than something like this. I don't think I believe the other allegations but these are often not standalone type of things. If other allegations come out, that are not obvious plants by the other team, that will be very concerning.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Cameron wrote:

I appreciate an actual response. Don't get me wrong, if it comes down to Biden v. Trump, I'll vote Biden. And that's probably inevitable, at this point.

But it definitely doesn't sit well with me that Biden collected $200k for a speaking fee and ended up effectively endorsing a Republican in what ended up being a pretty close race. Whether it was orchestrated or not, there is at very least the appearance that he helped a Republican get elected, and I'm not a fan of that.

Agree it's not a great look, but I also wouldn't call it an 'effective endorsement' based on what I read. He praised him for cancer research and bi-partisan legislation in that vein. Admittedly I know nothing of Upton. But seems praiseworthy and certainly personal to him (Uncle Joe). Personally I'm more likely to be concerned about the other allegations than something like this. I don't think I believe the other allegations but these are often not standalone type of things. If other allegations come out, that are not obvious plants by the other team, that will be very concerning.

I don't want to get too deep in the weeds over whether or not it was an endorsement, but my understanding is that Upton's campaign used the nice things Biden said about him to at least imply some level of endorsement. But it might not be fair to Biden to blame him for that, I suppose.

More to your point, if this were the only blemish on Biden's record, it would be much easier to brush aside for me. But there's so much in his record that makes people like me cringe.

Democrats don't need to give themselves a degree of difficulty. "How close of a candidate to Trump can we run? Septuagenarian white male? Check. Multiple accusations of sexual harrassment/impropriety? Check. Lets his kid use daddy's name to make big bucks in foreign countries? Check." Other than Bloomberg, I'm not sure they could find a more flawed candidate if they tried.

Cameron wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

You can't just up and switch him at this point. African Americans overwhelmingly turned it out for Biden, what kind of message would it send if we ultimately told them their vote didn't matter?

Are you really playing the race card? For Joe Biden?

He could do the right/smart thing and withdraw. Failing that, I agree that it is unlikely that he will be replaced, but mechanisms do exist for replacing him.

First off he isn't going to get replaced, but just for sake of argument African Americans are the backbone of the party, and the candidate they've gotten behind has won the primary since 1988. Pretty much before Iowa and up to S. Carolina he's dominated the support of the African American base. I think it would be political suicide for the party to just up and replace him with some other candidate to make the progressive wing happy. Just my opinion.

Earlier today I saw a blurb that Reade says Biden should step aside. There's also this.

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