Re: Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 10:49

The longer I live, the less I like religion.

All religions.

by **Death Roe** 2015-11-20, 10:51

Why isn't this moved to Wells?

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 10:55

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:Why do people think that Jordan and Turkey are our friends? If all hell breaks loose in that region (which it likely will), would you bet $100 that those two nations will have our back in any meaningful way? I say they either stand on the sidelines or provide covert support to the enemy. Islam comes first. Everything else is a distant second.

You know that whenever a country allows us to establish military bases on their soil, we give them boat loads of money for doing so. It's not "friendship", it's business.

It's about winning hearts and minds. I don't see any way we can do that. Certainly not by throwing money at 'em or providing temporary security for them.

The premise of your whole argument is false. "Islam comes first"? Islam as defined by who? Some Islamic countries may be hesitant to attack another Muslim country for fear of upsetting their populace, much like the U.S. would be hesitant to attack a christian nation (no matter what we say about the secularism of our government). But many of them routinely fight with groups that claim to be Muslim. In fact, MOST of them do. So pretty much you have no idea what you're talking about and have started with a premise you assume to be true and try to fit the facts to your argument.

1. You're raising a question that even they don't raise. They don't care who's "defining" Islam for them. But since you asked, the mullahs define Islam for most (not all) of the Muslim world. And they have a very radical and violent interpretation of Allah's word. This is my main point - that where are the so called "educated...moderated...peace loving" Muslims?? Why are they not on the front lines of the war against the radical elements of their own faith?? (Because they support them, that's why.)

2. They can fight among each other all they want, but when it comes to conflicts with the non-Muslim world, they will align with their Muslim brothers. (No different than within any family where two brother may fight, but will stand together against an ouside threat.)

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-11-20, 11:10

How many Americans have died at the hands of our government vs terrorism?

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 12234946_992252624167051_296225245565839209_n

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 12234946_992252624167051_296225245565839209_n

by **Rocinante** 2015-11-20, 11:19

Vlad wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

The premise of your whole argument is false. "Islam comes first"? Islam as defined by who? Some Islamic countries may be hesitant to attack another Muslim country for fear of upsetting their populace, much like the U.S. would be hesitant to attack a christian nation (no matter what we say about the secularism of our government). But many of them routinely fight with groups that claim to be Muslim. In fact, MOST of them do. So pretty much you have no idea what you're talking about and have started with a premise you assume to be true and try to fit the facts to your argument.

1. You're raising a question that even they don't raise. They don't care who's "defining" Islam for them. But since you asked, the mullahs define Islam for most (not all) of the Muslim world. And they have a very radical and violent interpretation of Allah's word. This is my main point - that where are the so called "educated...moderated...peace loving" Muslims?? Why are they not on the front lines of the war against the radical elements of their own faith?? (Because they support them, that's why.)

2. They can fight among each other all they want, but when it comes to conflicts with the non-Muslim world, they will align with their Muslim brothers. (No different than within any family where two brother may fight, but will stand together against an ouside threat.)

"Muslim Brothers" as defined by whom? Where are you getting this information? You're just pulling bullshit out of the ether to support your point. Get a clue man.

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 11:25

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:

1. You're raising a question that even they don't raise. They don't care who's "defining" Islam for them. But since you asked, the mullahs define Islam for most (not all) of the Muslim world. And they have a very radical and violent interpretation of Allah's word. This is my main point - that where are the so called "educated...moderated...peace loving" Muslims?? Why are they not on the front lines of the war against the radical elements of their own faith?? (Because they support them, that's why.)

2. They can fight among each other all they want, but when it comes to conflicts with the non-Muslim world, they will align with their Muslim brothers. (No different than within any family where two brother may fight, but will stand together against an ouside threat.)

"Muslim Brothers" as defined by whom? Where are you getting this information? You're just pulling bullshit out of the ether to support your point. Get a clue man.

Stupid question. I'll ignore it.

So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world? Where are they in this War on Terror? I don't see them leading the charge, as they should be doing.

by Toe 2015-11-20, 11:36

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:I am not informed enough to divulge into this thread as much as you guys are but I would like to comment how great religion is. We need to keep god and faith alive in all societies or nations will crumble.

I love religion.

yeah, as long as you're ignorant, you might as well troll.

+1

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-11-20, 11:39

Toe wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:I am not informed enough to divulge into this thread as much as you guys are but I would like to comment how great religion is. We need to keep god and faith alive in all societies or nations will crumble.

I love religion.

yeah, as long as you're ignorant, you might as well troll.

+1

Meh, I just don't like religion and that seems to be one of the main talking points with this issue. Seems to me the world would be a better place without it. Thanks for the +1.

by **Rocinante** 2015-11-20, 11:43

Vlad wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

"Muslim Brothers" as defined by whom? Where are you getting this information? You're just pulling bullshit out of the ether to support your point. Get a clue man.

Stupid question. I'll ignore it.

So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world? Where are they in this War on Terror? I don't see them leading the charge, as they should be doing.

"Stupid question. I'll ignore it." in other words, you don't have an answer so instead you will ask me a question that has nothing to do with the point. I, unlike you, will answer anyway.

"So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world?" Answer: That doesn't matter. Whether you define an Islamic-themed government as "moderate" or not, the point is that there is no evidence that the diaspora of Muslims world-over would support each other in conflict, no matter the motivation of the other.

It's this "other"ing of people as some sort of monsters that swarm to each other's aid like ants instead of being rational, thinking human beings is a big part of the problem, in my opinion.

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 11:51

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:

Stupid question. I'll ignore it.

So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world? Where are they in this War on Terror? I don't see them leading the charge, as they should be doing.

"Stupid question. I'll ignore it." in other words, you don't have an answer so instead you will ask me a question that has nothing to do with the point. I, unlike you, will answer anyway.

"So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world?" Answer: That doesn't matter. Whether you define an Islamic-themed government as "moderate" or not, the point is that there is no evidence that the diaspora of Muslims world-over would support each other in conflict, no matter the motivation of the other.

It's this "other"ing of people as some sort of monsters that swarm to each other's aid like ants instead of being rational, thinking human beings is a big part of the problem, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter that the moderates, the more educated, the peace loving masses within that faith are nowhere to be found?? Got it.

So we should simply expect more and more radicals to be born every day, and fan out around the world to carry out their jihad. Nice.

And the evidence you're looking for that they will stand together...well, you're just not paying attention. It's happening every day. Iraq and Pakistan are two recent examples.

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 11:52

Rocinante wrote:
Vlad wrote:

Stupid question. I'll ignore it.

So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world? Where are they in this War on Terror? I don't see them leading the charge, as they should be doing.

"Stupid question. I'll ignore it." in other words, you don't have an answer so instead you will ask me a question that has nothing to do with the point. I, unlike you, will answer anyway.

"So where are the moderates in the Mulsim world?" Answer: That doesn't matter. Whether you define an Islamic-themed government as "moderate" or not, the point is that there is no evidence that the diaspora of Muslims world-over would support each other in conflict, no matter the motivation of the other.

It's this "other"ing of people as some sort of monsters that swarm to each other's aid like ants instead of being rational, thinking human beings is a big part of the problem, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter that the moderates, the more educated, the peace loving masses within that faith are nowhere to be found?? Got it.

So we should simply expect more and more radicals to be born every day, and fan out around the world to carry out their jihad. Nice.

And the evidence you're looking for that they will stand together...well, you're just not paying attention. It's happening every day.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 11:54

Vlad wrote:The longer I live, the less I like religion.

All religions.

as I said in another post - religion clouds the judgment of people.

some people think god is really interested in the fact that they won a football game, some people think that god wants them to kill other people, some thinks that god wants them to actively work to deprive the most vulnerable among us basic human rights and services.

Once you can learn to live beyond the need of religion, it's amazing how liberated we truly become.

by **Rocinante** 2015-11-20, 11:55

How do you define "moderates" Oh, Vlad, seer of the truth. How about just one definition: Those who are not participating or supporting extremism.

In that case, the vast majority of Muslims are "moderates".

You paint this weird picture that reminds me a lot of the movie Starship Troopers.

"I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say KILL EM ALL!!"

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 12:37

Rocinante wrote:How do you define "moderates" Oh, Vlad, seer of the truth. How about just one definition: Those who are not participating or supporting extremism.

In that case, the vast majority of Muslims are "moderates".

You paint this weird picture that reminds me a lot of the movie Starship Troopers.

"I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say KILL EM ALL!!"

Wow, another great question. Gee...yeah, how do you define "moderate"? That's a tough one.

You win Rocinate. Not participating in and supporting extremism is all we ask of them. Just stand quietly on the sideline and watch it all happen, as the non-Muslim wages war at your door step.

by **Rocinante** 2015-11-20, 12:38

I know. I always do.

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 12:52

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Vlad wrote:The longer I live, the less I like religion.

All religions.
as I said in another post - religion clouds the judgment of people.

some people think god is really interested in the fact that they won a football game, some people think that god wants them to kill other people, some thinks that god wants them to actively work to deprive the most vulnerable among us basic human rights and services.

Once you can learn to live beyond the need of religion, it's amazing how liberated we truly become.

You sir are not just a great American, you are an enlightened soul!

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 12:54

Vlad wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
as I said in another post - religion clouds the judgment of people.

some people think god is really interested in the fact that they won a football game, some people think that god wants them to kill other people, some thinks that god wants them to actively work to deprive the most vulnerable among us basic human rights and services.

Once you can learn to live beyond the need of religion, it's amazing how liberated we truly become.

You sir are not just a great American, you are an enlightened soul!

awww, shucks.

Thanks, dude. Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 969504605

by **tGreenWay** 2015-11-20, 12:58

tTy wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Are we still bros, or are we just going to be regional partners now?

Bros with benefits.

by **The_Dude** 2015-11-20, 12:59

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:How many Americans have died at the hands of our government vs terrorism?

Why is it America's job to open its borders to all these people though?

Shouldn't the quality of life for actual Americans come first?

by **Rocinante** 2015-11-20, 12:59

Just stand quietly on the sideline and watch it all happen, as the non-Muslim wages war at your door step.

What are you doing to curb police violence against unarmed people, Vlad? How about gun violence? Oh, okay, well I'm going to assume you're as guilty as they are.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:04

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 Stue%20pic

by **Vlad** 2015-11-20, 13:06

Rocinante wrote:
Just stand quietly on the sideline and watch it all happen, as the non-Muslim wages war at your door step.

What are you doing to curb police violence against unarmed people, Vlad? How about gun violence? Oh, okay, well I'm going to assume you're as guilty as they are.

Wait...you didn't even give me a chance to answer dude! Wink

And can we stick to one issue at a time please? Or are you going to throw in world hunger and endanged whales too?

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-11-20, 13:07

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

DAMN RIGHT, BOBBY! MERICA! FREEDOM! LAND OF OPPORTUNTIY! Woo! ... oh.. wait.. nevermind.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:09

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DAMN RIGHT, BOBBY! MERICA! FREEDOM! LAND OF OPPORTUNTIY! Woo! ... oh.. wait.. nevermind.

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 502811600

next thing you know, christians will be wanting to slam the door on the poor.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-11-20, 13:09

tTy wrote:Also, there is one critical fact that none of you guys know about Vlad that makes you all look very foolish, but I'm not going to tell you what that is. He alluded to it earlier, but I'm sure you all pretty much brushed it off as moot. Stupid little inconsequential complexities....

I am going to say I would not feel entirely foolish. Maybe a little, but not entirely. That is not to downplay Vlad's special knowledge. Even if I disagree, he clearly pays more attention and is more informed than the average American. It has more to do with a critical fact about me.

by **tGreenWay** 2015-11-20, 13:13

The_Dude wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:How many Americans have died at the hands of our government vs terrorism?

Why is it America's job to open its borders to all these people though?

Shouldn't the quality of life for actual Americans come first?

America doesn't open its borders to all these people.

After a long vetting process, many will be turned away. And, AFAIK, we've always had annual limits on the number of people who can be accepted in. I think the ceiling varies. I may be wrong on that.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:16

tGreenWay wrote:
The_Dude wrote:

Why is it America's job to open its borders to all these people though?

Shouldn't the quality of life for actual Americans come first?

America doesn't open its borders to all these people.

After a long vetting process, many will be turned away. And, AFAIK, we've always had annual limits on the number of people who can be accepted in. I think the ceiling varies. I may be wrong on that.

you mean the scare tactics that the mainstream media is thrusting upon our most intellectually vulnerable citizens might not be.. {gulp}.. warranted??

Shocked

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:18

gotta admit, it's pretty funny watch ISIS scare the living daylights out of the big GOP tough guys.... Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1494614055

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1494614055

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:23

Republican Tough Guy: "Have them rag heads come at me and I'll introduce them to my two friends.. Smith and Wesson"..

Republican Tough Guy: "OH MY GOD.. THEY'RE COMING"!!!!! Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1550444538

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1550444538

by Toe 2015-11-20, 13:26

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DAMN RIGHT, BOBBY! MERICA! FREEDOM! LAND OF OPPORTUNTIY! Woo! ... oh.. wait.. nevermind.

good point. it's 2015, not 1886.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:27

Toe wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

DAMN RIGHT, BOBBY! MERICA! FREEDOM! LAND OF OPPORTUNTIY! Woo! ... oh.. wait.. nevermind.

good point. it's 2015, not 1886.

so we can get rid of the United States Constitution and all religious documents, too?

cool. Will save a lot of lives.

by **Giant Moose** 2015-11-20, 13:27

Giant Moose wrote:I think we should close our borders, but once a year offer a chance to come in if you find a ticket made out of gold in a bar of chocolate.

More of the world would be buying our chocolate so it would be good for our economy. Plus if more of the world is consuming chocolate, they would be getting fatter and then Americans wouldn't seem as fat in comparison any more.

C'mon guys. Just think about how funny it would be when the little Syrian refugee turns into a blueberry. Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1966794946

Pardon my long political rant, but I think you might actually agree with me here - Page 4 1966794946

by Toe 2015-11-20, 13:29

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Republican Tough Guy: "Have them rag heads come at me and I'll introduce them to my two friends.. Smith and Wesson"..

Governors and Urban Mayors: "OH MY GOD.. THEY'RE COMING"!!!!!

+1

by Toe 2015-11-20, 13:29

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Toe wrote:

good point. it's 2015, not 1886.
so we can get rid of the United States Constitution and all religious documents, too?

cool. Will save a lot of lives.

this

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:29

Toe wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:Republican Tough Guy: "Have them rag heads come at me and I'll introduce them to my two friends.. Smith and Wesson"..

Governors and Urban Mayors: "OH MY GOD.. THEY'RE COMING"!!!!!

+1

by Toe 2015-11-20, 13:30

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Toe wrote:

+1

bump

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-11-20, 13:30

Toe wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

bump

this.

by Toe 2015-11-20, 13:35

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Toe wrote:

bump
this.

by **tGreenWay** 2015-11-20, 13:36

xsanguine wrote:
tGreenWay wrote:

Please source this estimate.

The generally accepted number is around 300 million. This is determined through surveys by companies like Pew.

CM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a...after-iraq-war

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...t-infanticide/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...053251,00.html

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/...aardbaar.dhtml

Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...itish-islamist

Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/mu...ns.pdf#page=60

That's probably about 1/8th of the surveys used to reach that number. So there's plenty more where that came from if you're interested.

Thank-you for this. I'll be curious to see how questions were framed.

Not having read any of this yet, I'll note there's a difference between being a radical and sympathizing with the particular action of one who is. For example, an anti-abortion Christian woman who sympathizes with the person who blew up a clinic but would never consider doing such a thing herself. Or the anti-tax zealot who renounces his U.S. citizenship in favor of a country where there are no, or ultra low, income taxes. Many of us might completely understand the frustration, but would never burn our passports ourselves.

The bottom line is this: I think most of us, all around the world, just want to be left alone to live our lives, maintain our belief systems, practice our religions--or not, go to work, and be with our families.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-11-20, 13:38

Toe wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

DAMN RIGHT, BOBBY! MERICA! FREEDOM! LAND OF OPPORTUNTIY! Woo! ... oh.. wait.. nevermind.

good point. it's 2015, not 1886.

Yeah, because no one - especially the "patriots" that love to spout off that false bullshit about this country, thinks like that anymore. You know, the same ones that don't want any more durn foreigners takin er jobs even more.

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