Good NYT Opinion piece

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

If that's too rough for you snowflake, segregation was legal too. And Japanese internment camps. There are thousands of stupid laws in this country that go unenforced every day. The "we're just enforcing the law" excuse is just that. You can rationalize it all you want, but it's morally repugnant.

False equivalencies are fun.
Every day people get arrested throughout the US for breaking laws, their kids end up being 'separated' from them. Trying to illegally break into the country with your minor kids is ignorant, why don't you ask those parents why they put their kids in that position?
If you want asylum their are US consulates all over Central America to apply at, rather than dragging a child through all the way through gangland Mexico to the border. Now that is what I'd call child abuse.

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

This is a great thread..

Heat Miser wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

False equivalencies are fun.
Every day people get arrested throughout the US for breaking laws, their kids end up being 'separated' from them. Trying to illegally break into the country with your minor kids is ignorant, why don't you ask those parents why they put their kids in that position?
If you want asylum their are US consulates all over Central America to apply at, rather than dragging a child through all the way through gangland Mexico to the border. Now that is what I'd call child abuse.

Victim blaming & whataboutism in one post. Nice work. Did you get those from Hannity, Ingraham, or Coulter?

So you're saying the people choosing to break the law are not responsible and are not attempting to take advantage of a broken system?

DWags wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

False equivalencies are fun.
Every day people get arrested throughout the US for breaking laws, their kids end up being 'separated' from them. Trying to illegally break into the country with your minor kids is ignorant, why don't you ask those parents why they put their kids in that position?
If you want asylum their are US consulates all over Central America to apply at, rather than dragging a child through all the way through gangland Mexico to the border. Now that is what I'd call child abuse.

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

These kids don't either. That was the point of the separation, the court said you can't keep kids in adult jails. Why don't you pull some of those kids in cages photos from 2014 for me?

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

False equivalencies are fun.
Every day people get arrested throughout the US for breaking laws, their kids end up being 'separated' from them. Trying to illegally break into the country with your minor kids is ignorant, why don't you ask those parents why they put their kids in that position?
If you want asylum their are US consulates all over Central America to apply at, rather than dragging a child through all the way through gangland Mexico to the border. Now that is what I'd call child abuse.

Victim blaming & whataboutism in one post. Nice work. Did you get those from Hannity, Ingraham, or Coulter?

So you're saying the people choosing to break the law are not responsible and are not attempting to take advantage of a broken system?

Uh no. You obfuscated yourself right off topic, so I'll remind you. Separating children from their parents & putting them in cages. Try to keep up.

Heat Miser wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

So you're saying the people choosing to break the law are not responsible and are not attempting to take advantage of a broken system?

Uh no. You obfuscated yourself right off topic, so I'll remind you. Separating children from their parents & putting them in cages. Try to keep up.

Oh, you mean like this?

Detainees sleep and watch television in a holding cell where hundreds of mostly Central American immigrant children were being processed and held at the CBP Nogales Placement Center on June 18, 2014.Associated Press/Ross D. Franklin

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

So you're saying the people choosing to break the law are not responsible and are not attempting to take advantage of a broken system?

Uh no. You obfuscated yourself right off topic, so I'll remind you. Separating children from their parents & putting them in cages. Try to keep up.

Oh, you mean like this?

No, like this:

People who've been taken into custody related to cases of illegal entry into the US rest in one of the cages at a facility in McAllen, Texas on June 17, 2018.

and this:

In this photo provided by US Customs and Border Protection, migrants sit in one of the cages at a facility in McAllen, Texas on June 17, 2018.

Though the photos are nearly identical to those from 2014, there is one key difference between them: the 2014 photos showed only children who arrived at the border unaccompanied. The 2018 photos also show families that have been separated from one another.

That difference is significant — while unaccompanied children in 2014 knew what to expect when they arrived at the border and were taken to the holding facilities, the children who have been separated from their parents are often much younger, and had not expected to be taken away from their families.

Heat Miser wrote:

and that is not happening any more, per the President's executive order.
Would you rather have immigration officials just wave anyone through that happens to have a child with them? How about bank robbers that bring a child along, wouldn't want to lock them up, that would be inhumane.

I.B. Fine wrote:

DWags wrote:

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

These kids don't either. That was the point of the separation, the court said you can't keep kids in adult jails. Why don't you pull some of those kids in cages photos from 2014 for me?

Does that matter? Whataboutism. Trump should just keep doing it then. I mean most Americans agree, right?

I.B. Fine wrote:

Heat Miser wrote:

and that is not happening any more, per the President's executive order.
Would you rather have immigration officials just wave anyone through that happens to have a child with them? How about bank robbers that bring a child along, wouldn't want to lock them up, that would be inhumane.

1. You mean the executive order he signed after he lied & said only congress could fix the situation???
2. But it did happen & it's disgusting.
3. Thousands of them are still separated from their parents.
4. Bank robbers? Your strawman example is as ridiculous as the strawman itself. In Trumpland not wanting to take babies from their families = Just let everybody in like Obama did. 'Merica!!!

It's funny watching supporters of the racist, bigoted sexual predator try to defend the indefensible.

I.B. I was going to do a LMGTFY but there were too many articles to pick from so I'll just link one. NOTE - this must have been before he called black football players "sons of bitches" for peacefully protesting social injustice because that is not included. Or I glossed over it. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I.B. I was going to do a LMGTFY but there were too many articles to pick from so I'll just link one. NOTE - this must have been before he called black football players "sons of bitches" for peacefully protesting social injustice because that is not included. Or I glossed over it. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html

you're not trying to have a rational discussion with a supporter of the racist, bigoted sexual predator, are you?

I mean, it's cool if you are.. just don't expect to get anywhere.

(I know you know this).

I think it's possible Bob. I remain hopeful. 

I read an article today (non political) that I thought you would dig. The new MSU beat guy for the Athletic website is trying to get a feel for the town and went to a few of the local watering holes. I doubt the link works without a sub so I will post the article. You have 1 (one) free article remaining. 

https://theathletic.com/421453/2018/07/05/nostalgia-on-tap-and-pride-on-the-menu-the-stories-michigan-state-bars-tell/




College​ town sports​ bars and restaurants tend​ to take​ on the​ personality​ of the​ cities they’re located​​ in and the universities they surround.
They evoke fond sports-related memories for students, fans, residents and alumni coming back to town. They’re hot spots for reunions and gatherings. On Saturdays in the fall, they are havens for football fans, filled with memorabilia, photos, posters and culture.
For an outsider new to a city and unfamiliar with the notable players, coaches, plays and moments that have occurred over time, these establishments — and the people who run them — tell the story of a university’s athletic past.
And East Lansing’s bars and restaurants have stories to tell.

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Behind the bar on a Sunday night at Dagwood’s Tavern and Grill in Lansing, Nick Terwilliger is tending to his regulars. He roams from end-to-end, preparing drinks and taking food orders for the late-night crowd. He chats it up with anyone who takes a seat in front of him at the bar, and about 30 minutes before closing time, he says goodbye and safe travels as they exit after a night of conversation.
Most of those conversations revolve around sports. At Dagwood’s, Terwilliger, who is in his mid 40s, is commonly referred to as “the human sports encyclopedia” by his co-workers for his vast knowledge of sports, particularly Michigan State sports. It’s a nickname he’s still getting used to.
“That’s what they all tell me,” Terwilliger says when asked about his status as the bar’s designated sports guru. “I don’t know about that. I worked at another bar before this one. We had a lot of bartenders, but no one spoke sports. I learned a long time ago to do my homework and try to stay on top of things. Now I have a lot of things stuck in my head.”
At a moment’s notice, he can tell you the key players from every decade of MSU football dating back to the 1960s. He can tell you how many stars a Spartan in the NFL had when he was a recruit coming out of high school. And he can list off every notable figure tied to Michigan State athletics that has dined at Dagwood’s since he’s worked there: former quarterback Drew Stanton, play-by-play announcer George Blaha, former baseball player Kirk Gibson, former center Jason Strayhorn, late Spartans basketball coach Jud Heathcote and current basketball coach Tom Izzo, to name a few.
One of his favorite memories dates back to the 1993 Michigan State-Michigan football game, played at Spartan Stadium. Terwilliger and a group of friends were part of a sellout crowd on a windy, overcast afternoon in East Lansing, as Tyrone Wheatley and No. 9 Michigan rolled into town as heavy favorites. It was expected to be an easy win for Michigan, but behind a stingy defense and just enough offense from senior quarterback Jim Miller, Michigan State pulled off the upset, stunning the Wolverines 17-7.
Terwilliger and the Michigan State student section stormed the field to party on the 50-yard line.
“Today, we’d all be in jail,” he said, laughing. “Back then, it was a kinder, gentler world.”

As an East Lansing native and resident, Terwilliger has worked at Dagwood’s for six-and-a-half years. Just like his sports knowledge, he can tell you everything about the bar itself. How the building has been in its current spot since 1901, but didn’t become Dagwood’s until 1947. How the bar has had only three owners in its 71-year history. How the bar’s location on Kalamazoo Street is approximately a 15-minute walk from Spartan Stadium, making it a popular destination during football season.
It’s easy to see he genuinely enjoys his workplace.
“This is a little neighborhood bar that happens to support Michigan State Athletics,” Terwilliger said. “It’s a place to be, whether there’s a football game or a basketball game on, or if you come in any other day. It’s got the same kind of vibe. It’s usually friendly, pretty warm and inviting. People are pretty nice to talk to and we’ve got a pretty good burger here. You can’t really go wrong.”
Although he’s away from Spartan Stadium most weekends because of his job, he’s never far from the action. He’s worked New Year’s Day bowl games, like Michigan State’s thrilling 42-41 Cotton Bowl victory over Baylor in 2015. He’s also been behind the bar for recent installments of the Michigan State-Michigan rivalry, and was at Dagwood’s for Jalen Watts-Jackson’s recovered block punt and return for the game-winning touchdown as time expired in 2015.
He still looks forward to the start of a new football season with the same enthusiasm he had when he was younger, because he gets to share his fandom with a mix of strangers and regulars every Saturday in the fall.
“The atmosphere is electric,” he said with a smile. “If you’re around for a big game like Ohio State or Michigan, the feeling in the air is crazy. There are 150,000 people in a five-mile radius who aren’t here normally. You can hear the band. You can hear the crowd from the parking lot. It’s just one of those things where you see the amazing environment. Everybody’s ready for that to happen.”
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At Crunchy’s off Grand River Avenue, the bar’s green-painted exterior matches its love for Michigan State on the inside.
Each booth serves as a brief history lesson, as green and white string lights hang and illuminate notable MSU sports moments. There are framed and autographed photos of MSU football players, made out specifically to Crunchy’s, that have been up on the walls for decades. It has memorable, somewhat random team photo shoots, like the 1997-98 basketball team dressed as firemen and another team as boxers preparing for fight night. And above each booth, customers can find collages of old Michigan State football schedules blended into the walls.
Crunchy’s has been an East Lansing institution since the 1980s. Although it’s been passed on to different ownership a handful of times, it’s managed to keep its original feel.

Mike Krueger, the current owner and general manager, bought the bar from its previous owner in 2015. He had worked on staff since 2010, and the prospect of one day owning his own bar was appealing, especially one he’s known since he was a student at Michigan State in the late 1990s.
“I told the previous owner when she originally hired me that if she ever wanted to get out of here and sell the place, talk to me first,” Krueger recalled. “I was interested in taking this place on, and that’s what ended up happening.”
Like Krueger, the majority of the staff either attended Michigan State, or is from the Lansing/East Lansing area. Crunchy’s has been able to keep some continuity among its employees, a rarity for a college town bar, as some bartenders and waiters have been there for 10+ years. However, even the longest-tenured employees manage to find new pieces of memorabilia when they clock in for a shift.
“I notice things all the time that I never noticed were there,” said Sam Olson, a Lansing native who’s worked at Crunchy’s for eight years as a bartender and part-time manager. “We have so much stuff everywhere. You’re always kind of discovering new things and new sports moments on the walls and thinking, “Man, I wonder how long we’ve had that hanging up there?'”
This is by design. Krueger said he could spend thousands of dollars redecorating Crunchy’s to give it an updated image if he wanted to. Occasionally, when out shopping, he’ll see posters or unique pieces of memorabilia he’d like to add to its walls. But for the most part, he opts to keep things the same in order to preserve the ambiance.
“A lot of the stuff has been here since long before my time,” Krueger said. “The photos on the walls, the posters, the collages behind the glass where we have our TVs. That stuff’s all been here for a long time. And the response is always positive.”

Throughout the years, as other bars have sprouted in the area, Crunchy’s has been able to stay relevant by staying true to its core traditions. MSU fans, and even fans of other schools, are encouraged to sign their names into the walls of Crunchy’s before they head out, giving them a reason to come back and try to find their signature. On game days in the fall, employees try to create a stadium-like experience away from the stadium. They sound off horns and flicker the lights at the bar for every Michigan State touchdown, as a loud applause erupts from the football crowd taking in a game.
Crunchy’s has developed a model that’s worked for it so far, and a model that will continue as new classes of students come to campus, graduate and return later in life.
“This place makes people feel like they’re in Spartan country,” Krueger said. “There’s a lot of nostalgia here, and we get a lot of alumni that come back for football season. People just have good memories of Crunchy’s.”
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Off of Lake Lansing Road, near the border of Lansing and East Lansing, Dennis Wilcox is making the rounds at the Spartan Hall of Fame Cafe. He sports a green Michigan State polo shirt for his Wednesday afternoon shift, and his voice is kind and inviting, as he greets a new family and assigns a fellow staffer to seat them during a lunch rush.
“Hey folks,” he says. “How can I help you today?”
Wilcox is one of the managers at the restaurant, one of four franchises in a chain of university-themed spots, along with locations at Ohio State, Louisville and Marshall. The Michigan State location opened in 2007, and like others in the chain, it prides itself on creating a sense of nostalgia for its customers.
Inside, the floor tiles display the names of notable Michigan State athletes. Conference title and championship banners hang from the ceiling, connecting great MSU teams of the past with more recent counterparts. And several glass trophy cases line the halls, boasting autographed footballs and helmets, bowl rings and jerseys from former players and recent teams.
As a longtime Spartans fan growing up in Dewitt, working at a place that combines his two loves — the restaurant industry and Michigan State athletics — is an opportunity Wilcox never thought he’d have.
“Before here, I hadn’t really heard of the Hall of Fame restaurant chain,” Wilcox admitted. “But it’s a great concept. I have a background in the area. I have a background in this industry, and I’ve worked at multiple places. This is probably the best culture I’ve worked in. It’s a winning culture, and we kind of adopt some of those MSU team concepts here. It’s a great place to be, honestly.”
Wilcox’s job allows him to shift from restaurant manager to tour guide upon request. On this Wednesday, he takes me through the history of the memorabilia, sectioned off by sport.
He starts with the football display. Slightly worn out footballs with the date and score of Michigan State’s Rose Bowl victories are lined up on a top shelf. The late George Webster, considered among the best players in program history, has his 1966 All-American certificate enclosed under the lights. More recently, former MSU center and two-time first-team All-American Jack Allen loaned his 2010 Big Ten Championship ring to the restaurant.
Next up is basketball. Behind the glass display case, there are photos of a young Tom Izzo standing on a ladder cutting the net. Big Ten Championship hats line the bottom shelf, mixed with framed photos of past players and newspaper clippings. There’s even a commemorative box of Frosted Flakes cereal sitting on a lower shelf, with a photo of Izzo and former Spartans basketball players Mateen Cleaves, Morris Peterson and A.J. Granger on the cover after the team’s national championship in 2000.

Wilcox admires this history every day, and working at the Spartan Hall of Fame Cafe has allowed him to become even closer to Michigan State than the average fan. It inspired him to start collecting memorabilia in his own home, and the in-restaurant gift shop gives him an early look at the latest arrivals. In the past year, he’s met and developed relationships with Izzo, Mark Dantonio and other Michigan State coaches, who have access to a special coaches-only room in the back of the restaurant.
But aside from his own experience, Wilcox enjoys what the memorabilia does for others. It creates conversation, as he’ll often notice customers scanning trophy cases, pointing out items they like and telling background stories about some of the things on display before exiting the restaurant. It attracts MSU fans from all over the country on just about any day, from a Saturday in the fall to a Wednesday in the middle of the summer.
But most importantly, Wilcox says, the Spartan Hall of Fame Cafe is a place specifically designed for Michigan State alumni and fans to relive their favorite memories, while watching potential new ones unfold.
“People who come to our restaurant have pride in Michigan State,” Wilcox said. “I think people enjoy coming here because they’re Spartan fans. It’s a space to get together with other people who love MSU. You can get around your friends and just kind of decompress. It’s just cool to see people react to what we have.”
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Michigan State gave fans in these bars something to cheer about last year, going 10-3 overall, ending its season with a Holiday Bowl victory over Washington State. But expectations are even higher entering Year 12 of the Dantonio era.
The program is back in good shape after a brief drop-off in 2016. The offense returns 10 starters and the defense brings back nine. The young team from last season, led by rising quarterback Brian Lewerke, is a year older and a year wiser, with goals of winning another Big Ten title and a return to the College Football Playoff.
And while the summer is calm and relaxed with students out of town, these establishments and many others like them are gearing up for another busy football season — and perhaps some new memorabilia to hang on the walls.[/size][/size]

Awesome article.. thanks man.

good luck with your attempt at a logical conversation with a supporter of the racist, bigoted sexual predator. You're a good man.

DWags wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

These kids don't either. That was the point of the separation, the court said you can't keep kids in adult jails. Why don't you pull some of those kids in cages photos from 2014 for me?

Does that matter? Whataboutism. Trump should just keep doing it then. I mean most Americans agree, right?

If most = 46%, then yes.

NigelUno wrote:

DWags wrote:

Does that matter? Whataboutism. Trump should just keep doing it then. I mean most Americans agree, right?

If most = 46%, then yes.

100-46 = “well I said it, so it’s true”.

DWags wrote:

I.B. Fine wrote:

False equivalencies are fun.
Every day people get arrested throughout the US for breaking laws, their kids end up being 'separated' from them. Trying to illegally break into the country with your minor kids is ignorant, why don't you ask those parents why they put their kids in that position?
If you want asylum their are US consulates all over Central America to apply at, rather than dragging a child through all the way through gangland Mexico to the border. Now that is what I'd call child abuse.

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

If they brought their kids along for the crime they do go to detention or jail depending on their age. So you're wrong.

These illegals are bringing their kids along on the crime.

LooseGoose wrote:

DWags wrote:

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

If they brought their kids along for the crime they do go to detention or jail depending on their age. So you're wrong.

These illegals are bringing their kids along on the crime.

Goose said you're wrong. That solves that issue. Let's figure out guns next.

This piece doesn't offer a succinct definition of Trumpism, as such, but I think it's rather incisive:

https://www.thenation.com/article/this-political-theorist-predicted-the-rise-of-trumpism-his-name-was-hunter-s-thompson/

Seems pretty spot on from where I sit. It also touches upon why "Trump supporter = racist" is not as clear cut as many seem to think.

LooseGoose wrote:

DWags wrote:

Their kids don’t get thrown in jail.

If they brought their kids along for the crime they do go to detention or jail depending on their age. So you're wrong.

These illegals are bringing their kids along on the crime.

Jesus.

Cameron wrote:This piece doesn't offer a succinct definition of Trumpism, as such, but I think it's rather incisive:

https://www.thenation.com/article/this-political-theorist-predicted-the-rise-of-trumpism-his-name-was-hunter-s-thompson/

Seems pretty spot on from where I sit. It also touches upon why "Trump supporter = racist" is not as clear cut as many seem to think.

What’s weird to me is that the three guys I know who are huge Trump guys are in their 50’s, divorced, one guy three times, currently single and seem to not like women, or they feel some kind of way about women. I don’t know. But it’s my truth.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

If they brought their kids along for the crime they do go to detention or jail depending on their age. So you're wrong.

These illegals are bringing their kids along on the crime.

Goose said you're wrong. That solves that issue. Let's figure out guns next.

I’m not, and that line of thought is scary. It’s not America, but those guys now have the mic and they’re loud and obnoxious and embarrassing to everything this country stands for. Dendo is right, our country sucks right now.

I love the argument coming from supporters of the racist, bigoted sexual predator .

(I'm sorry if my comment is civil enough for the snowflakes).