Re: Israel war

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-08, 10:15

Motown Spartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine

For those posters, like Zorn, who are ignorant regarding how "Israel" (Really Palestine by historical thinking) came about.

To be fair, Israel existed long before Palestine.

Not sure of the truth value of that statement, maybe about 10%?

The region was among the earliest in the world to see human habitation, agricultural communities and civilization. In the Bronze Age, the Canaanites established independent city-states that were influenced by the surrounding civilizations, among them Egypt, which ruled the area in the Late Bronze Age.

During the Iron Age, two related Israelite kingdoms, Israel and Judah, controlled much of Palestine, while the Philistines occupied its southern coast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

From this it doesn't appear that Israel, historical, who of course was a (mythical) person, not a people, has any better a claim to this geography than the Palestine people.

by **Motown Spartan** 2024-01-08, 11:49

Trapper Gus wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

To be fair, Israel existed long before Palestine.

Not sure of the truth value of that statement, maybe about 10%?

The region was among the earliest in the world to see human habitation, agricultural communities and civilization. In the Bronze Age, the Canaanites established independent city-states that were influenced by the surrounding civilizations, among them Egypt, which ruled the area in the Late Bronze Age.

During the Iron Age, two related Israelite kingdoms, Israel and Judah, controlled much of Palestine, while the Philistines occupied its southern coast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

From this it doesn't appear that Israel, historical, who of course was a (mythical) person, not a people, has any better a claim to this geography than the Palestine people.

Are you saying that Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines?

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-08, 13:14

Motown Spartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Not sure of the truth value of that statement, maybe about 10%?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

From this it doesn't appear that Israel, historical, who of course was a (mythical) person, not a people, has any better a claim to this geography than the Palestine people.

Are you saying that Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines?

The area contained the five cities (the Pentapolis) of the Philistine confederacy (Gaza, Ashkelon [Ascalon], Ashdod, Gath, and Ekron) and was known as Philistia, or the Land of the Philistines. It was from this designation that the whole of the country was later called Palestine by the Greeks.

Probably, it seems likely that all these people are descendents of the Caninates.

Just to make things more complex the God that Israel worshiped was the son of an older God.

by **steveschneider** 2024-01-08, 17:33

Some pieces of shit interrupted Joe at Charleston at Mother Emmanuel Church where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers. Just disgusting.

by AvgMSUJoe 2024-01-08, 18:51

steveschneider wrote:Some pieces of shit interrupted Joe at Charleston at Mother Emmanuel Church where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers. Just disgusting.

Gaza is the new cross the uber-progressives feel like they can crucify themselves on.

It's a subject no self-respecting person would totally disagree with them on, so they feel like they are ok to throw an inappropriate public fit.

Try it at the next trump rally.

by AvgMSUJoe 2024-01-09, 10:56

Cameron, would it be wrong for me to equate Witmer's declaration of "Wolverine Day" as a simile to Biden's support for an Israel who is taking it too far?

Under normal circumstances I would NEVER vote for any one who would do either... But here we are.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-09, 11:56

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Cameron, would it be wrong for me to equate Witmer's declaration of "Wolverine Day" as a simile to Biden's support for an Israel who is taking it too far?

Under normal circumstances I would NEVER vote for any one who would do either... But here we are.

Yes, it would be wrong for you to equate those two things.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-11, 20:45

Trapper Gus wrote:

From the beginning of the Hamas-Israel war, the Biden administration has been very clear that its first goal was to make sure the conflict didn’t spread

Biden has been doing a good job on this, so far.

Cameron wrote:No, he hasn't.

Bump.

by **InTenSity** 2024-01-11, 21:15

What's the answer Cam?

by **Cameron** 2024-01-11, 22:14

Ceasefire.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-12, 06:41

Biden et al are working on it...

Old joke that applies...

How many mental health professionals does it take to change a light bulb?

One, but the light bulb has to want to change.

by Zurn 2024-01-12, 09:35

Nothing really changes. In 1960 leftists condemned Israel for kidnapping Adolf Eichmann and bringing him to Israel for trial.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/give-yahya-sinwar-the-eichmann-treatment-public-trial-bring-atrocities-to-light-e12cc74f?mod=opinion_lead_pos85

by **Cameron** 2024-01-12, 13:49

Trapper Gus wrote:Biden et al are working on it...

Old joke that applies...

How many mental health professionals does it take to change a light bulb?

One, but the light bulb has to want to change.

If the US announced that we would be enforcing a ceasefire, there would be a ceasefire. What the lightbulb wants would be irrelevant.

by **Motown Spartan** 2024-01-12, 16:51

Cameron wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:Biden et al are working on it...

Old joke that applies...

How many mental health professionals does it take to change a light bulb?

One, but the light bulb has to want to change.

If the US announced that we would be enforcing a ceasefire, there would be a ceasefire. What the lightbulb wants would be irrelevant.

I don’t agree with this. If the US announced we would be enforcing a ceasefire, the conflict would decay into a regional quagmire.

by Zurn 2024-01-12, 17:01

Cameron wrote:

If the US announced that we would be enforcing a ceasefire, there would be a ceasefire. What the lightbulb wants would be irrelevant.

How exactly would you have the US "enforce" a ceasefire?

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-12, 18:21

Zurn wrote:Nothing really changes. In 1960 leftists condemned Israel for kidnapping Adolf Eichmann and bringing him to Israel for trial.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/give-yahya-sinwar-the-eichmann-treatment-public-trial-bring-atrocities-to-light-e12cc74f?mod=opinion_lead_pos85

So that is why the Conservatives in Congress are refusing to consider giving Israel any money?

Honestly, refuting your posts is like shooting fish in a barrel.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-12, 18:23

Motown Spartan wrote:
Cameron wrote:

If the US announced that we would be enforcing a ceasefire, there would be a ceasefire. What the lightbulb wants would be irrelevant.

I don’t agree with this. If the US announced we would be enforcing a ceasefire, the conflict would decay into a regional quagmire.

Not seeing how the US would enforce a cease fire without landing about 500k troops in Israel.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-12, 18:41

They can't keep bombing if we don't keep sending them bombs.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-12, 18:52

Cameron wrote:They can't keep bombing if we don't keep sending them bombs.

You think they get all their bombs from the US?

They are a nuclear power, aka meaning they have atomic bombs.

Pretty sure they can make their own bombs.

by Zurn 2024-01-13, 12:20

Trapper Gus wrote:

So that is why the Conservatives in Congress are refusing to consider giving Israel any money?

Honestly, refuting your posts is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Bernie Sanders is a conservative? Good to know.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-13, 14:05

Zurn wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

So that is why the Conservatives in Congress are refusing to consider giving Israel any money?

Honestly, refuting your posts is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Bernie Sanders is a conservative? Good to know.

No and he isn't the one holding up the money for Israel & Ukraine.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-13, 14:58

Trapper Gus wrote:
Cameron wrote:They can't keep bombing if we don't keep sending them bombs.

You think they get all their bombs from the US?

They are a nuclear power, aka meaning they have atomic bombs.

Pretty sure they can make their own bombs.

I never said they get ALL their bombs from the US.

Charted: U.S. has provided Israel with more than 70,000 weapons since 1950

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military financing, with most of that aid coming in the form of weapons grants. "I think it's a safe assumption to say that U.S. weapons are being used extensively in the current Israeli operations in Gaza," Elias Yousif, a U.S. arms transfer expert at the Stimson Center, told Time earlier this month.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-13, 18:24

Cameron wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

You think they get all their bombs from the US?

They are a nuclear power, aka meaning they have atomic bombs.

Pretty sure they can make their own bombs.

I never said they get ALL their bombs from the US.

Charted: U.S. has provided Israel with more than 70,000 weapons since 1950

Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military financing, with most of that aid coming in the form of weapons grants. "I think it's a safe assumption to say that U.S. weapons are being used extensively in the current Israeli operations in Gaza," Elias Yousif, a U.S. arms transfer expert at the Stimson Center, told Time earlier this month.

U.S. support accounts for around 15% of Israel's annual defense budget,

Nice charts, however as the article says that is 15% of Israel's defense budget, so the other 85% is from elsewhere, and likely most of that is Israel themselves.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2024-01-13, 18:41

If Israel is totally fine on their own to keep murdering people without us, then we should indeed stop sending them bombs and support. Like you said, they don’t need it so why send anything at all

by **Cameron** 2024-01-13, 19:45

Trapper Gus wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I never said they get ALL their bombs from the US.

Charted: U.S. has provided Israel with more than 70,000 weapons since 1950

U.S. support accounts for around 15% of Israel's annual defense budget,

Nice charts, however as the article says that is 15% of Israel's defense budget, so the other 85% is from elsewhere, and likely most of that is Israel themselves.

If we stopped all weapons and money to Israel and told them they were on their own, and also sanctioned them like we do other regimes that commit human rights violations, they'd either stop or we'd at least have a moral leg to stand on.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2024-01-13, 19:53

I know that I regularly talk about The Hague not stopping me when I’m not doing war crimes it’s just a normal way to speak

[tw]1746277892491727341[/tw]

by **DWags** 2024-01-13, 19:57

An I ask a legit question here? Is religion or ethnicity coloring anyone’s feelings regarding this?

I’m at the point where I can’t stand to hear the tragedies and travesties. Honestly I was going to make Italian peppers, onions, potatoes, and sausage today for my wife and one of my daughters. I go to the store and I’m picking through the potatoes. I didn’t like the potatoes at my local Kroger store. And then it stopped me right in my tracks. How many people there would kill for one of these potatoes that I am not placing in my basket? It made me sick to my stomach.

If any of us ever forget how fortunate we are, because we were born in latitude and latitude that allows us to be arrogant, that person should go to hell.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-13, 20:35

I'm not an expert on Israel or mid-east conflicts, however I'm dumb enought to suppose that there is more to this than just the murder of thousands of people in Israel & Palestine.

As for US supplied arms, the US is the top supplier of arms to the world. That 15% goes from the US Treasury to Israel's account, probably at some big US Bank, and then to the US companies who make those arms using US labor. A political give away to some states & House districts...

Ike warned us about the military industrial complex, but his warning was about 15 years too late.

We, the US, are the one nation trying to keep the other 200 nations from having wars that will grind global trade to a halt, and much of that trade travels right by all these countries that are lobbing missles at each other.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-14, 08:23

President Biden and other senior U.S. officials are becoming increasingly frustrated with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his rejection of most of the administration's recent requests related to the war in Gaza, four U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios.

Why it matters: Since the Oct. 7 Hamas attack 100 days ago, Biden has given Israel his full backing, with unprecedented military and diplomatic support, even while taking a political hit from part of his base in an election year. That support has largely continued publicly, but behind the scenes, there are growing signs that Biden is losing his patience, the U.S. officials said.

"The situation sucks and we are stuck. The president's patience is running out," one U.S. official told Axios.
"At every juncture, Netanyahu has given Biden the finger," Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.), who has been in close contact with U.S. officials about the war, told Axios. "They are pleading with the Netanyahu coalition, but getting slapped in the face over and over again."

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/14/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-tensions

Netanyahu and the war mongering "one state, no Palestine" Israelites are screwing the pouch as far as Biden is concerned. Netanyahu, Trump & Putin are "birds of a feather".

by **Cameron** 2024-01-14, 10:32

Trapper Gus wrote:
President Biden and other senior U.S. officials are becoming increasingly frustrated with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his rejection of most of the administration's recent requests related to the war in Gaza, four U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios.

Why it matters: Since the Oct. 7 Hamas attack 100 days ago, Biden has given Israel his full backing, with unprecedented military and diplomatic support, even while taking a political hit from part of his base in an election year. That support has largely continued publicly, but behind the scenes, there are growing signs that Biden is losing his patience, the U.S. officials said.

"The situation sucks and we are stuck. The president's patience is running out," one U.S. official told Axios.
"At every juncture, Netanyahu has given Biden the finger," Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.), who has been in close contact with U.S. officials about the war, told Axios. "They are pleading with the Netanyahu coalition, but getting slapped in the face over and over again."

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/14/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-tensions

Netanyahu and the war mongering "one state, no Palestine" Israelites are screwing the pouch as far as Biden is concerned. Netanyahu, Trump & Putin are "birds of a feather".

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-14, 11:19

Cameron wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/14/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-tensions

Netanyahu and the war mongering "one state, no Palestine" Israelites are screwing the pouch as far as Biden is concerned. Netanyahu, Trump & Putin are "birds of a feather".

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

I'm beginning to believe that you have never played Diplomacy or any other board game where you negotiated with other players...

by **steveschneider** 2024-01-14, 11:39

Trapper Gus wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

I'm beginning to believe that you have never played Diplomacy or any other board game where you negotiated with other players...

lol!

by **steveschneider** 2024-01-14, 11:42

Cameron wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

https://www.axios.com/2024/01/14/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-tensions

Netanyahu and the war mongering "one state, no Palestine" Israelites are screwing the pouch as far as Biden is concerned. Netanyahu, Trump & Putin are "birds of a feather".

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

How about Hamas surrenders their weapons? They want peace put down the weapons and get to the table. They won’t because they want to annihilate Israel. October 7th was the last straw. Anyone tries to harm Israel they will be shown no mercy.

by AvgMSUJoe 2024-01-14, 14:03

This is not new.

I get why Biden has to support (would he shit on England or Canada if theywere attacked?), I get why he's irritated.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-14, 17:03

Trapper Gus wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

I'm beginning to believe that you have never played Diplomacy or any other board game where you negotiated with other players...

I know enough about negotiation to know that when you are told to pound sand at every turn, maybe it's time to start using some of your available leverage.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-14, 17:07

steveschneider wrote:
Cameron wrote:

Then maybe Biden should stop sending him munitions, vetoing UN resolutions, and calling himself a Zionist. Otherwise, people might start to get the wrong idea.

How about Hamas surrenders their weapons? They want peace put down the weapons and get to the table. They won’t because they want to annihilate Israel. October 7th was the last straw. Anyone tries to harm Israel they will be shown no mercy.

I know saying "No Mercy!" and flexing feels cool when you're rooting on your football team. In actual real life, mercy is one of the most admirable human qualities. Stick to sports talk with your hot takes, shithead.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-14, 17:46

Cameron wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm beginning to believe that you have never played Diplomacy or any other board game where you negotiated with other players...

I know enough about negotiation to know that when you are told to pound sand at every turn, maybe it's time to start using some of your available leverage.

US Corporations selling to Israel 15% of the arms used by Israel is not a huge negotiating hammer. The US has an interest in having a seat at the table, even if Netanyahu's goal is the genocide of all Palestinians. Biden also has to consider the politics of pissing those US corporations off...it's complicated.

Reading the articles that I linked it seems they are suggesting that Biden is building a larger coalition of middle eastern, and other places, countries to create a box in which Netanyahu will be unable to continue his war crimes, via a coalition of the willing to tie Israel into a economic agreement in which the two state solution will be Israel's only real option.

by **Cameron** 2024-01-14, 18:05

Still doesn't explain why he keeps ramming weapons packages through, or why we've vetoed virtually every significant UN resolution. Take the fucking blinders off, Trap.

by **steveschneider** 2024-01-15, 07:17

Cameron wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

How about Hamas surrenders their weapons? They want peace put down the weapons and get to the table. They won’t because they want to annihilate Israel. October 7th was the last straw. Anyone tries to harm Israel they will be shown no mercy.

I know saying "No Mercy!" and flexing feels cool when you're rooting on your football team. In actual real life, mercy is one of the most admirable human qualities. Stick to sports talk with your hot takes, shithead.

Do a Mitzvah for Israel! And tell your far left goons to stop chanting ‘from the river to the sea’.

by **Trapper Gus** 2024-01-15, 08:09

Cameron wrote:Still doesn't explain why he keeps ramming weapons packages through, or why we've vetoed virtually every significant UN resolution. Take the fucking blinders off, Trap.

Ramming weapons packages through? None have passed Congress as of yet & somehow Israel & Ukraine were tied together.

He isn't a dictator you know; he has to work with what Congress was willing to do, and with the attack Congress's knee jerk was to provide support for Israel. Ukraine needs help.

Personally, I think the "younger people" in the US are being somewhat played via Putin internet propaganda, but that is just me.

Yes, it sucks that Netanyahu & the anti-two state people in Israel are using this as an excuse to murder people but there is a bigger picture to be considered. No one in the middle east cares about those murdered people other than to use them as an excuse to try to start a war.

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