WBH, I watched the replay this morning, we played zone against Duke

At least man with zone principles. Especially on that last play.

Why you calling me out? Did we have an argument about this when I was really drunk or something?

Also...I don't believe you. I will check it out. I think they started switching on screens 1-5 but I don't recall seeing zone.

Wat

Dwags, you should be calling me out for my awful take that Izzo needed to modernize his offense.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Why you calling me out? Did we have an argument about this when I was really drunk or something?

Also...I don't believe you. I will check it out. I think they started switching on screens 1-5 but I don't recall seeing zone.

No, not calling you out at all. It was my eureka moment. Now watching espn Jalen Rose was criticizing Coach K and part of his telestration he pointed out how “MSU falls into a 2-3 zone a number of times.” Then pointed it out with on the replays.

I just think when you sag off your man in key spots to help stop penetration it’s so similar to a zone it’s hard to call it man. They’re was a number of times Duke could have thrown it out while penetrating for a pretty good look at a three including that last play. K missed some shit in my opinion.

steveschneider wrote:Dwags, you should be calling me out for my awful take that Izzo needed to modernize his offense.

Lol. I’m not calling anyone out Steve. It my eyes tell me what I was looking at.

I’m calling out DWags for watching bspn and especially, that scummer Jailin Rose.

DWags wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Dwags, you should be calling me out for my awful take that Izzo needed to modernize his offense.

Lol. I’m not calling anyone out Steve. It my eyes tell me what I was looking at.

I'll call myself out. That alley oop play Izzo drew up after the TO

And that play to Goins was a thing of beauty.

tGreenWay wrote:I’m calling out DWags for watching bspn and especially, that scummer Jailin Rose.

In my defense, I can’t get enough of this shit. Seriously im scanning the channels. Looking for Duke/MSU break downs final four shit. I need to take a deep breath and relax a bit. It’s getting exhausting

DWags wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:I’m calling out DWags for watching bspn and especially, that scummer Jailin Rose.

In my defense, I can’t get enough of this shit. Seriously im scanning the channels. Looking for Duke/MSU break downs final four shit. I need to take a deep breath and relax a bit. It’s getting exhausting

I watched them all with exception to Skip/Shannon. Bunch of repeating crap. Dukes season was a failure. Cam Reddish drama, what really happened? Should have given the ball to Zion for the last play...

Settle down with the fuckin call outs dwags

DWags wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:I’m calling out DWags for watching bspn and especially, that scummer Jailin Rose.

In my defense, I can’t get enough of this shit. Seriously im scanning the channels. Looking for Duke/MSU break downs final four shit. I need to take a deep breath and relax a bit. It’s getting exhausting

C'mon, man, snap out of it. 24 hour rule has long since expired. The focus needs to be 100% on Texas Tech if tSwill is going to pull it's weight.

DWags wrote:No, not calling you out at all. It was my eureka moment. Now watching espn Jalen Rose was criticizing Coach K and part of his telestration he pointed out how “MSU falls into a 2-3 zone a number of times.” Then pointed it out with on the replays.

I think I see your problem - you believed what you heard from Jalen Rose.
Here is my advice, don't listen to assclowns (except those that are Swill posters)

steveschneider wrote:[I'll call myself out. That alley oop play Izzo drew up after the TO

And that play to Goins was a thing of beauty.

Read the Athletic thing posted somewhere on this board (I read it yesterday) - that Goins winner isn't the play that was drawn up, at least according to Goins.

DWags wrote:

tGreenWay wrote:I’m calling out DWags for watching bspn and especially, that scummer Jailin Rose.

In my defense, I can’t get enough of this shit. Seriously im scanning the channels. Looking for Duke/MSU break downs final four shit. I need to take a deep breath and relax a bit. It’s getting exhausting

Keep the lion in the cage. Peak at gametime on Saturday.

I noticed a couple possessions where guys defending the perimeter sagged. Has a quasi zone feel to it.

Y’all are really reaching with this zone talk.

Wally Fairway wrote:

DWags wrote:No, not calling you out at all. It was my eureka moment. Now watching espn Jalen Rose was criticizing Coach K and part of his telestration he pointed out how “MSU falls into a 2-3 zone a number of times.” Then pointed it out with on the replays.

I think I see your problem - you believed what you heard from Jalen Rose.
Here is my advice, don't listen to assclowns (except those that are Swill posters)

steveschneider wrote:[I'll call myself out. That alley oop play Izzo drew up after the TO

And that play to Goins was a thing of beauty.

Read the Athletic thing posted somewhere on this board (I read it yesterday) - that Goins winner isn't the play that was drawn up, at least according to Goins.

All good points, but I had thought we were more in a zone than man more than once. I guess it’s a ton of help defense. But when you have a theory, and you hear someone agree with you, you don’t care what kind of ass clown they are, they’re just smart in that particular instance.

Watching it again. We’re playing zone. I’m so fucking confused. It really looks like it. We play man 95% of the time but in spots we’re so much helping and denying penetration it looks like a zone. Would love to hear Izzo on this.

steveschneider wrote:Dwags, you should be calling me out for my awful take that Izzo needed to modernize his offense.

People called you out 12 months ago and you didn't want to listen.

DWags wrote:Watching it again. We’re playing zone. I’m so fucking confused. It really looks like it. We play man 95% of the time but in spots we’re so much helping and denying penetration it looks like a zone. Would love to hear Izzo on this.

so we were playing man to man but helped off and tried to clog the driving lanes, letting them shoot for the most part. considering duke is not an outside shooting team, this makes sense, no? i do not think overhelping and daring them to shoot is a zone d wags. maybe i am wrong.

Izzo would slap you upside the head for suggesting he was playing zone.

Izzo is 64 years old and set in his ways, and he doesn't keep secrets. If he played zone, I guarantee you he would have brought it up 3x in the press conference and mentioned Jud 3x. And then he would have brought it up another 3x in the off podium scrum and mentioned Jud another 3x.

I’m with wbh someone needs to slap wags for this take

i didn't see any zone. On that last play I agree with WBH's post that Henry was trying to foul and couldn't get the call from the ref. Barrett got in the paint and they walled him up.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Izzo would slap you upside the head for suggesting he was playing zone.

Izzo is 64 years old and set in his ways, and he doesn't keep secrets. If he played zone, I guarantee you he would have brought it up 3x in the press conference and mentioned Jud 3x. And then he would have brought it up another 3x in the off podium scrum and mentioned Jud another 3x.

Watching the 79 national championship on BTN jus plays a ton of zone. I don’t know, I still think we played with a lot of the same principles of a zone. They weren’t going to get in the lane without a struggle and we allowed some threes to be shot more so than in the past. I’d ask him on his radio show at Reno’s if he still does it. “Coach did you sneak a couple of wick zones in against Duke?”

I’d prepare for the slap.

Heathcote played 90% 2-3 match-up zone.

Right. Jud was always trying to talk Izzo into trying a zone. Every time anything zone related comes up, Izzo is sure to mention Jud more times than Carter's got liver pills.

Ok I took the time to look at some video of the last bit of the game. I am no expert on Xs and Os but I don't understand this observation at all. It is clear man to man, help defense. Very clear that our guys are not simply playing an area on the floor, they have man responsibilities. They sag off of Jones and Delaurier. They help on Zion and Barrett. A few times they switch. Not zone at all. If our guys look like they're playing zone it's because they're sagging off of Jones and Delaurier and looking to help and Duke doesn't have a lot of movement.

There’s been some poor takes on this board, including from me - but this may be the worst. Truly mind blowing.

What about Izzo needing to revamp his offense because Ward couldn't guard the pick and pop?

Nordic wrote:I don't know

Something something 2-3 matchup zone and not really cuz I don’t know either.

It looked more like press quarters to me (even though the corners weren't pressing).

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:What about Izzo needing to revamp his offense because Ward couldn't guard the pick and pop?

His offense did stink last year I’m not changing that take. Maybe it just takes an all time great PG to make his O work. Also, maybe the x’s and o’s Are the same but they are definitely doing stuff with the ball this year they weren’t doing last year. Driving the lanes, pump fakes, passing the ball better creating open shots, more players that can take a 3 etc. Last years O was hot garbage against decent opponents. They’d play hot potato with the ball and jack up a contested shot or turn it over with a shot clock violation.

I don't know, this team is just fun to watch. I don't get why I was so frustrated last year. Or, frankly, the years before that. In the past four years, I've watched 95% or more of every MSU basketball game and have been there for home games for at least 50% of them or more. I'm telling you, for some reason you'd leave the gym after victories with this feeling of "blah". So, whatever changes they've put in on offense, I hope they keep them. It's more fun to watch from the point of view of an amateur as far as eye appeal.

And sure, we were playing man WBH, but it sure looked like 2-3 zone principles. It's why it perked my interest. Then when Jalen Rose drew it up and said as much, it just got me thinking. That's all. No hot take, no big deal, just wanted to make an observation.

DWags wrote:<snip>... just wanted to make an observation.

How dare you.

DWags wrote:I don't know, this team is just fun to watch. I don't get why I was so frustrated last year. Or, frankly, the years before that. In the past four years, I've watched 95% or more of every MSU basketball game and have been there for home games for at least 50% of them or more. I'm telling you, for some reason you'd leave the gym after victories with this feeling of "blah". So, whatever changes they've put in on offense, I hope they keep them. It's more fun to watch from the point of view of an amateur as far as eye appeal.

And sure, we were playing man WBH, but it sure looked like 2-3 zone principles. It's why it perked my interest. Then when Jalen Rose drew it up and said as much, it just got me thinking. That's all. No hot take, no big deal, just wanted to make an observation.

Yeah, I agree. Also, we all follow it and give our opinions/hot takes but this team has defied so many expectations. A lot of us have looked wrong with this years team. No one saw this team going to the Final 4, beating Michigan 3x's, winning the B10 tournament, winning the conference and the best part is there could be more to come. I hope you have a great time out at the Final 4 and witness some more victories.

Prob said it before, but I think one of the issues with offense last year was reliance on Miles. I think Izzo felt a little indebted to him for coming back and one of his main goals last year was to prep him for the NBA, because that was a big part of the reason Miles told him he came back. That meant that he was going to play him exclusively on the wing, and on our team he might have been better as a 4. Also Miles game isn't really suited for the type of halfcourt sets that Izzo likes to run. He was not good at dribble driving last year (he's gotten better), he basically would play iso and take contested shots over people. Or get buckets in transition.

I also think his presence kept Cassius from stepping forward and being the on court leader who truly ran the show. He may not have been ready, but he had his moments and I was really praying he would.

The other big thing was OSU being the first team to figure out that doubling Ward was the way to play us. Every team copied them from there on out and Ward never got to the point where he could reliably pass out of it. The offense if you remember was pretty good until that point.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Prob said it before, but I think one of the issues with offense last year was reliance on Miles. I think Izzo felt a little indebted to him for coming back and one of his main goals last year was to prep him for the NBA, because that was a big part of the reason Miles told him he came back. That meant that he was going to play him exclusively on the wing, and on our team he might have been better as a 4. Also Miles game isn't really suited for the type of halfcourt sets that Izzo likes to run. He was not good at dribble driving last year (he's gotten better), he basically would play iso and take contested shots over people. Or get buckets in transition.

I also think his presence kept Cassius from stepping forward and being the on court leader who truly ran the show. He may not have been ready, but he had his moments and I was really praying he would.

The other big thing was OSU being the first team to figure out that doubling Ward was the way to play us. Every team copied them from there on out and Ward never got to the point where he could reliably pass out of it. The offense if you remember was pretty good until that point.

Agree with all of this. Saw an interview with Izzo yesterday with Chris Carter and he was talking about what makes Cassius so special. He was talking about his floor vision in being able to read through his options. Option one on a play isn't there, he's amazing at finding the 2nd and 3rd option really well on a play. He compared it to a QB that locks on in one receiver where as the great QB's when option 1 isn't open they can read through 2nd and 3rd option to find the open guy. My sense is this wasn't happening last year.

Looked more like we were in Pack Line a lot.

steveschneider wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Prob said it before, but I think one of the issues with offense last year was reliance on Miles. I think Izzo felt a little indebted to him for coming back and one of his main goals last year was to prep him for the NBA, because that was a big part of the reason Miles told him he came back. That meant that he was going to play him exclusively on the wing, and on our team he might have been better as a 4. Also Miles game isn't really suited for the type of halfcourt sets that Izzo likes to run. He was not good at dribble driving last year (he's gotten better), he basically would play iso and take contested shots over people. Or get buckets in transition.

I also think his presence kept Cassius from stepping forward and being the on court leader who truly ran the show. He may not have been ready, but he had his moments and I was really praying he would.

The other big thing was OSU being the first team to figure out that doubling Ward was the way to play us. Every team copied them from there on out and Ward never got to the point where he could reliably pass out of it. The offense if you remember was pretty good until that point.

Agree with all of this. Saw an interview with Izzo yesterday with Chris Carter and he was talking about what makes Cassius so special. He was talking about his floor vision in being able to read through his options. Option one on a play isn't there, he's amazing at finding the 2nd and 3rd option really well on a play. He compared it to a QB that locks on in one receiver where as the great QB's when option 1 isn't open they can read through 2nd and 3rd option to find the open guy. My sense is this wasn't happening last year.

Winston has great vision and awareness, and these skills are pronounced by his ability to dribble. He never looks at the ball. Dribbling is something he doesn't need to think about. The ball may as well be in his pocket.