Student Loans

"The total amount of outstanding student loans reached an all-time high in 2019, at $1.41 trillion, according to the credit reporting agency Experian".

https://www.wsj.com/articles/student-loan-losses-seen-costing-u-s-more-than-400-billion-11605963600

"
Student Loan Losses Seen Costing U.S. More Than $400 Billion
Projected toxic debt approaches subprime-mortgage losses incurred by lenders during financial crisis
"

[tw]1329078247707971584?s=20[/tw]


One of the charts shows that since 2009, a majority of the student loans issued have a higher balance than the date of origination and it's true very every year since 2009.

The lending industry around higher education is a complete racket and in my view a tool to rig society in favor of big business. I don't know what the solution is and debt forgiveness doesn't really sit well with me but honestly I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle doing anything meaningful to fix this problem.

steveschneider wrote:"The total amount of outstanding student loans reached an all-time high in 2019, at $1.41 trillion, according to the credit reporting agency Experian".

https://www.wsj.com/articles/student-loan-losses-seen-costing-u-s-more-than-400-billion-11605963600

"
Student Loan Losses Seen Costing U.S. More Than $400 Billion
Projected toxic debt approaches subprime-mortgage losses incurred by lenders during financial crisis
"

[tw]1329078247707971584?s=20[/tw]


One of the charts shows that since 2009, a majority of the student loans issued have a higher balance than the date of origination and it's true very every year since 2009.

The lending industry around higher education is a complete racket and in my view a tool to rig society in favor of big business. I don't know what the solution is and debt forgiveness doesn't really sit well with me but honestly I don't see anyone on either side of the aisle doing anything meaningful to fix this problem.

Is it my turn to do this? I think it’s my turn.

Why not steve?

Cause he had to pay them and mr. social justice who aspires to be a landlord is actually selfish.

Turtleneck wrote:Cause he had to pay them and mr. social justice who aspires to be a landlord is actually selfish.

Not at all I wouldn't lose one second of sleep if there was forgiveness given to people drowning in debt and yes I acknowledge I left with much more manageable student debt and graduated during a time with a better job market. Something has to be done about it I guess I tilt more towards a UBI solution that benefits everyone or government creating jobs that works in some kind of loan forgiveness after x amount of years of employment. I think there has to be some kind of bail out/solution that includes non college folks as well.

Steve you’re a fucking idiot who can’t even see one move past the one that’s being made and I’m sick of it. How much money do you think govt held student load forgiveness would free up to stimulate an economy that is currently worse than during the 2008 financial crisis? I’ll just tell you. 90bn. Per year.

Rocinante wrote:Steve you’re a fucking idiot who can’t even see one move past the one that’s being made and I’m sick of it. How much money do you think govt held student load forgiveness would free up to stimulate an economy that is currently worse than during the 2008 financial crisis? I’ll just tell you. 90bn. Per year.

I was wondering if some study figured this out. I was thinking those crazy kids would travel and help bring back the restraunt industry too. All the shit 20 somethings line to do. It would help that part of our economy. But I do want to know how the lenders will be made whole. Will they be punished in this? Doesn’t seem right to me.

So, my kid is paying for school as he goes along. LCC right now... Will be transferring somewhere big and expensive soon.

His cousin is deep in debt going right into a big school and sorority and planning a future semester abroad... All on loans (and some schollies).

My kid is going to get jobbed being responsible.

I have over hundred grand in 529s I've been saving for 20 years for my 3 kids... Thinking of having them taking loans out anyway with this forgiveness talk.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:So, my kid is paying for school as he goes along. LCC right now... Will be transferring somewhere big and expensive soon.

His cousin is deep in debt going right into a big school and sorority and planning a future semester abroad... All on loans (and some schollies).

My kid is going to get jobbed being responsible.

I have over hundred grand in 529s I've been saving for 20 years for my 3 kids... Thinking of having them taking loans out anyway with this forgiveness talk.

Good question. Who's on the hook? A guy like me who didn't take a loan out ever and who's parents ponied up? I'm not dug in on either side of the argument, just want to know how the debt is written off.

Seriously (not really) if loans are forgiven can I go back in time and tell my kids the strategy is student loans to the max instead of parents paying 100%? All that extra money in my IRA would be super sweet and I'd pump it back into the economy anyway.

Here's a question... Can I pay their loans with my 529 in the future?
Have them take loans... See how this plays out. Pay the remainder later.
I have a sr. who wants to go out of state initially.... Or just do lcc to save money. He's deciding. If this s it will be forgiven it totally plays into his decision.

Warren and Schumer have been tweeting about this lately as a way to pump money into the economy... Not sure it's the best way to do it. Too many choices go into having outrageous student loan debt. (Some really bad choices). Really, I'd rather them give money directly to poors.

I wouldn't be happy paying for some east coast instagram model's art history degree (complete with 2 years in paris).

So what I’m hearing is “I paid off my loans so fuck all the people that can’t. And by the way fuck the economy too. Because I paid off my loans and everybody should have to even if they were fleeced by for profit colleges, got worse terms than I did because of their race, are consistently underemployed even with a similar education to mine, and are the first generation to get a higher education in their family. Basically fuck them because I’m a selfish prick and would be more pissed about not having been able to buy that hypothetical boat I wanted than I would be about the economy collapsing because reasons.”

Floyd Robertson wrote:Seriously (not really) if loans are forgiven can I go back in time and tell my kids the strategy is student loans to the max instead of parents paying 100%? All that extra money in my IRA would be super sweet and I'd pump it back into the economy anyway.

This is why I think either a ubi for everyone or some kind of gov investment in job creation program that leads to loan forgiveness.

As it stands now it’s just pernicious capitalism and debt peonage.

Rocinante wrote:So what I’m hearing is “I paid off my loans so fuck all the people that can’t. And by the way fuck the economy too. Because I paid off my loans and everybody should have to even if they were fleeced by for profit colleges, got worse terms than I did because of their race, are consistently underemployed even with a similar education to mine, and are the first generation to get a higher education in their family. Basically fuck them because I’m a selfish prick and would be more pissed about not having been able to buy that hypothetical boat I wanted than I would be about the economy collapsing because reasons.”

I acknowledge how most of my success is due to sheer luck. I graduated during the Clinton 90's when the job market was robust and I was able to get an education with a manageable pile of debt. I Wouldn't lose any sleep if they got a break as well.

Fall into the GOP/McConnell trap.  They are using the same Bullshit arguments that were used when the GOP opposed the GI Bill in 1944.

The GOP opposes any forms of forgiveness (see Betsy DeVos’s actions or inactions as Sec of Ed.). It’s two fold.

1.  It’s a multi-billion financial industry.  GOP doesn’t want to rock the boat of the nation’s financiers.  Too many people making too much money.

2.  It’s the I didn’t get that benefit so Ef you attitude by ham and eggers some of whom have degrees while those without degrees bitch about the educated class.  

Exactly what the plutocrats want.  They are happy with a select few running the show.  They will go anywhere to get their medical problem fixed or fly in specialists if there are none in the US.  But it’s the rest of us who will bear the burden of having upper and middle management being populated by RDK’s  ( Rich Dumb Kids) because their families can afford to keep on sending them to colleges and universities.

Post WW2 history from 1945-1970’s shows how the GI Bill upset a lot of apple carts with a path upward mobility it created for millions of American families.  

The GOP started chipping away at that reducing Federal spending for higher Ed.  States like MI followed suit by reducing state higher Ed spending all in the name of fiscal responsibility.  Those shifts to student responsibility are the reasons why we are seeing the student loan mess.  

Education investment is like infrastructure investment.  Ignore it long enough and the “savings” end up costing all of us more in the long run.

Rocinante wrote:So what I’m hearing is “I paid off my loans so fuck all the people that can’t. And by the way fuck the economy too. Because I paid off my loans and everybody should have to even if they were fleeced by for profit colleges, got worse terms than I did because of their race, are consistently underemployed even with a similar education to mine, and are the first generation to get a higher education in their family. Basically fuck them because I’m a selfish prick and would be more pissed about not having been able to buy that hypothetical boat I wanted than I would be about the economy collapsing because reasons.”

Honestly Roc I think you'd hear that regardless of what anyone says. I think we all agree something needs to be done.

Maybe the answer is to all borrowers or student loans to have bankruptcy protection?

The economy can be stimulated in a more equitable way then debt.

The "for profit" bullshit is all Devos/trump, reversing the Obama era program. Different issue than this. Same as racial inequity in interest rates, that should be illegal for a million other reasons.

Agree bankruptcy should totally be available for student debt.

I would be more supportive of free schollies for every kid... 10k year or something... As opposed to directly financing higher ed and it's continual need to rebuild every building on campus every 5 years. Maybe something limiting tuition too. Higher ed is broke. Not sure free money fixes it.

I wish people would get this worked up when it came to giving trillions in tax breaks to billionaires instead of just when it might go to your neighbors instead of you. Alas.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I wish people would get this worked up when it came to giving trillions in tax breaks to billionaires instead of just when it might go to your neighbors instead of you. Alas.

Totally get this. I’m just curious as to the lenders if the loans are forgiven. Do they get made whole or are they on the hook?

I guess what makes this one hit home, I know at least three people that have completely said fuck it and won't pay theirs back. Why? They can't fucking afford it. One went to University of Miami, smart fucking dude and you ever see that Sex Pistols gig in SF when Johhny Rotten goes 'Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?' that sums it up.

DWags wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:I wish people would get this worked up when it came to giving trillions in tax breaks to billionaires instead of just when it might go to your neighbors instead of you. Alas.

Totally get this. I’m just curious as to the lenders if the loans are forgiven. Do they get made whole or are they on the hook?

I don’t think that anyone knows exactly how this would work yet dwags, but assuming we’re only talking about debt where someone other than the government is the lender, yeah I’d imagine they’d have to be made whole on it. The government couldn’t forgive my mortgage without giving the bank the money. Otherwise the bank would just say “lol no someone still owes me money tho”

If those types of loans (non government owned) would even be forgiven, which would be an open question. Note- I don’t really know who actually owns most student debt vs services it vs guarantees it etc because it’s a mess of a system. I think the government owns the bulk but I dunno really.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

DWags wrote:


Totally get this. I’m just curious as to the lenders if the loans are forgiven. Do they get made whole or are they on the hook?

I don’t think that anyone knows exactly how this would work yet dwags, but assuming we’re only talking about debt where someone other than the government is the lender, yeah I’d imagine they’d have to be made whole on it. The government couldn’t forgive my mortgage without giving the bank the money. Otherwise the bank would just say “lol no someone still owes me money tho”

If those types of loans (non government owned) would even be forgiven, which would be an open question. Note- I don’t really know who actually owns most student debt vs services it vs guarantees it etc because it’s a mess of a system. I think the government owns the bulk but I dunno really.

Over 90% of student loan debt is owned by the federal government. I doubt there would be an attempt to forgive debt owned by private lenders.

An angle that might irk people is if you default on a home or car you lost the property to the lender. In a defaulted student loan you still get to keep the education.

FYI

I went to MSU courtesy of the old GI Bill. I gave them 4 years of my life and Uncle Sam paid MSU. Enough to pay for everything including tuition, married housing at University Village and almost all my books.

My oldest is still paying for grad school but her degree made it possible to start @ $110K / yr out right out of school too.

kingstonlake wrote:An angle that might irk people is if you default on a home or car you lost the property to the lender. In a defaulted student loan you still get to keep the education.

But you also had to work for the education. It wasn't as if you handed them payment and they handed you a degree. You still had to earn a minimum number of credit hours to receive the degree over the lending period. That is not the case with a car or house.

If I could give my education back and msu would give me back my money I’d do it. I’m retired now and don’t need it anymore.

Turtleneck wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:An angle that might irk people is if you default on a home or car you lost the property to the lender. In a defaulted student loan you still get to keep the education.

But you also had to work for the education. It wasn't as if you handed them payment and they handed you a degree. You still had to earn a minimum number of credit hours to receive the degree over the lending period. That is not the case with a car or house.

I think we've stumbled on the reason why a college education might oughta be free.

Are these going to be the topics for the next 4 years? /yawn

InTenSity wrote:Are these going to be the topics for the next 4 years? /yawn

InTenSity wrote:Are these going to be the topics for the next 4 years? /yawn

I'll take 4 years of this v babies in cages, etc.

I haven’t read all the responses on here.

I don’t want to dish the full sob story about student loans, but here’s a summary.
I paid mine off, we will never ever pay off my husbands. We were told our whole lives we were doing the right thing. Went to all the financial meetings in grad school. People don’t realize they lie to students all the time. And encourage the loans saying they won’t have problems paying them off.
Add in interest rates at 7% on 6 figure loans, and our over 1500/month payment still didn’t cover interest (this is with income based repayment)I want to live a life. So we are filing separately so my income isn’t included to give us some breathing room.

DWags wrote:If I could give my education back and msu would give me back my money I’d do it. I’m retired now and don’t need it anymore.

How much was tuition back then grandpa? Like $100 a semester?

Dendrobates wrote:I haven’t read all the responses on here.

I don’t want to dish the full sob story about student loans, but here’s a summary.
I paid mine off, we will never ever pay off my husbands. We were told our whole lives we were doing the right thing. Went to all the financial meetings in grad school. People don’t realize they lie to students all the time. And encourage the loans saying they won’t have problems paying them off.
Add in interest rates at 7% on 6 figure loans, and our over 1500/month payment still didn’t cover interest (this is with income based repayment)I want to live a life. So we are filing separately so my income isn’t included to give us some breathing room.

I know a few people in the exact same boat. They just can't afford to pay them and stopped. At a certain point you have to choose between a roof over you head a car to get to your job and food or pay the student loans.

Dendrobates wrote:I haven’t read all the responses on here.

I don’t want to dish the full sob story about student loans, but here’s a summary.
I paid mine off, we will never ever pay off my husbands. We were told our whole lives we were doing the right thing. Went to all the financial meetings in grad school. People don’t realize they lie to students all the time. And encourage the loans saying they won’t have problems paying them off.
Add in interest rates at 7% on 6 figure loans, and our over 1500/month payment still didn’t cover interest (this is with income based repayment)I want to live a life. So we are filing separately so my income isn’t included to give us some breathing room.

This sucks Dendro. Any chance you can get a lower rate like a mortgage refinance?

kingstonlake wrote:An angle that might irk people is if you default on a home or car you lost the property to the lender. In a defaulted student loan you still get to keep the education.

So be it.

If you do all of the "right things", work hard graduate college, etc etc etc and the "real world" economy can't support your debt... the debt was out of whack with the market in the first place, right?

Higher ed in general is really a cluster fuck. (How much different is MSU campus then when you graduated (building-wise)... where does that money come from? You know what professors make? All of this shit is wrapped up in why it's so goddamned expensive now.)

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:I haven’t read all the responses on here.

I don’t want to dish the full sob story about student loans, but here’s a summary.
I paid mine off, we will never ever pay off my husbands. We were told our whole lives we were doing the right thing. Went to all the financial meetings in grad school. People don’t realize they lie to students all the time. And encourage the loans saying they won’t have problems paying them off.
Add in interest rates at 7% on 6 figure loans, and our over 1500/month payment still didn’t cover interest (this is with income based repayment)I want to live a life. So we are filing separately so my income isn’t included to give us some breathing room.

This sucks Dendro. Any chance you can get a lower rate like a mortgage refinance?

We possibly can. The issue if you do that, is you forfeit the income based repayment plan permanently. Which gives you the security if you ever get laid off and can defer for a bit. And then you also can’t get the forgiveness after 25 years.
The monthly payment would still be larger than the 1500 as it was. And that is all our money as it is.

Dendrobates wrote:I haven’t read all the responses on here.

I don’t want to dish the full sob story about student loans, but here’s a summary.
I paid mine off, we will never ever pay off my husbands. We were told our whole lives we were doing the right thing. Went to all the financial meetings in grad school. People don’t realize they lie to students all the time. And encourage the loans saying they won’t have problems paying them off.
Add in interest rates at 7% on 6 figure loans, and our over 1500/month payment still didn’t cover interest (this is with income based repayment)I want to live a life. So we are filing separately so my income isn’t included to give us some breathing room.

The crisis was avoidable, and possibly intentional. Nor is the debt balanced across socio-demographics. It's a mess.

The problem is if forgiveness happens, it obviously doesn’t fix the problem. We all know it’s not just 1 thing causing the massive debt. How to address all those issues? I don’t know, but I know it will not be a one time fix.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

DWags wrote:If I could give my education back and msu would give me back my money I’d do it. I’m retired now and don’t need it anymore.

How much was tuition back then grandpa? Like $100 a semester?

Everything is relative. However, when I started at MSU it was 28 dollars per credit hour. Back then, that was a lot. I paid for my college with occasional help from the parents. I think I had one loan. My wife's family just wrote checks for her. My wife and I are paying for both daughters. Lots from the savings shit, some from our investments and a bit from loans. We'll get them out of college debt free. We however, are broke. No big vacations, simple house, paid off cars etc. No boat in boat town all that kind of shit.

But Dwags in 1980 = 28 dollars a credit hour
Dwags kids in 2020 = 482 a credit hour or something like 7400 dollars for a flat rate now.

That is one fucked up scale.