It's been FOUR fricken years since our last Final Four. Damn It Izzo.

Look I'm sick of this shit. He needs to step up or GTFO

Izzo by comparison to other NCAA teams since 1999:



Years between Final Fours:

MSU.Since 1999 1, 1, 1, 4, 1, 5, 4. ?

DUKE.Since 1999 2, 3, 6, 5, 7. ?

Kansas.since 2002 1, 5, 4, 6, 4, ?

Kentucky Since 1998: 13, 1, 2, 3, 7 ?

Uconn since 1999: 5, 7, 3, 9 ?

Now sure, you rational people are going to say that I must be a little snot nosed bitch holding MSU to higher standards than the blue bloods listed. But you know what? I guess I am. It's been four years since MSU has been to a final four. WHAT THE FUCK HAS IZZO DONE FOR US LATELY! I know you guys are thinking has wags lost it. NOPE, sure our stats look way better than those blue bloods, but all i know is our fans patients are not as good and they shouldn't be. We are used to final fours. Not losing to Iowa.

And don't come at me with "but wags, not only are our final four stats better than those blue bloods you've listed since Izzo has been here, but there are years where those blue bloods didn't even make the tournament". Know what I say to that argument? Fuck you, we're MSU and if we aren't in a Final Four this year, Izzo needs to go.

Coaches on my short list:

D. Stephens. Starts there. When we had him, we had better big men

Rick Petino: He still wears a suit, and dyes his hair to look young.

Calipari: He's close to my favorite appetizer

Coach K. Yep, bring eddie Munster back, we'll pay him enough

Shaka Smart: Sure, Izzo beat his ass last year, but he actually jumps out on the court to give his defense a 6 on 5 advantage sometimes.

I'm open to any suggestions. I might give Izzo one more year if he uses the portal. If not, I'm done with the little elf. Go be a grandpa in the U.P and have pasties with Motown.

Now do the last time those teams competed for a conference title.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Now do the last time those teams competed for a conference title.

Conference title. What are you a Purdue fan? Ask them how important that shit is.

Damn it people, we don't need to move the goal posts. Just say you want Izzo gone. I don't need any wafflers in this thread. Either the little elf is here or gone. I'm good with him gone. You have my short list.

But, since conference titles are so important to you, I'm going to let you look it up. I'm thinking with the spread of years and the fact that some hyears those teams didn't even make the tournament, MSU fairs pretty well.

I didn't know that you cherrished them so much.

last natty:

MSU: 2000
Duke: 2015
Kansas: 2022
Kentucky: 2012
Uconn:2023

last final 4

MSU: 2019
Duke: 2022
Kansas: 2022
Kentucky: 2015
Uconn: 2023

last reg season conference title:

MSU: 2020
Duke: 2022
Kansas: 2023
Kentucky: 2020
Uconn: 2005

Someone else can look at conference play records, but .500 is fine with some so maybe don't have to

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:last conference title.


Uconn: 2005

Someone else can look at conference play records, but .500 is fine with some so maybe don't have to

WTF?   I can't believe you have conference titles as more important.  I'm thinking they disagree with you.  But whatever, you want izzo gone. Cool. You and me both.  You have my list.

DWags wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Now do the last time those teams competed for a conference title.

Conference title. What are you a Purdue fan? Ask them how important that shit is.

Damn it people, we don't need to move the goal posts. Just say you want Izzo gone. I don't need any wafflers in this thread. Either the little elf is here or gone. I'm good with him gone. You have my short list.

But, since conference titles are so important to you, I'm going to let you look it up. I'm thinking with the spread of years and the fact that some hyears those teams didn't even make the tournament, MSU fairs pretty well.

I didn't know that you cherrished them so much.

I think Purdue was Big Ten Champs last year, and in 2019.

Not sure if that helps.

NigelUno wrote:

DWags wrote:




Conference title. What are you a Purdue fan? Ask them how important that shit is.

Damn it people, we don't need to move the goal posts. Just say you want Izzo gone. I don't need any wafflers in this thread. Either the little elf is here or gone. I'm good with him gone. You have my short list.

But, since conference titles are so important to you, I'm going to let you look it up. I'm thinking with the spread of years and the fact that some hyears those teams didn't even make the tournament, MSU fairs pretty well.

I didn't know that you cherrished them so much.

I think Purdue was Big Ten Champs last year, and in 2019.

Not sure if that helps.

Noted. I guess some fans like conference titles more than the FF runs. I get that.

DWags wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

I think Purdue was Big Ten Champs last year, and in 2019.

Not sure if that helps.

Noted. I guess some fans like conference titles more than the FF runs. I get that.

I like both

Nordic wrote:

DWags wrote:

Noted. I guess some fans like conference titles more than the FF runs. I get that.

I like both

I like all three. 2019 was the greatest year of my life as an MSU alum, father, basketball fan. Was at most of them. Especially beating UofM twice for championships.

In order, and for someone who was there and saw how it effected my kid too here is my order of importance

FF (beating duke was numbing. couldn't think couldn't move, almost pissed myself)

BT Tournament championship. The intensity in Chicago was just crazy. Fights the day before at the Billy Goat between UofM'ers and Spartans. Not me or my wife, but the intensity from the streets to the gym was amazing

Conference. Me and the Tulane toe (Eddy Murray) had a couple tears in our eyes at the brezlin. It was a long drawn out season with ups and downs and our kids were very emotional too.

Experiencing all three in one year, I really thihk in my opinion those are the order of importance. Again, just my opinion.

Has anyone here said they want izzo gone? I’d love a link so I have any clue to what he is rambling about.

I want Izzo to be the coach as long as he wants to. And then ten more years after that.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Has anyone here said they want izzo gone? I’d love a link so I have any clue to what he is rambling about.

It feels a little like DWags is reading Twitter or tRCMB, and then reacting to it on tSwill like it was posted here...

Cameron wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Has anyone here said they want izzo gone? I’d love a link so I have any clue to what he is rambling about.

It feels a little like DWags is reading Twitter or tRCMB, and then reacting to it on tSwill like it was posted here...

That seems to happen and often confuses me.

Dolts have no clue what supporting 96% of college basketball programs feel like...

I was pretty jacked about 1990 Sweet 16.

Cameron wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:Has anyone here said they want izzo gone? I’d love a link so I have any clue to what he is rambling about.

It feels a little like DWags is reading Twitter or tRCMB, and then reacting to it on tSwill like it was posted here...

(Look closer)

DWags. You've had a lot of time on your hands after jumping the woodpile.

You can't control the uncontrollable. Try to relax.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:Dolts have no clue what supporting 96% of college basketball programs feel like...

I was pretty jacked about 1990 Sweet 16.

Dude, I pretty much cried when we beat Georgetown in 86. I simply could not believe we could hang with, let alone beat, fucking Georgetown

NigelUno wrote:

Cameron wrote:

It feels a little like DWags is reading Twitter or tRCMB, and then reacting to it on tSwill like it was posted here...

(Look closer)

I noticed your bump, if that's what you are referring to. Seemed rather tongue-in-cheek to me, but what do I know?

Cameron wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

(Look closer)

I noticed your bump, if that's what you are referring to. Seemed rather tongue-in-cheek to me, but what do I know?

Not much if you are responding to Nigel

Dwags have you considered that you might be taking criticism of a public figure that you like a bit too personally

Cameron wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

(Look closer)

I noticed your bump, if that's what you are referring to. Seemed rather tongue-in-cheek to me, but what do I know?

So you do get sarcasm?   Right on.  

Honestly, I had a lot of time on my hands  but I have not been on that other board and I won’t go to it.  Way too much negative energy. I’ve got to the point in my life where you know the people who have negative energy, and the people who don’t   Remember Tan Fan and Vlad?  Board feels bad about a loss, so why not pile on.  There’s nothing wrong with criticism, but it’s the same people over and over and over, after a loss, can’t talk, Basketball, but must criticize vehemently.

In the next breath, they say they don’t really care much about athletics   I’ve learned that they care, by far, the most about MSU winning or losing  


However, sitting around today, (I have a ton of time) I wanted to find out, how long most of the great programs had in between final fours. It really shocked me.   Izzo has spoiled us.    It’s amazing some of the gap years.    But we still look at those coaches as amazing coaches, and their programs as amazing programs.   And then it struck me.., I guarantee you that they also have those fans that bring the negative energy after each loss instead of discussion  .  We aren’t any different.

It was stunning   no way that I think some of these programs had seven years nine years 11 years in between final fours.   we might be on a seven or an eight or a nine year or more gap right now  .   Appreciate what we had and what we’ve been able to enjoy..  

Or we can just say  something real negative about Izzo instead of discussing what it might take  to get back to one.  


Pointing out someone bringing negative energy is probably a fault that I have   But now that I’m in my 60s, I don’t really give a shit about saying it

It’s ok to say this team is extremely average and not lived up to expectations. I blame the coach and the players.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Dwags have you considered that you might be taking criticism of a public figure that you like a bit too personally

Criticism? Nah. I do it myself. Have you ever thought about how much you really personally need MSU to win basketball games? I have reflected on it, and I will back off when you need to vent from now on . I apologize. You have the right to vent. I know how much MSU basketball means to you. Right on.

kingstonlake wrote:It’s ok to say this team is extremely average and not lived up to expectations. I blame the coach and the players.

I thought it was Pervis fault.

DWags wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:It’s ok to say this team is extremely average and not lived up to expectations. I blame the coach and the players.

I thought it was Pervis fault.

MSU basketball has been making some really solid posters look bad at starting game threads. Cannot be tolerated.

I think there’s fear of the unknown. It’s scary to see some one as great and brilliant as Tom Izzo struggling at what he’s done so well for so long. I’ve seen a lot of stages of grief lately, and it’s okay. Don’t hold back those feelings and let’s all support each other. .

These things aren't automatic, you make a play and you use the pieces.
The guy that has delivered 8 final fours to a program that was at best mediocre (less one of the best players to ever play the game).
And he did it recently, beating "the best player/team in college basketball history".
God forbid, after getting one of the best crootin classes of his tenure this season, it isnt playing out like how all of the BEST teams in the country who built their teams completely through free agency (like colorado football and michigan).
Shit, whining just makes no sense. We'll see where this ends.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:These things aren't automatic, you make a play and you use the pieces.
The guy that has delivered 8 final fours to a program that was at best mediocre (less one of the best players to ever play the game).
And he did it recently, beating "the best player/team in college basketball history".
God forbid, after getting one of the best crootin classes of his tenure this season, it isnt playing out like how all of the BEST teams in the country who built their teams completely through free agency (like colorado football and michigan).
Shit, whining just makes no sense. We'll see where this ends.

See, I'm all for respecting the greatness that is Tom Izzo, and he can go out on his own terms and when... he's earned that.. but to act like this is some sort of one season miss is just being disingenuous. It's a trend at this point, and that's fine, that's usually what happens to coaches at the end of tenures.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

AvgMSUJoe wrote:These things aren't automatic, you make a play and you use the pieces.
The guy that has delivered 8 final fours to a program that was at best mediocre (less one of the best players to ever play the game).
And he did it recently, beating "the best player/team in college basketball history".
God forbid, after getting one of the best crootin classes of his tenure this season, it isnt playing out like how all of the BEST teams in the country who built their teams completely through free agency (like colorado football and michigan).
Shit, whining just makes no sense. We'll see where this ends.

See, I'm all for respecting the greatness that is Tom Izzo, and he can go out on his own terms and when... he's earned that.. but to act like this is some sort of one season miss is just being disingenuous. It's a trend at this point, and that's fine, that's usually what happens to coaches at the end of tenures.

Do you mean by “end of tenures” his skills have diminished? Or just that they walk away?

Dantonio lacked recruiting victories at the end of his. He still could coach. He lacked playmakers.


Izzo landed the # 3 class last year and I think he has the #7 class this year. So I don’t think he’s lost that energy.

I’m guessing you mean he doesn’t see the game as clearly, if you even mean any of that.

Or do you simply mean he’s near the end of his tenure.

Izzo is responsible for my emotional investment in MSU basketball like no other person in sports. I will always care to some degree, but the many great moments he's given us have been even more impactful because of who he is.

The small moments have been memorable, too. Adreian Payne on the floor fighting for a loose ball, and Izzo jumping on him in a huge embrace when he came to the bench because that's what he'd wanted to see from Payne. Matt Costello picking Izzo up and spinning him around on Costello's senior day. Alex Gauna giving a poor effort in transition and the TV camera catching Izzo mocking him with an exaggerated lumbering walk. Izzo dramatically falling to his knees in anguish at the scorer's table when Marvin Clark made a free throw he was supposed to intentionally miss. Izzo consoling Kentucky's Chuck Hayes after that crazy game in the 2005 tournament. All of the images of Izzo with his arm around a player on the sidelines.

I'm 100% bought in for life in the Izzo program. The victories are better because of him. So when a petulant fan who doesn't know basketball makes a silly "the game has passed him by" or "twenty-year-old sets" comment, I will find out where they live, sneak in their house late at night and rearrange their silverware drawer.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

AvgMSUJoe wrote:These things aren't automatic, you make a play and you use the pieces.
The guy that has delivered 8 final fours to a program that was at best mediocre (less one of the best players to ever play the game).
And he did it recently, beating "the best player/team in college basketball history".
God forbid, after getting one of the best crootin classes of his tenure this season, it isnt playing out like how all of the BEST teams in the country who built their teams completely through free agency (like colorado football and michigan).
Shit, whining just makes no sense. We'll see where this ends.

See, I'm all for respecting the greatness that is Tom Izzo, and he can go out on his own terms and when... he's earned that.. but to act like this is some sort of one season miss is just being disingenuous. It's a trend at this point, and that's fine, that's usually what happens to coaches at the end of tenures.

Doesn't the thread title alone refute that this a trend? I think it does. F4s are hard to make. And the 2020 team was well on the way to another. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but that was a helluva team peaking at the right time. I wouldn't consider that team part of a bad trend.

FTR, yeah I think Izzo has lost a step. Of course he has. He's 69 years old fergodssake. I think he has lost some of his grit and toughness. Part of that is also just the trend of the times and other teams catching up on the toughness part. Goddam do I miss the days when we'd auto out rebound teams by double digits. I'll still take Izzo on the my bench.

DWags wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

See, I'm all for respecting the greatness that is Tom Izzo, and he can go out on his own terms and when... he's earned that.. but to act like this is some sort of one season miss is just being disingenuous. It's a trend at this point, and that's fine, that's usually what happens to coaches at the end of tenures.

Do you mean by “end of tenures” his skills have diminished? Or just that they walk away?

Dantonio lacked recruiting victories at the end of his. He still could coach. He lacked playmakers.


Izzo landed the # 3 class last year and I think he has the #7 class this year. So I don’t think he’s lost that energy.

I’m guessing you mean he doesn’t see the game as clearly, if you even mean any of that.

Or do you simply mean he’s near the end of his tenure.

It seems like he can still recruit, so I'll go with the game evolving and him not keeping up with it. Also not using the portal when every other program is utilizing it and supplementing their rosters when they see gaps (the center position in our case).

Sissoko and Cooper can not be getting minutes on a big ten team in 2024. They can't make a shot outside of an alley oop dunk. The game has gone away from these type of big men.

Projecting Dantonio's failures onto Izzo is flawed.

I do agree, Izzo probably isnt as hard as he used to be, but to be fair, we've seen why that happened too. All the national news stories about him being too hard, certain kids not responding to that type of coaching, the constant crooting a coach has to do now a days.

Nordic wrote:

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

See, I'm all for respecting the greatness that is Tom Izzo, and he can go out on his own terms and when... he's earned that.. but to act like this is some sort of one season miss is just being disingenuous. It's a trend at this point, and that's fine, that's usually what happens to coaches at the end of tenures.

Doesn't the thread title alone refute that this a trend? I think it does. F4s are hard to make. And the 2020 team was well on the way to another. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but that was a helluva team peaking at the right time. I wouldn't consider that team part of a bad trend.

When is the last time MSU went 4 years without competing for a big ten title? or come close to a final 4?

MSU's record last 4 years:

17-10 (9-7)
21-13 (11-8)
23-13 (11-9)
15-13 (9-11)

I'm trying to find a worse stretch in Izzo's tenure and glancing through the year by year, I'm struggling to. You guys are just talking about final 4s like it's the only thing that matters (we aren't going to those lately, either). This program used to win Big Ten Titles, BTTs and final 4s. Now we are just ignoring the Big ten season (which I believe is the best indicator of a good team) because we are .500 in the big ten.

Nordic wrote:FTR, yeah I think Izzo has lost a step. Of course he has. He's 69 years old fergodssake. I think he has lost some of his grit and toughness. Part of that is also just the trend of the times and other teams also catching up on the toughness part. Goddam do I miss the days when we'd auto out rebound teams by double digits. I'll still take Izzo on the my bench.

I think the trend of the times is the sole reason he's mellowed. Izzo has had many players who would have transferred after their freshman years if it would've been aa easy as it is today. This actually shows how adept he is at changing with the times. Now he's reevaluating his portal strategy. He made a very interesting strategic decision to show loyalty to his players but it looks like it may not pay off. He's definitely not set in his ways, and for a 69-year-old coach that's remarkable.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

DWags wrote:


Do you mean by “end of tenures” his skills have diminished? Or just that they walk away?

Dantonio lacked recruiting victories at the end of his. He still could coach. He lacked playmakers.


Izzo landed the # 3 class last year and I think he has the #7 class this year. So I don’t think he’s lost that energy.

I’m guessing you mean he doesn’t see the game as clearly, if you even mean any of that.

Or do you simply mean he’s near the end of his tenure.

It seems like he can still recruit, so I'll go with the game evolving and him not keeping up with it. Also not using the portal when every other program is utilizing it and supplementing their rosters when they see gaps (the center position in our case).

Sissoko and Cooper can not be getting minutes on a big ten team in 2024. They can't make a shot outside of an alley oop dunk. The game has gone away from these type of big men.

Yet he still can beat Shaka Smart with no center. Whipped Baylor. Illinois.

I’m waiting on these two recruiting classes. I don’t think the game has passed him by. It’s like we think he somehow doesn’t know offense and defense now.

If I had to take a wild guess, like everybody is, I would say, even though appears tough on the sidelines, I wonder if he’s as tough at practice still

D wags that is a 3 game sample size in college basketball.

DWags wrote:

Cameron wrote:

I noticed your bump, if that's what you are referring to. Seemed rather tongue-in-cheek to me, but what do I know?

So you do get sarcasm?   Right on.  

Honestly, I had a lot of time on my hands  but I have not been on that other board and I won’t go to it.  Way too much negative energy.  I’ve got to the point in my life where you know the people who have negative energy, and the people who don’t   Remember Tan Fan and Vlad?  Board feels bad about a loss, so why not pile on.  There’s nothing wrong with criticism, but it’s the same people over and over and over, after a loss, can’t talk, Basketball, but must criticize vehemently.

In the next breath, they say they don’t really care much about athletics   I’ve learned that they care, by far, the most about MSU winning or losing  


However, sitting around today, (I have a ton of time) I wanted to find out, how long most of the great programs had in between final fours. It really shocked me.   Izzo has spoiled us.    It’s amazing some of the gap years.    But we still look at those coaches as amazing coaches, and their programs as amazing programs.   And then it struck me.., I guarantee you that they also have those fans that bring the negative energy after each loss instead of discussion  .  We aren’t any different.

It was stunning   no way that I think some of these programs had seven years nine years 11 years in between final fours.   we might be on a seven or an eight or a nine year or more gap right now  .   Appreciate what we had and what we’ve been able to enjoy..  

Or we can just say  something real negative about Izzo instead of discussing what it might take  to get back to one.  


Pointing out someone bringing negative energy is probably a fault that I have   But now that I’m in my 60s, I don’t really give a shit about saying it

Yes, obviously I recognized both OTPT's post in the other thread and your OP in this thread as sarcasm. I'm not an engineer, I don't have trouble spotting it.

It feels to me like your argument is essentially the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. Of course Tom Izzo has forgotten more about basketball than the rest of us collectively have ever known. That doesn't mean he is perfect, that doesn't mean his coaching decisions are beyond reproach, and he wouldn't disagree with either sentiment himself. Message boards like this one exist almost solely for the purpose of stupid sports takes from uninformed dipshits. As message boards go, tSwill is extremely mild, so posts like your OP responding to entirely predictable reactions to one of the most underwhelming seasons (relative to expectations) of the Izzo era seem excessively defensive.

Get well soon.