Re: Oppenheimer - New Christopher Nolan Movie/Should the U.S. have used the atomic bomb?

by **Trapper Gus** 2022-12-28, 12:43

Turtleneck wrote:Just saw this. Published in 2022, and might be of interest to you OTPT.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/black-snow-curtis-lemay-firebombing-tokyo-and-road-atomic-bomb

Yes, and this equivalent bombing to an atomic bomb didn't sway the government of Japan to surrender.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-28, 12:48

Turtleneck wrote:Just saw this. Published in 2022, and might be of interest to you OTPT.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/black-snow-curtis-lemay-firebombing-tokyo-and-road-atomic-bomb

Thanks, I’ll check it out now. I’m still awaiting your thoughts, bro.

by **Rocinante** 2022-12-28, 12:59

One of my favorite movies is interstellar minus the “love has measurable meaning in the universe”thing. Nolan has become a more sophisticated M Night Shamalan since then. Movies just keep getting more up their own asses. I will watch this because I’m a sucker but this is his last chance. Also, hell no we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb. A negotiated surrender was highly probable. We WANTED.to drop it. We wanted to see what would happen. We started the Cold War. You can’t say “the war would’ve gone on forever” or “somebody else would’ve used the bomb.” You can’t know that and there was no evidence that either of those things were likely.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2022-12-28, 14:03

Rocinante wrote:One of my favorite movies is interstellar minus the “love has measurable meaning in the universe”thing. Nolan has become a more sophisticated M Night Shamalan since then. Movies just keep getting more up their own asses. I will watch this because I’m a sucker but this is his last chance. Also, hell no we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb. A negotiated surrender was highly probable. We WANTED.to drop it. We wanted to see what would happen. We started the Cold War. You can’t say “the war would’ve gone on forever” or “somebody else would’ve used the bomb.” You can’t know that and there was no evidence that either of those things were likely.

There's also no evidence that a surrender was likely, at least not without hundreds of thousands more deaths. You can't dismiss one "what if" as pure speculation, while using your own equally speculative "what if" to support your argument. I mean you CAN, it just comes off as disingenuous.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-28, 14:18

Rocinante wrote:One of my favorite movies is interstellar minus the “love has measurable meaning in the universe”thing. Nolan has become a more sophisticated M Night Shamalan since then. Movies just keep getting more up their own asses. I will watch this because I’m a sucker but this is his last chance. Also, hell no we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb. A negotiated surrender was highly probable. We WANTED.to drop it. We wanted to see what would happen. We started the Cold War. You can’t say “the war would’ve gone on forever” or “somebody else would’ve used the bomb.” You can’t know that and there was no evidence that either of those things were likely.

He’s made two movies since interstellar… Dunkirk and tenet? You don’t have to like tenet as that type of movie/thinking doesn’t seem like your style but how was dunkirk up his own ass?

by **Rocinante** 2022-12-28, 15:46

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Rocinante wrote:One of my favorite movies is interstellar minus the “love has measurable meaning in the universe”thing. Nolan has become a more sophisticated M Night Shamalan since then. Movies just keep getting more up their own asses. I will watch this because I’m a sucker but this is his last chance. Also, hell no we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb. A negotiated surrender was highly probable. We WANTED.to drop it. We wanted to see what would happen. We started the Cold War. You can’t say “the war would’ve gone on forever” or “somebody else would’ve used the bomb.” You can’t know that and there was no evidence that either of those things were likely.
There's also no evidence that a surrender was likely, at least not without hundreds of thousands more deaths. You can't dismiss one "what if" as pure speculation, while using your own equally speculative "what if" to support your argument. I mean you CAN, it just comes off as disingenuous.

Dwight Eisenhower, Herbert Hoover, and Douglas MacArthur disagree with you. Japan was on its knees. It was offering no resistance to indiscriminate conventional bombing. The only thing preventing an u conditional surrender was the Japanese fear that surrender would mean an end to the imperial system. There were plans in the works to offer a surrender with the only condition being the imperial system stays. It would have been a complete paper government with the US in charge. It was an experiment inflicted on a population considered less human than Americans. It was a war crime.

by **Rocinante** 2022-12-28, 15:58

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Rocinante wrote:One of my favorite movies is interstellar minus the “love has measurable meaning in the universe”thing. Nolan has become a more sophisticated M Night Shamalan since then. Movies just keep getting more up their own asses. I will watch this because I’m a sucker but this is his last chance. Also, hell no we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb. A negotiated surrender was highly probable. We WANTED.to drop it. We wanted to see what would happen. We started the Cold War. You can’t say “the war would’ve gone on forever” or “somebody else would’ve used the bomb.” You can’t know that and there was no evidence that either of those things were likely.

He’s made two movies since interstellar… Dunkirk and tenet? You don’t have to like tenet as that type of movie/thinking doesn’t seem like your style but how was dunkirk up his own ass?

Fair enough. I didn’t. Know his timeline. I actually liked the Prestige too. Mainly starting with Inception and then hitting 9000 with Tenet. That movie made me irrationally mad. I legit hated it. Dunkirk I actually fell asleep during so I don’t know. I’ll walk it back. I’ll give it a chance but man tenet spent a lot of political capital with me. It was unfair to call him m night shamalan, though. That’s a low blow even for me.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2022-12-28, 17:13

Rocinante wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:
There's also no evidence that a surrender was likely, at least not without hundreds of thousands more deaths. You can't dismiss one "what if" as pure speculation, while using your own equally speculative "what if" to support your argument. I mean you CAN, it just comes off as disingenuous.

Dwight Eisenhower, Herbert Hoover, and Douglas MacArthur disagree with you. Japan was on its knees. It was offering no resistance to indiscriminate conventional bombing. The only thing preventing an u conditional surrender was the Japanese fear that surrender would mean an end to the imperial system. There were plans in the works to offer a surrender with the only condition being the imperial system stays. It would have been a complete paper government with the US in charge. It was an experiment inflicted on a population considered less human than Americans. It was a war crime.

And a lot of historians that have had access to more information than any of them, disagree with them. And others disagree with those historians. That's why it's still a historical debate. And as discussed here before, no one is going to change anyone's mind.

by **Rocinante** 2022-12-28, 17:47

In the end, the Japanese surrender included perpetuation of the emperor. I don’t expect to change your mind, or anyone’s. But the longer I live the more I see it as not just a mistake, that gives too much latitude, but as an act of evil.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2022-12-28, 19:34

Rocinante wrote:In the end, the Japanese surrender included perpetuation of the emperor. I don’t expect to change your mind, or anyone’s. But the longer I live the more I see it as not just a mistake, that gives too much latitude, but as an act of evil.

That's fair, and I respect that. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the moral/evil idea went out the window long before when we started setting thousands and thousands of civilians on fire on a regular basis in Germany and Japan.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2022-12-28, 19:41

I’ve got a lot to learn. Any ww2 docs i should watch?

by **MiamiSpartan** 2022-12-28, 22:57

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:I’ve got a lot to learn. Any ww2 docs i should watch?

Can't go wrong with Ken Burns. He did a doc series called The War.

I like World War II in Color. Largely because color footage is so much more impactful to me.

Maybe the best ever, though it's over 30 hours, is a British doc called The World at War. Narrated by Laurence Olivier.

World War II Behind Closed Doors spends more time on the high level happenings, politics, etc., surrounding the war.

Not sure where or if all of these are available streaming. But those are the ones that come to mind that have stood out to me.

by **Turtleneck** 2022-12-29, 00:01

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:Just saw this. Published in 2022, and might be of interest to you OTPT.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/black-snow-curtis-lemay-firebombing-tokyo-and-road-atomic-bomb

Thanks, I’ll check it out now. I’m still awaiting your thoughts, bro.

Speaking of a Nolan movie, Schilling told me not to tell you that I can tell you at the Final Four at halftime of MSU v. Kansas.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-02-11, 08:59

While skipping around the internets this popped up, a story about how there was a revolt in the Japanese Military by officers who absolutely didn't want Japan to surrender even after two nuclear bombs (all we had) were dropped.

by **Motown Spartan** 2023-06-21, 11:44

Bump. Starting to get closer! I can't wait for this to come out.

by **kingstonlake** 2023-06-21, 11:56

I love a historically accurate movie covering a significant event or Era. It doesn't have to be exciting to me. I can enjoy the recounting. This has a feel (via previews) of Hollywood injected drama and grandiose.

by **Wally Fairway** 2023-06-21, 15:18

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:I’ve got a lot to learn. Any ww2 docs i should watch?

not to watch, but to read (or listen, I am an audiobook guy)

The Bomber Mafia - Malcollm Gladwell, more than just the history of bombing Japan, a very well written history of how bombing evolved during WWII
Another WWII favorite -
Halseys Typhoon - Tom Clavin, and there are a couple of videos/movies about this. Deals with one of Halseys battlegroups getting caught in a typhoon. Again very insightful about the conquest across the Pacific islands. Halseys Typoons: Peril on the Sea/Wrath of the God (you can find it on youtube.com)

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 09:03

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/21/oppenheimer-how-nuclear-bombs-work

Oppenheimer - New Christopher Nolan Movie/Should the U.S. have used the atomic bomb? - Page 2 Scree172

by **Floyd Robertson** 2023-07-21, 09:13

Huh, today is the day I learned that Fat Man and Little Boy used different types of triggers.

by **DWags** 2023-07-21, 09:26

I also just learned that governor Granholm just rescinded the orders that Oppenheimer be stripped of his national security top secret clearance status. She was able to do it as energy secretary.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 09:53

When the bomb goes off in the theater I am going to stand up and boo to make sure everyone knows that I am against nuclear warfare.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 10:07

Floyd Robertson wrote:Huh, today is the day I learned that Fat Man and Little Boy used different types of triggers.

The first hydrogen bomb, misnamed actually because lithium is the actual element used, exploded at Bikini, was 7 times more powerful than they expected, due to the conversion of what they thought was an innert form of lithium into one that would, and did, fuse.

Unlike the fission bomb, a fusion bomb can be made as powerful as the designers want. The largest ever detonated, by the USSR caused a shock wave in the earth's crust which went around the earth 5 times before it damped out.

Just adding to the nuclear bomb knowledge base here, courtesy of the thread which caused Trevor B. to create Wells Hall.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 10:13

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:When the bomb goes off in the theater I am going to stand up and boo to make sure everyone knows that I am against nuclear warfare.

It is unlikely that Japan would have surrendered with such a low loss of life if those bombs hadn't been dropped.

However, nuclear warfare on a large scale is unwinnable.

by **DWags** 2023-07-21, 10:21

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:When the bomb goes off in the theater I am going to stand up and boo to make sure everyone knows that I am against nuclear warfare.

Why do you hate progress Travis?

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 10:28

Trapper Gus wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:When the bomb goes off in the theater I am going to stand up and boo to make sure everyone knows that I am against nuclear warfare.

It is unlikely that Japan would have surrendered with such a low loss of life if those bombs hadn't been dropped.

However, nuclear warfare on a large scale is unwinnable.

Yeah that is what the people that murdered hundreds of thousands told you, isn’t it? I bet they believed it too.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 10:45

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

It is unlikely that Japan would have surrendered with such a low loss of life if those bombs hadn't been dropped.

However, nuclear warfare on a large scale is unwinnable.
Yeah that is what the people that murdered hundreds of thousands told you, isn’t it? I bet they believed it too.

Earlier in this thread there is a post with a link detailing the attempted coup the Japanese military executed and almost succeeded with trying to keep the Japanese Emperor from surrendering. The will of the Japanese military to keep fighting was there, even with the fire-bombing of Japanese cities, which was more destructive than the nuclear bombs. Continuing the war would have casued far more deaths than the nuclear bombs did, and FWIW those were the only two bombs the US had when they were dropped, so, though Japan didn't know it, they were not really facing a continuous nuclear bombing for at least some months.

Bombing of Tokyo, (March 9–10, 1945), firebombing raid (codenamed “Operation Meetinghouse”) by the United States on the capital of Japan during the final stages of World War II, often cited as one of the most destructive acts of war in history, more destructive than the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki. Although the precise death toll is unknown, conservative estimates suggest that the firestorm caused by incendiary bombs killed at least 80,000 people, and likely more than 100,000, in a single night; some one million people were left homeless. The Japanese later called this the “Night of the Black Snow.”

It is argued that the shock of having similar death rates with only one bomb is what caused Japan (the Emperor & the surrender side of Japanese society) to decide to quit, but it was not a sure thing, as the apologists for the bombs like to make it, since the military did revolt against it. It is unlikely Japan would have surrendered at that time if those bombs had not been dropped.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 10:53

Neat. I don’t think that murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians is okay, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 11:04

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Neat. I don’t think that murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians is okay, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise.

Modern warfare is very destructive of property and life. It totally sucks and no one should start a war by choice.

The US Army's planning for the invasion of Japan was projecting deaths which were way higher than those killed by the nuclear bombing.

As horrible as it was it appears to have been the option which caused the fewest deaths.

A study conducted by William Shockley for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff estimated that a full-scale invasion of Japan could have cost the United States anywhere from 1.7 to 4 million casualties, including up to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan. The invasion of Japan would have involved some 766,000 Allied personnel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 11:17

A study by the murders suggests they had no choice but to murder it was truly the only option.

Look man, you can believe the 70 years of propaganda that’s been fed to you. I get it, it’s enticing and easier on the brain than thinking about the hard truths. I used to believe them too. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. But, it’s probably best to accept that you’re not going to convince me that there exists a scenario where the wholesale slaughter of entire cities is okay either. There isn’t. It was wrong then, it’d be wrong today, and a lot of effort has gone into justifying those choices over the years so that we don’t have to reckon with our own moral failings, instead solely pointing those fingers outward.

by Rick Saunders 2023-07-21, 11:28

Trapper Gus wrote:
The largest ever detonated, by the USSR caused a shock wave in the earth's crust which went around the earth 5 times before it damped out.

Just adding to the nuclear bomb knowledge base here

Oppenheimer - New Christopher Nolan Movie/Should the U.S. have used the atomic bomb? - Page 2 Nuclear%20Comparison-768x474

https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/history/tsar-bomba/
On October 30, 1961, Tsar Bomba was detonated in the atmosphere at 11:32 Moscow Time over the Mityushikha Bay Nuclear Testing Range in the northern Arctic Circle. The bomb was set by barometric sensors to detonate at 13,000 feet and was dropped from a height of 34,000 feet.

The Tsar Bomba yield was approximately 1,570 times more powerful than the yield of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, and 10 times more powerful than all of the conventional weapons exploded during World War II. Tsar Bomba also represented 25% of the estimated yield of the Krakatoa volcanic eruption of 1883, and 10% of all nuclear tests by this point. By comparison, the B41, the largest United States nuclear weapon, had a theoretical yield of 25 megatons. The largest nuclear device ever detonated by the United States was Castle Bravo with a yield of 15 megatons. The largest nuclear weapon deployed by the Soviet Union, the SS-18 Mod. 3 ICBM warhead, was also approximately 25 megatons.

by **Trapper Gus** 2023-07-21, 11:46

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:A study by the murders suggests they had no choice but to murder it was truly the only option.

Look man, you can believe the 70 years of propaganda that’s been fed to you. I get it, it’s enticing and easier on the brain than thinking about the hard truths. I used to believe them too. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. But, it’s probably best to accept that you’re not going to convince me that there exists a scenario where the wholesale slaughter of entire cities is okay either. There isn’t. It was wrong then, it’d be wrong today, and a lot of effort has gone into justifying those choices over the years so that we don’t have to reckon with our own moral failings, instead solely pointing those fingers outward.

Probably correct, and FWIW the US has not abandoned the mass murder of civilians during war, even though studies from past wars show this tactic is counterproductive.

The evidence suggests that dropping those bombs and murdering hundreds of thousands of Japanese caused Japan to surrender, which saved even more Japanese lives. That is a cold choice to make, however in the heat of a war that had already murdered millions and millions of people the saving of anyone's life by whatever means, even the murder of hundreds of thousands, has at least some merit.

There is a thread of thought which believes that Japan was about to surrender anyway, however the attempted coup by the military suggests at least that there was strong opposition to surrender within the leadership in Japan, thus it is clear that not all of the leaders were of the mind to surrender at that time. We can choose to believe history, or not, as you say.

by **Floyd Robertson** 2023-07-21, 11:54

Diversion in 3...2...1

[tw]1682413149612285952[/tw]

by Pervis Muldoon 2023-07-21, 12:44

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Neat. I don’t think that murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians is okay, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise.

I've never been a WWII buff. The American Revolution was way cooler. So feel free to correct me on this. Imperial Japan was cruel, murderous and arrogant. I think it may have been necessary to show them that their entire country could be destroyed in a day; maybe only a brutal display of power could have turned Japan into the peaceful nation it is today.

Most of our soldiers were civilians before they were drafted into a war we didn't choose, so there shouldn't be that big of a distinction between soldiers and civilians. American husbands, fathers, brothers and sons were given weapons and sent overseas to kill and be killed in part because the citizens of Japan formed a murderous nation.

Not that I approve for the sake of revenge, but it's hard for me to have pity for the aggressors. And if they weren't decisively put down, wouldn't we have risked more aggression? The fact that we haven't had another world war is supporting evidence for dropping the bombs, murderous as those acts were.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 13:32

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Neat. I don’t think that murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians is okay, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves otherwise.

I've never been a WWII buff. The American Revolution was way cooler. So feel free to correct me on this. Imperial Japan was cruel, murderous and arrogant. I think it may have been necessary to show them that their entire country could be destroyed in a day; maybe only a brutal display of power could have turned Japan into the peaceful nation it is today.

Most of our soldiers were civilians before they were drafted into a war we didn't choose, so there shouldn't be that big of a distinction between soldiers and civilians. American husbands, fathers, brothers and sons were given weapons and sent overseas to kill and be killed in part because the citizens of Japan formed a murderous nation.

Not that I approve for the sake of revenge, but it's hard for me to have pity for the aggressors. And if they weren't decisively put down, wouldn't we have risked more aggression? The fact that we haven't had another world war is supporting evidence for dropping the bombs, murderous as those acts were.

The civilians that were murdered were not the aggressors.

by **kingstonlake** 2023-07-21, 13:43

With or without the bomb being dropped a shit ton of people will die. So what are we debating again?

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 13:46

kingstonlake wrote:without the bomb being dropped a shit ton of people will die

What we’re debating is that the people that decided to drop the bomb are the ones that have convinced you to accept this as fact, which is very convenient for the murderers to have you believe.

by **kingstonlake** 2023-07-21, 13:57

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:without the bomb being dropped a shit ton of people will die
What we’re debating is that the people that decided to drop the bomb are the ones that have convinced you to accept this as fact, which is very convenient for the murderers to have you believe.

Im not an expert on war but I think a shit ton of people would have died if a nuclear bomb were or were not dropped.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2023-07-21, 14:00

Jeffrey Dahmer- “if I didn’t eat those people they were each going to eat 5 more people so you see fewer people got eaten this way”

Kingston lake- “it’s so obvious that Jeffrey dahmer is right people gonna get ate what are we even talking about”

by **kingstonlake** 2023-07-21, 14:11

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Jeffrey Dahmer- “if I didn’t eat those people they were each going to eat 5 more people so you see fewer people got eaten this way”

Kingston lake- “it’s so obvious that Jeffrey dahmer is right people gonna get ate what are we even talking about”

Travis, I don’t know if dropping a nuclear bomb resulted in less dead people in the war with Japan. Is there an internet message board expert I should go to for a definitive answer? Razz

by Pervis Muldoon 2023-07-21, 14:32

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

I've never been a WWII buff. The American Revolution was way cooler. So feel free to correct me on this. Imperial Japan was cruel, murderous and arrogant. I think it may have been necessary to show them that their entire country could be destroyed in a day; maybe only a brutal display of power could have turned Japan into the peaceful nation it is today.

Most of our soldiers were civilians before they were drafted into a war we didn't choose, so there shouldn't be that big of a distinction between soldiers and civilians. American husbands, fathers, brothers and sons were given weapons and sent overseas to kill and be killed in part because the citizens of Japan formed a murderous nation.

Not that I approve for the sake of revenge, but it's hard for me to have pity for the aggressors. And if they weren't decisively put down, wouldn't we have risked more aggression? The fact that we haven't had another world war is supporting evidence for dropping the bombs, murderous as those acts were.
The civilians that were murdered were not the aggressors.

Do citizens bear any responsibility for the actions of their country?

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