Student Loans

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Well, I'm against the oil subsidies, too. So it's not like I'm choosing where to draw a line. That line is WAY in the back against the wall.

The thing is there has to be regulation to even create a market-based economy, and with regulation the government picks types of businesses to promote. You and I have touched on this in early discussions, so I know you know this.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

I would never talk about these things IRL. That would be rude.

But when I'm surrounded by people who have clearly made some very bad choices in life, it does make my little inside voice start to question things. And who better to actually voice these questions to than the caring, empathetic left wing socialists of tSwill?

I would never ask a Feminist Studies major with a minor in French Lit. why they should be bailed out. But I can ask you, Bob, Trap, and the others here and get a different perspective. It's interesting. It's the whole Ted Lasso be curious, not judgmental thing.

I get ya. If I didn't allow myself to deal with Rs, Id be a shut-in (in my county).

TravelinMan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

I think the issue here is where some people draw the line when looking at the big picture. Take for instance the oil subsidizing. You could remove the subsidizing in whole to pay for debt forgiveness and they would still be in profit by double digit billions. To me it's just an odd place to draw the line in the sand. But it's where we as a society have now been programmed to focus our angst. It's easier to be mad at something you can put a face on, like your neighbor. ExxonMobil Mobil corporate headquarters not so much.

Well, I'm against the oil subsidies, too. So it's not like I'm choosing where to draw a line. That line is WAY in the back against the wall.

kingstonlake wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Well, I'm against the oil subsidies, too. So it's not like I'm choosing where to draw a line. That line is WAY in the back against the wall.

I find this peculiar. Lots of people when opposing something will say "well I'm against that too" when a direct parallel is drawn. Yet, they've never spoken out against the "too." I mean, we have multiple economies, electric vehicles, and gas price threads.... Seems like it would have come up... once....

TravelinMan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

I find this peculiar. Lots of people when opposing something will say "well I'm against that too" when a direct parallel is drawn. Yet, they've never spoken out against the "too." I mean, we have multiple economies, electric vehicles, and gas price threads.... Seems like it would have come up... once....

Bump the oil subsidies thread and I'll post up my opposition. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen such a discussion here.

Turtleneck wrote:Is TM LB?

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Turtleneck wrote:Is TM LB?

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Turtleneck wrote:Is TM LB?

[tw]1668634333400244224?s=20[/tw]

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Turtleneck wrote:Is TM LB?

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admitting that they know an educated electorate is bad for their brand.

oh, and enjoy your kids moving back in with you.

sincerely,

republicans/libertarians

#MAGA

DWags wrote:He’s an iconic Spartan. What he says at the end is what I’m talking about. I refuse to debate assholes who don’t see the need and worse don’t understand the passion it takes to do it.  

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Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DWags wrote:He’s an iconic Spartan. What he says at the end is what I’m talking about. I refuse to debate assholes who don’t see the need and worse don’t understand the passion it takes to do it.  

[tw]1668827872901881857?s=46&t=o_-92Ldle66XHQBlJVUMFQ[/tw]

Gator Bill is one of the best guys you could ever meet.

and if folks choose not to see the value in social workers, counselors, educators, social scientists, museum curators, human services workers, etc., it says much more about them and their skewed sense of values than anything.

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career. His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

DWags wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career.   His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

Let’s just extrapolate that out for a moment. It’s the people in our country that put money first, that are the biggest reason and causes that we need social workers are, so she’s trying to, and teachers, you’ll get paid a little, but are necessary because of the greed and the uncaring nature of those who value money over everything else.

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career.   His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

DWags wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career.   His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

Let’s just extrapolate that out for a moment. It’s the people in our country that put money first, that are the biggest reason and causes that we need social workers are, so she’s trying to, and teachers, you’ll get paid a little, but are necessary because of the greed and the uncaring nature of those who value money over everything else.

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career. His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career.   His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

he worked hard to get to where he is (just ask him), and wherever he is is nowhere near where I would ever choose to be.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DWags wrote:

Let’s just extrapolate that out for a moment. It’s the people in our country that put money first, that are the biggest reason and causes that we need social workers are, so she’s trying to, and teachers, you’ll get paid a little, but are necessary because of the greed and the uncaring nature of those who value money over everything else.

and to extrapolate that even more, an educated electorate is in direct opposition to the materialistic goals of the people who "worked hard to get to where they are". They need an ignorant populace with no measurable degree of intellectual capacity to advance their sick republican/libertarian agenda.

Why do you think they demonize education and celebrate the great minds of our time like the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Three-Toed Greene, etc.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career. His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

Thank you. And one last attempt to further clarify - it's not all about the Benjamins. I understand not everyone is driven by some greed fueled desire to be the next Scrooge McDuck.

But somewhere below that step is a middle ground where you've at least gotta be able to pay your bills. Have a family. Maybe a dog or cat. Not stress about unexpected bills. Have a minuscule amount of financial security that provides for a home and three squares a day. If you're desired career isn't going to provide that.... then yeah, I think it's time to rethink your plans.

kingstonlake wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Thank you. And one last attempt to further clarify - it's not all about the Benjamins. I understand not everyone is driven by some greed fueled desire to be the next Scrooge McDuck.

But somewhere below that step is a middle ground where you've at least gotta be able to pay your bills. Have a family. Maybe a dog or cat. Not stress about unexpected bills. Have a minuscule amount of financial security that provides for a home and three squares a day. If you're desired career isn't going to provide that.... then yeah, I think it's time to rethink your plans.

And knowingly loaning against that is..... predatory.

TravelinMan wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
and to extrapolate that even more, an educated electorate is in direct opposition to the materialistic goals of the people who "worked hard to get to where they are". They need an ignorant populace with no measurable degree of intellectual capacity to advance their sick republican/libertarian agenda.

Why do you think they demonize education and celebrate the great minds of our time like the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Three-Toed Greene, etc.

I know you're just lashing out now, but what you've said is wrong.  The people "who worked hard to get to where they are" need an educated populace in order to advance their materialistic goals.  You can't make money from dumb poor people.  They don't have any to give you.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

I know you're just lashing out now, but what you've said is wrong.  The people "who worked hard to get to where they are" need an educated populace in order to advance their materialistic goals.  You can't make money from dumb poor people.  They don't have any to give you.

not sure you understand the framework that the republican/libertarian agenda is utilizing in an attempt to consolidate power.

and that's probably their point.. you're supposed to just willingly adhere to it and spout their talking points accordingly.

TravelinMan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

And knowingly loaning against that is..... predatory.

So should we only loan to majors that have a certain expected starting salary?  That doesn’t seem right.

TravelinMan wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
and to extrapolate that even more, an educated electorate is in direct opposition to the materialistic goals of the people who "worked hard to get to where they are". They need an ignorant populace with no measurable degree of intellectual capacity to advance their sick republican/libertarian agenda.

Why do you think they demonize education and celebrate the great minds of our time like the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Three-Toed Greene, etc.

I know you're just lashing out now, but what you've said is wrong.  The people "who worked hard to get to where they are" need an educated populace in order to advance their materialistic goals.  You can't make money from dumb poor people.  They don't have any to give you.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:To be fair to TM, and only TM, he isn't denying their value, he just is questioning why anyone would accept such a low paying career. His (to me twisted) set of values is first all about the Benjamins.

Thank you. And one last attempt to further clarify - it's not all about the Benjamins. I understand not everyone is driven by some greed fueled desire to be the next Scrooge McDuck.

But somewhere below that step is a middle ground where you've at least gotta be able to pay your bills. Have a family. Maybe a dog or cat. Not stress about unexpected bills. Have a minuscule amount of financial security that provides for a home and three squares a day. If you're desired career isn't going to provide that.... then yeah, I think it's time to rethink your plans.

TravelinMan wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
not sure you understand the framework that the republican/libertarian agenda is utilizing in an attempt to consolidate power.

and that's probably their point.. you're supposed to just willingly adhere to it and spout their talking points accordingly.

I would be fascinated to hear your explanation of the Libertarian agenda. You can leave out the Republicans. I have no interest in them.

TravelinMan wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
not sure you understand the framework that the republican/libertarian agenda is utilizing in an attempt to consolidate power.

and that's probably their point.. you're supposed to just willingly adhere to it and spout their talking points accordingly.

I would be fascinated to hear your explanation of the Libertarian agenda. You can leave out the Republicans. I have no interest in them.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I will never understand how average working people could ever vote for a republican/libertarian.

it's just mind-boggling to me.

of course, it's because the mainstream media, along with help from the republicans/libertarians (as we see in this thread), keep them distracted and ignorant. It's literally their goal and they celebrate it. They don't even try to hide it.

still unfortunate.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:I will never understand how average working people could ever vote for a republican/libertarian.

it's just mind-boggling to me.

of course, it's because the mainstream media, along with help from the republicans/libertarians (as we see in this thread), keep them distracted and ignorant. It's literally their goal and they celebrate it. They don't even try to hide it.

still unfortunate.

Not totally disagreeing, however starting with the Democratics who supported Taft-Heartly during Truman, forwarding to JFK, & the LBJ cutting taxes on the highest earners, followed by Carter starting the deregulation of the economy and then the train wreaks that Clinton & Obama were, economically, from a progressive pov, the Democratics haven't been what they should have been, which is part of why the less educated Whites flocked to Trump, who promised to change that, though we know he lied.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:


Not totally disagreeing, however starting with the Democratics who supported Taft-Heartly during Truman, forwarding to JFK, & the LBJ cutting taxes on the highest earners, followed by Carter starting the deregulation of the economy and then the train wreaks that Clinton & Obama were, economically, from a progressive pov, the Democratics haven't been what they should have been, which is part of why the less educated Whites flocked to Trump, who promised to change that, though we know he lied.

it's 100% rooted in racism, bigotry, misogyny.

which, of course, is born out of being poorly educated, combined with the absence of an intellectual curiosity.

I doubt the republicans/libertarians are going to be running around quoting the historical impact of previous Administrations that you referenced (remember.. anti-education pays off), but what they can be easily manipulated into believing is that brown people are here to murder you, your family and take what you "worked hard" for.. the gays want to have butt seXXX with your 2nd grader and that women aren't capable of having agency and autonomy over their own decisions.

hence, racism, bigotry and misogyny.

I know the republican/libertarian folks don't like it, but it's really that simple.

kingstonlake wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

So should we only loan to majors that have a certain expected starting salary?  That doesn’t seem right.

You said people are stupid for getting a major in a field that makes them poor.
What do you call entities knowingly loaning people money to get a degree in a field for a loan they can't re-pay or at best will be in perpetual garnishment for...

Trapper Gus wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
it's 100% rooted in racism, bigotry, misogyny.

which, of course, is born out of being poorly educated, combined with the absence of an intellectual curiosity.

I doubt the republicans/libertarians are going to be running around quoting the historical impact of previous Administrations that you referenced (remember.. anti-education pays off), but what they can be easily manipulated into believing is that brown people are here to murder you, your family and take what you "worked hard" for.. the gays want to have butt seXXX with your 2nd grader and that women aren't capable of having agency and autonomy over their own decisions.

hence, racism, bigotry and misogyny.

I know the republican/libertarian folks don't like it, but it's really that simple.

Again, not disagreeing, but it is slightly more complex, as others have pointed out, the jealously of their neighbors perceiving to get more, from the government, than they get, also is part of it.

If the government had protected the wages of the workers it might be different but we will never know.

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Thank you. And one last attempt to further clarify - it's not all about the Benjamins. I understand not everyone is driven by some greed fueled desire to be the next Scrooge McDuck.

But somewhere below that step is a middle ground where you've at least gotta be able to pay your bills. Have a family. Maybe a dog or cat. Not stress about unexpected bills. Have a minuscule amount of financial security that provides for a home and three squares a day. If you're desired career isn't going to provide that.... then yeah, I think it's time to rethink your plans.

It's not the fault of those who enter those careers that the "market" system doesn't pay them well. That is all about the "market" system being based, not as some believe, on free trade, but on the power of those in the transactions.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

DWags wrote:He’s an iconic Spartan. What he says at the end is what I’m talking about. I refuse to debate assholes who don’t see the need and worse don’t understand the passion it takes to do it.  

[tw]1668827872901881857?s=46&t=o_-92Ldle66XHQBlJVUMFQ[/tw]

Gator Bill is one of the best guys you could ever meet.

and if folks choose not to see the value in social workers, counselors, educators, social scientists, museum curators, human services workers, etc., it says much more about them and their skewed sense of values than anything.

Turtleneck wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Gator Bill is one of the best guys you could ever meet.

and if folks choose not to see the value in social workers, counselors, educators, social scientists, museum curators, human services workers, etc., it says much more about them and their skewed sense of values than anything.

I don't know who Gator Bill is, but since Bob gives so few endorsements, this person must be a saint.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

It's not the fault of those who enter those careers that the "market" system doesn't pay them well. That is all about the "market" system being based, not as some believe, on free trade, but on the power of those in the transactions.

So people have no obligation whatsoever to do a little research into their chosen field? People have no personal responsibility for their own ability to make a living?

I disagree with that very much.