Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 9:14

TravelinMan wrote:The CEO of Toyota, the second largest automotive manufacturer in the world, is again cautioning people against the EV hype.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

This comes on the heels of previous comments in October for which he took a lot of criticism.

https://fortune.com/2022/10/02/toyota-ceo-electric-vehicles-hype-department-store-of-powertrains/

Cynics will suggest this is because Toyota has bet heavily on hydrogen power, but I suspect he's also echoing a silent majority.

Not cynical to point out that Toyota is way behind on EV's, and that as an officer of the company he has the responsibility to try to move the market. Just the facts TM.

There was a poll of OEM executives which shows a much lower confidence in EV takeover by 2030, however that is based on interest rates rising, not the technology.

edit - November 10th - found this article - may be informative...

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/

by TravelinMan Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 9:16

Trapper Gus wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:The CEO of Toyota, the second largest automotive manufacturer in the world, is again cautioning people against the EV hype.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

This comes on the heels of previous comments in October for which he took a lot of criticism.

https://fortune.com/2022/10/02/toyota-ceo-electric-vehicles-hype-department-store-of-powertrains/

Cynics will suggest this is because Toyota has bet heavily on hydrogen power, but I suspect he's also echoing a silent majority.

Not cynical to point out that Toyota is way behind on EV's, and that as an officer of the company he has the responsibility to try to move the market. Just the facts TM.

There was a poll of OEM executives which shows a much lower confidence in EV takeover by 2030, however that is based on interest rates rising, not the technology.

My apologies. Perhaps "cynic" was a poor choice of term. "Those with an opposing view point who wish to dismiss his claims" perhaps?

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 9:33

TravelinMan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Not cynical to point out that Toyota is way behind on EV's, and that as an officer of the company he has the responsibility to try to move the market. Just the facts TM.

There was a poll of OEM executives which shows a much lower confidence in EV takeover by 2030, however that is based on interest rates rising, not the technology.

My apologies. Perhaps "cynic" was a poor choice of term. "Those with an opposing view point who wish to dismiss his claims" perhaps?

Toyota is fighting for time, and without looking at their financial records what their sunk cost exposure to ICE technologies is unknown. However, they are doing what they must do to try to protect their company.

H2 technology has the issue of dealing with the lightest and smallest atoms, which in gas form are hard to keep inside of pipes, since it will diffuse through the pipe material and the joints are a big issue. Also steel exposed to H2, over time, becomes embrittled.

Just saying that Toyota's alternate technology has a bunch of development needed also.

by TravelinMan Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 9:44

Trapper Gus wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:

My apologies. Perhaps "cynic" was a poor choice of term. "Those with an opposing view point who wish to dismiss his claims" perhaps?

Toyota is fighting for time, and without looking at their financial records what their sunk cost exposure to ICE technologies is unknown. However, they are doing what they must do to try to protect their company.

H2 technology has the issue of dealing with the lightest and smallest atoms, which in gas form are hard to keep inside of pipes, since it will diffuse through the pipe material and the joints are a big issue. Also steel exposed to H2, over time, becomes embrittled.

Just saying that Toyota's alternate technology has a bunch of development needed also.

All technologies, ICE, hydrogen, EV, or anything else you can power a vehicle with - they all have their issues. That's why I think these government mandates about sales are idiotic. Let the people choose the tool that best suits them and their needs.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 9:52

TravelinMan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Toyota is fighting for time, and without looking at their financial records what their sunk cost exposure to ICE technologies is unknown. However, they are doing what they must do to try to protect their company.

H2 technology has the issue of dealing with the lightest and smallest atoms, which in gas form are hard to keep inside of pipes, since it will diffuse through the pipe material and the joints are a big issue. Also steel exposed to H2, over time, becomes embrittled.

Just saying that Toyota's alternate technology has a bunch of development needed also.

All technologies, ICE, hydrogen, EV, or anything else you can power a vehicle with - they all have their issues. That's why I think these government mandates about sales are idiotic. Let the people choose the tool that best suits them and their needs.

The States that are doing that are all about the air quality, including CO2 and NOX emissions. Not choosing "winners" & "losers". Bans on ICE sales because of the emissions without choosing the replacement.

Depending on the speed of development of replacement for ICE technologies don't you think the implementation dates will change?

by TravelinMan Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 10:00

Trapper Gus wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:

All technologies, ICE, hydrogen, EV, or anything else you can power a vehicle with - they all have their issues. That's why I think these government mandates about sales are idiotic. Let the people choose the tool that best suits them and their needs.

The States that are doing that are all about the air quality, including CO2 and NOX emissions. Not choosing "winners" & "losers". Bans on ICE sales because of the emissions without choosing the replacement.

Depending on the speed of development of replacement for ICE technologies don't you think the implementation dates will change?

Of course those dates will change. You know it. I know it. They know it. So why the political posturing and grand standing? It's ridiculous.

Denver is a fun example. Terrible air quality. And trust me, I love clean air. But telling folks west or north of the front range that they need to run an EV? That's just not even close to practical. Probably the same in parts of Texas and the southwest, or really, anywhere west of the Mississippi and east of Sacramento.

by AvgMSUJoe Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 10:17

Govt incentives to push economies of scale are the only tools available to make the changes a feasible priority.

The scientists have been asking politely since the 70's. Renewable electricity (or just electricity itself... with the fusion news) is infrastructure already built into 99.9% of communities and houses in the country.

And shit, with in the last 2-3 years there have been huge advancements. GM Bolt 250 miles on full charge under $30k... In another 5, who knows where that will be.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 10:18

TravelinMan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

The States that are doing that are all about the air quality, including CO2 and NOX emissions. Not choosing "winners" & "losers". Bans on ICE sales because of the emissions without choosing the replacement.

Depending on the speed of development of replacement for ICE technologies don't you think the implementation dates will change?

Of course those dates will change. You know it. I know it. They know it. So why the political posturing and grand standing? It's ridiculous.

Denver is a fun example. Terrible air quality. And trust me, I love clean air. But telling folks west or north of the front range that they need to run an EV? That's just not even close to practical. Probably the same in parts of Texas and the southwest, or really, anywhere west of the Mississippi and east of Sacramento.

The assumption is that EV's will have the range needed & the charging infrastructure will be in place by those dates. Those will be the controlling factors. This is as disruptive a change as the switch from canals to rail, the switch from rail passenger to air passenger travel, the switch of locomotives from steam & electric to diesel-electric or the switch from steamers to ICE cars.

If the vehicle technologies are not in place the dates will shift. The dates are "motivation" to develop the technologies and infrastructures.

The governmental goal is protection of the commons, in this case the air & the effects of greenhouse gases on the living conditions.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 10:48

Talking about roadblocks to EV's, the cost to Dealers to switch is an issue.

Ford was telling their dealers they could sell EV's or ICE's but not both. Not sure they have switched that.

https://www.autonews.com/dealers/evs-buick-dealers-face-300000-investment?utm_source=dont-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221220&utm_content=hero-headline

by AvgMSUJoe Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 12:32

Trapper Gus wrote:Talking about roadblocks to EV's, the cost to Dealers to switch is an issue.

Ford was telling their dealers they could sell EV's or ICE's but not both. Not sure they have switched that.

https://www.autonews.com/dealers/evs-buick-dealers-face-300000-investment?utm_source=dont-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221220&utm_content=hero-headline

I never heard of a dealership going tits up... In fact, I would venture to guess, for 80% of geographical Michigan, the local car dealer is one of the richest guys in town....

That's why they are passed down through generations and the kids are good Rs protecting their inherited place in the world.

by **Motown Spartan** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 13:58

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:Talking about roadblocks to EV's, the cost to Dealers to switch is an issue.

Ford was telling their dealers they could sell EV's or ICE's but not both. Not sure they have switched that.

https://www.autonews.com/dealers/evs-buick-dealers-face-300000-investment?utm_source=dont-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221220&utm_content=hero-headline
I never heard of a dealership going tits up... In fact, I would venture to guess, for 80% of geographical Michigan, the local car dealer is one of the richest guys in town....

That's why they are passed down through generations and the kids are good Rs protecting their inherited place in the world.

I remember when GM and Chrysler were taking bailout money there were a handful of dealerships that had to close up shop. But those were extenuating circumstances.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 21 Dec 2022 - 18:01

Motown Spartan wrote:
AvgMSUJoe wrote:
I never heard of a dealership going tits up... In fact, I would venture to guess, for 80% of geographical Michigan, the local car dealer is one of the richest guys in town....

That's why they are passed down through generations and the kids are good Rs protecting their inherited place in the world.

I remember when GM and Chrysler were taking bailout money there were a handful of dealerships that had to close up shop. But those were extenuating circumstances.

More than a handful.

In fact, a major factor in passing the bailout in Congress was when the Senators & Congresspeople found out how many would be going out of business in their districts if they didn't pass the bailout.

by **Trapper Gus** Sun 25 Dec 2022 - 20:18

RQA wrote:Due to the high cost of making EVs thousands of American workers will be losing their jobs.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/automaker-stellantis-lays-off-hundreds-american-workers-blaming-high-cost-making-electric-cars

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/22/stellantis-laying-off-workers-scapegoating-electric-vehicles-come-on-stellantis/

by RQA Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 8:53

Trapper Gus wrote:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/22/stellantis-laying-off-workers-scapegoating-electric-vehicles-come-on-stellantis/

Interesting link Trapper.

Trashes the UAW and praises Tesla.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 9:07

RQA wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/22/stellantis-laying-off-workers-scapegoating-electric-vehicles-come-on-stellantis/

Interesting link Trapper.

Trashes the UAW and praises Tesla.

There are a bunch of EV enthusiasts who are blind to what an asshole Musk is and how he is part of the cohort of union haters who has destroyed the middle class in the US.

However, to your post on this, Stellantis has been all over the map with their excuses on shutting down Cherrokee production and their plans for that plant. It is very clear that it is not due to needing money for EV development. Dropping sales numbers for an older design of vehicle seems like the basic reason.

Many in the industry see that Tesla is losing some of its luster and will be facing real competition over the next 5 years.

by RQA Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 9:21

Trapper Gus wrote: and how he is part of the cohort of union haters who has destroyed the middle class in the US.

Does this include your friend Bob who recently bought a nonunion made car assembled in a right-to-work state?

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 9:33

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:Talking about roadblocks to EV's, the cost to Dealers to switch is an issue.

Ford was telling their dealers they could sell EV's or ICE's but not both. Not sure they have switched that.

https://www.autonews.com/dealers/evs-buick-dealers-face-300000-investment?utm_source=dont-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221220&utm_content=hero-headline
I never heard of a dealership going tits up... In fact, I would venture to guess, for 80% of geographical Michigan, the local car dealer is one of the richest guys in town....

That's why they are passed down through generations and the kids are good Rs protecting their inherited place in the world.

There were at least two in small towns nearby which were axed during the 2009 bloodbath.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 9:36

RQA wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote: and how he is part of the cohort of union haters who has destroyed the middle class in the US.

Does this include your friend Bob who recently bought a nonunion made car assembled in a right-to-work state?

Most people are totally oblivious to which vehicles are assembled with union labor, and with the fragmentation of vertical integration how many of the suppliers who actually have more hours of labor in the assembly of the components are union or non-union is a factor some will ignore.

Was the steel created in a union or non-union plant, as a basic example? Were the mines where the raw material for the steel was mined union or non-union. Are the power plants where the power to run the assembly plant union or non-union, and on and on regarding labor hours that are direct labor to create the vehicle.

Totally agree with you that 100% of the US labor force should be unionized, so there, we agree on something. Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates 969504605

Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates 969504605

/s

Also agree that the Democratic Party lost its way starting with President Carter and big-time during President Clinton regarding their embracing of the failed idea that "markets' create the best outcomes in all cases. Luckily President Biden understands this is wrong.

by AvgMSUJoe Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 16:28

The pendulum is swinging back.

by **GRR Spartan** Mon 26 Dec 2022 - 20:33

But you won’t see the RussianQuislingAgent buying a Tesla, moving to Florida or Texas because he’s a troll whose only agenda is to stir the pot.

Tesla is doing so well they are cutting prices while their products are getting skewered and the allegedly brilliant Musk is cutting prices $7500 on Model3 and Model Y if they are purchased from inventory.

That’s not a move made by companies that have more demand than cars.

PS. Tesla fit and finish is wretched while Hyundai, Kia and even GM are all producing cars that look like they’re assembled by people who have done it for years.

More interesting is Toyota CEO Toyoda is saying there’s a “silent majority” that don’t see EV’s future as a dominant player. However, given Toyota’s betting on hydrogen.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue 27 Dec 2022 - 8:37

GRR Spartan wrote:But you won’t see the RussianQuislingAgent buying a Tesla, moving to Florida or Texas because he’s a troll whose only agenda is to stir the pot.

Tesla is doing so well they are cutting prices while their products are getting skewered and the allegedly brilliant Musk is cutting prices $7500 on Model3 and Model Y if they are purchased from inventory.

That’s not a move made by companies that have more demand than cars.

PS. Tesla fit and finish is wretched while Hyundai, Kia and even GM are all producing cars that look like they’re assembled by people who have done it for years.

More interesting is Toyota CEO Toyoda is saying there’s a “silent majority” that don’t see EV’s future as a dominant player. However, given Toyota’s betting on hydrogen.

Toyota has been talking like a company that is behind the curve on EV development for a couple of years now.

A couple of things are causing the switch the EV's much faster than expected. China is now the largest automotive market in the world, its market is more urban, and since cars are a "new thing" there for many of its people there is no resistance to EV's. The EU and its switch to EV's due to green house concerns also has a big effect.

Until the charging infrastructure is built in the US, until charging can be done as fast as filling a gas tank & until vehicles can designed with the range of ICE's there will be a group of people in the US who will be pooh-poohing. All of these issues are now technically solvable, so it is no longer pie-in-the-sky stuff, just the time for it to happen.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue 27 Dec 2022 - 11:05

Came across this ...

https://www.autonews.com/ces/evs-occupy-pole-position-heading-ces?utm_source=dont-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20221227&utm_content=hero-headline

by **Floyd Robertson** Tue 27 Dec 2022 - 18:44

Tesla stock has dropped 42% in December. I guess buyers don't like his more outwardly MAGA politics and Twitter-monkeying.

by Pervis Muldoon Tue 27 Dec 2022 - 20:32

Floyd Robertson wrote:Tesla stock has dropped 42% in December. I guess buyers don't like his more outwardly MAGA politics and Twitter-monkeying.

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

by RQA Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 8:51

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:Tesla stock has dropped 42% in December. I guess buyers don't like his more outwardly MAGA politics and Twitter-monkeying.

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 8:52

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

Please tell me you were aware that is the motivation for some, but not all.

by RQA Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 9:35

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

And now NOT buy a Tesla is virtue signaling. Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates 1966794946

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 9:42

RQA wrote:
RQA wrote:

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

And now NOT buy a Tesla is virtue signaling.

That is how early adapters work.

Musk is digging his own grave on this, plus Tesla, which has always had shitty craftsmanship compared to any typical OEM produced vehicle, and EV's are not the latest thing anymore. There are dozens of comparable EV choices which don't have Tesla baggage.

If Musk had kept his "superpower" innovator status it would have taken longer, but the automotive OEM's EV's were always going to eat into his market share.

by **NigelUno** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 9:47

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

Odd business plan, right?

Which business do you think is more important to Musk? Twitter or Tesla?

And is it weird that you love him OWNING THE LIBS on Twitter, while Tesla has its worst month, quarter, and year?

(That last one is kinda rhetorical.)

by RQA Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 11:43

NigelUno wrote:
RQA wrote:

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

Odd business plan, right?

Which business do you think is more important to Musk? Twitter or Tesla?

And is it weird that you love him OWNING THE LIBS on Twitter, while Tesla has its worst month, quarter, and year?

(That last one is kinda rhetorical.)

Buying a Tesla as virtue signaling or not buying a Tesla as virtue signaling appears to be a leftist consumer policy not the business plan of Tesla.

I don't know which company is more important to Musk. My guess would be Twitter. I don't think the money matters that much to him. He doesn't have the trappings around him that most billionaires do. In that regard he is more like Warren Buffett than Jeff Bezos. I think Musk genuinely believes that he is finding for free speech and against government-tech corruption.

I do enjoy Musk's tweets. In terms of Tesla, the stock was always vastly overvalued which is why I never invested in it. It was valued more like a tech company than an actual auto company. Despite the Biden bear market and the increased number of available shares (Musk selling) the stock is still valued much higher than traditional autos. Given the drop I am tempted to buy in at this price point. Certainly a distressed stock. A distressed company? Not so much.

by **NigelUno** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 11:48

RQA wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Odd business plan, right?

Which business do you think is more important to Musk? Twitter or Tesla?

And is it weird that you love him OWNING THE LIBS on Twitter, while Tesla has its worst month, quarter, and year?

(That last one is kinda rhetorical.)

Buying a Tesla as virtue signaling or not buying a Tesla as virtue signaling appears to be a leftist consumer policy not the business plan of Tesla.

I don't know which company is more important to Musk. My guess would be Twitter. I don't think the money matters that much to him. He doesn't have the trappings around him that most billionaires do. In that regard he is more like Warren Buffett than Jeff Bezos. I think Musk genuinely believes that he is finding for free speech and against government-tech corruption.

I do enjoy Musk's tweets. In terms of Tesla, the stock was always vastly overvalued which is why I never invested in it. It was valued more like a tech company than an actual auto company. Despite the Biden bear market and the increased number of available shares (Musk selling) the stock is still valued much higher than traditional autos. Given the drop I am tempted to buy in at this price point. Certainly a distressed stock. A distressed company? Not so much.

Your guess would be wrong. He's not quitting Tesla to focus on Twitter.

by **GRR Spartan** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 15:58

Musk’s Twitter shareholders will be nudging him out of the company he bought a year from now if not sooner.

At the end of the day the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund doesn’t want or need Musk leading Twitter and watch their $1.9B investment lose value.

Saudi’s are also playing the long game investing over $900B in Lucid’s $1.5B latest round of equity fund raising on Dec19.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 16:02

Musk has said he wants out of twitter

by RQA Wed 28 Dec 2022 - 23:01

GRR Spartan wrote:

At the end of the day the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund doesn’t want or need Musk leading Twitter and watch their $1.9B investment lose value.

The $2 billion dollar stakeholders aren't going to have much say in a company taken private for $44 billion.

by Pervis Muldoon Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 10:43

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Developing a public persona that only appeals to a group of people who are anti-EV may not be a smart move.

So buying a Tesla really was virtue signaling all along.

Let's check. First, I'll have make sure I have the definition of this trendy pet phrase of yours:

vir·tue sig·nal·ing
noun DEROGATORY
the public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

I don't see how buying a Tesla meets the requirements of the definition. I did find something that fits perfectly...

RQA wrote:My conviction is clear - abortion is immoral.

Sometimes you make this too easy.

by RQA Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 13:11

Pervis Muldoon wrote:

RQA wrote:My conviction is clear - abortion is immoral.

Sometimes you make this too easy.

I have always felt that sticking a suction tube through the foramen ovale of a fully developed in utero baby and sucking its brains out is immoral.

Buying a Tesla? Seems to depend on the leftist politics of the month.

by **NigelUno** Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 13:16

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Sometimes you make this too easy.

I have always felt that sticking a suction tube through the foramen ovale of a fully developed in utero baby and sucking its brains out is immoral.

Buying a Tesla? Seems to depend on the leftist politics of the month.

Weird. Were you always a big Twitter supporter, or just when your boy bought it and you tried to sell him as some free speech absolutist? Which was obviously a crock of shit.

by RQA Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 13:58

NigelUno wrote:

Weird. Were you always a big Twitter supporter, or just when your boy bought it and you tried to sell him as some free speech absolutist? Which was obviously a crock of shit.

What is a Twitter "supporter"? I have been a long time Twitter user. Generally follow sports related people and accounts. Some politics, celebrities and science. Twitter is better since the Musk purchase. Serious posters like Jordan Peterson from the conservative side are back. Not seeing any of the "hate" and "Nazis" that leftists claim have overrun the place.

Again, if you mean by "free speech absolutist" that people should be allowed to say whatever they want whenever they want then I am not that and really don't know anyone that is.

by **NigelUno** Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 14:07

RQA wrote:
NigelUno wrote:

Weird. Were you always a big Twitter supporter, or just when your boy bought it and you tried to sell him as some free speech absolutist? Which was obviously a crock of shit.

What is a Twitter "supporter"? I have been a long time Twitter user. Generally follow sports related people and accounts. Some politics, celebrities and science. Twitter is better since the Musk purchase. Serious posters like Jordan Peterson from the conservative side are back. Not seeing any of the "hate" and "Nazis" that leftists claim have overrun the place.

Again, if you mean by "free speech absolutist" that people should be allowed to say whatever they want whenever they want then I am not that and really don't know anyone that is.

YOU touted Musk as a free speech absolutist. Now you're backtracking by deflecting. It's cute. No real harm. We all know you're a phony.

by Pervis Muldoon Thu 29 Dec 2022 - 15:23

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Sometimes you make this too easy.

I have always felt that sticking a suction tube through the foramen ovale of a fully developed in utero baby and sucking its brains out is immoral.

Buying a Tesla? Seems to depend on the leftist politics of the month.

You're still virtue signaling? If you really cared about "in utero babies", you could've come up with some ways you'd be able to help stop abortions other than telling the big ol' gubmint to make it illegal. But you came up with nothing.

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