Israel war

Cameron wrote:"Continue to follow US law" implies that Biden is currently following US law. He is not. I am under no delusions that Trump would follow the Leahy Law either, and I doubt there would be a substantive difference in policy (which is, in itself, quite the indictment of Genocide Joe).

I will say that Joe Biden is a true believer, ideologically committed to supporting Israel at all costs, an out-and-proud Zionist. Trump doesn't really give a fuck, supporting Israel is just what his base likes. The moment Israel becomes more of a liability than an asset, Trump would cut them loose. Not so for Biden.

But, again, I am under no delusions that Trump would in any way constitute an improvement. Frankly, if there isn't a ceasefire by the time Trump would take office, that probably means Gaza has just been completely wiped off the map anyway.

The U.S. government considers torture, extrajudicial killing, enforced disappearance, and rape under color of law as GVHRs when implementing the Leahy law.

An extrajudicial killing (also known as an extrajudicial execution or an extralegal killing)[1] is the deliberate killing of a person without the lawful authority granted by a judicial proceeding. It typically refers to government authorities, whether lawfully or unlawfully, targeting specific people for death, which in authoritarian regimes often involves political, trade union, dissident, religious and social figures. The term is typically used in situations that imply the human rights of the victims have been violated; deaths caused by legal police actions (such as self defense)[1] or legal warfighting on a battlefield[2] are generally not included, even though military and police forces are often used for killings seen by critics as illegitimate. The label "extrajudicial killing" has also been applied to organized, lethal enforcement of extralegal social norms by non-government actors, including lynchings and honor killings.

The lack of enforcement of the Leahy law in Israel appears especially troubling to its namesake. In a statement to the Guardian, the former Vermont senator said the purpose of the Leahy law was to shield the US from culpability for gross violations of human rights by foreign security forces that receive US aid and deter future violations.

“But the law has not been applied consistently, and what we have seen in the West Bank and Gaza is a stark example of that. Over many years I urged successive US administrations to apply the law there, but it has not happened,” Leahy said.

But people familiar with the process who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Israel had benefited from extraordinary policies inside the ILVF, details of which have not previously been reported.

“Nobody said it but everyone knew the rules were different for Israel. No one will ever admit that, but it’s the truth,” said one former state department official.

Second, Israel must be consulted about alleged human rights violations that are under review and has 90 days to respond to claims, creating what some former officials said were significant delays. No other country’s government must be consulted under state department procedures, former officials said.

“Part of the reason why the ILVF has never worked is that the process is so gummed up with delay mechanisms that exist for no other country,” the former state department official said.

FADEL: Now, Patrick Leahy, the Vermont senator who this law is named for, says the U.S. is breaking this law by continuing to provide Israel with military aid during this war in Gaza. Is the U.S. running afoul of this law?

BLAHA: We haven't managed to tell Israel any units to which assistance should not go. In my opinion, there are probably dozens of units that should not be the beneficiaries of U.S. assistance.

FADEL: And how did you arrive at this opinion?

BLAHA: Well, by examining the information that the Israel Leahy Vetting Forum received about the conduct of some Israeli units.

FADEL: So give me some examples, if you don't mind.

BLAHA: The most frequent things that we look at when implementing the Leahy law would be extrajudicial killings, torture, enforced disappearances, and rape as a weapon of war. Those are the most common things.

FADEL: And those are things that were examined, and you couldn't trace anything back to specific units.

BLAHA: In some cases, yes, we did trace those back to specific units.

FADEL: And then...

BLAHA: The Leahy law does not apply where there has been accountability for those things. And some of them, there has been - in most of them, no.

FADEL: Israel has given the State Department written assurances that it has not violated international or U.S. laws with U.S.-supplied weapons in Gaza. This was in response to a memo from Biden asking for assurances. Is their statement enough to say, OK, well, the Israeli government said it's following the laws - military aid should continue?

BLAHA: Well, that national security memorandum you mentioned requires that the State Department make a determination about whether those assurances are credible. And the State Department is doing that now. One of the things that we would need to look at in terms of whether the assurances are credible is the conduct of Israel so far. And Israel has maintained that its conduct so far hasn't violated international humanitarian law. If Israel is going to maintain the same type of conduct that it has to date, it would be difficult to understand how assurances could be deemed credible. I think that the State Department should publish the assurances that it got from Israel, so the American public can see for itself and decide for itself.

FADEL: So if you were in charge right now, what would you do?

BLAHA: I would suspend, like we did with Saudi Arabia, transfers of offensive air-to-ground items, especially bombs. And I would suspend transfers of firearms and firearms ammunition because so many innocent civilians have been killed by Israeli Defense Forces using firearms. I would condition lifting of those suspensions on a significant decrease in civilian casualties, and on Israel lifting restrictions on humanitarian assistance.

FADEL: Charles Blaha is the former director of the State Department's Office of Security and Human Rights. Thank you so much for your time.

Those analysts are looking for “credible” evidence that the unit has committed a gross human rights violation, which is typically defined as torture, extrajudicial killing, enforced disappearance, or rape, but can also be interpreted more broadly. That information can come from a variety of reliable sources, including media and NGO reports, and is ideally corroborated by multiple sources, but it does not need to meet the strict legal standard required to be admitted as evidence in a court of law.

“I was shocked when I saw how differently, even at the lowest levels of the government, US officials treated Israel,” Harrison said. “I’ve seen officers not even look at a case and say, ‘No, we’re not cutting off assistance to Israel.’”

Paul said that allegations often haven’t moved forward against Israeli units due to the objections of the Bureau of Near East Affairs and the US embassy in Jerusalem.

And Harrison said that she recalled incidents in which officials had testimony and video recordings that would in other cases constitute credible evidence, but still would not cut off aid. Instead, the department spent months trying to get information from Israel about its intelligence on the incidents, the perpetrator’s intent, and the kind of crimes they were charged with, if any. Though US officials consult with partner governments on Leahy matters, Harrison said the degree to which they do so with Israel is “extreme” and well beyond what is required by the law.

“The US is trying to make sure Israel has every opportunity to undermine the allegation because the US is loath to cut off assistance to Israel,” Harrison said. “It’s a completely different standard.”

He cited the International Criminal Court complaint accusing Israel of committing war crimes against journalists covering the conflict in the Palestinian territories. One journalist killed by Israeli fire in Lebanon, Reuters reporter Issam Abdallah, was explicitly targeted, Reporters Without Borders argues in its forensic analysis of the attack. Israel has claimed that it was responding to an anti-tank missile fired by the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah, which is designated by many countries as a terrorist organization, suspecting a “terrorist infiltration into Israeli territory” from Lebanon, only to later find out journalists had been harmed.

But Reporters Without Borders says that Abdallah and his colleagues were out in the open, not embedded with combatants, with their equipment, clothing, and vehicle clearly marked as “press,” and that an Israeli helicopter had flown over them twice in the hour prior to the attack, meaning that Israeli forces had time to identify them as journalists.

Paul said that other examples of extrajudicial killings under the Leahy Law could be the two women killed in a Gaza church by an Israeli sniper earlier this week and the killing of the Israeli hostages who were shot by the IDF, shirtless and waving a white flag.

More than 30 Democratic members of the US House of Representatives have called for a full halt to the transfer of weapons to Israel, in a letter to President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken.

“In light of the recent strike against aid workers and the ever-worsening humanitarian crisis, we believe it is unjustifiable to approve these weapons transfers,” read the letter signed on Friday by the lawmakers, including former House speaker and Biden ally Nancy Pelosi

DWags wrote:

Cameron wrote:Not directly addressing the Leahy Law, but seems relevant:

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I would support Biden, tying any future aid to bringing those in Israeli army or government to trial, or at least the promise of a trial that committed this atrocity. I don’t think he would ever have the balls to do that. But again, if my choices are Biden and trump in the fall, I’m still voting for Biden.

DWags wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

Has a full detailed report come out yet? Was this intentional on the part of those in the IDF or was it an accident?

I think a trial would answer that.

TravelinMan wrote:

DWags wrote:


I think a trial would answer that.

That logic would be super popular in 17th century Massachusetts.  

Despite the steps taken by Mr Netanyahu last week, the views of seven current and former US government officials reflect the way internal objections to policy continue to mount. They said many government workers were voicing their frustrations in unofficial forums that include at least a dozen groups on messaging apps, which the officials said counted hundreds of administration staff as members.

Four current officials at varying levels of seniority in different government departments spoke to the BBC on condition of anonymity. Two have roles in areas with direct links to foreign policy, including on Israel and Gaza.

One who has 25 years of national security experience said internal opposition had become "deeper, wider and more despairing" than at any previous point in the war. While the increase in pressure from President Biden last week was welcome, it did not go far enough to reflect the "moral urgency" to act, they said.

"I read it as Israel doing the bare minimum to get through the day and avoid arms transfers being halted," the official added.

Some of the officials who spoke to the BBC said they wanted the Biden administration to explicitly condition arms supplies to Israel in order to avoid a full-scale humanitarian collapse.

The administration has been under increasing pressure to say whether it is conducting a full review by the state department's Office of the Legal Advisor into whether Israeli actions in Gaza have breached international law, which could lead to a bar on US weapons shipments.

Josh Paul, a former senior official who resigned last year in protest, said the state department had not asked the office to make an assessment because "it does not want the answer it will get". The state department declined to confirm whether it had referred any cases to the office.

A third government official said the fact that much more concerted US pressure was applied only after the deaths of international aid workers sent a message that "Palestinian lives do not matter". Nearly 200 Palestinian aid workers have been killed in Gaza since the start of the war, according to Humanitarian Outcomes, a group that monitors aid-worker deaths.

State department spokesman Matthew Miller said last week that the US had "not at this time concluded that Israel has violated international humanitarian law" but said its assessments were "very much ongoing".

But referring to the assessments, Mr Finucane, the former state department lawyer, told the BBC: "I think they're likely dramatically overstating the reality."

He described a new process the department launched in September to monitor any civilian harm by partner military forces as essentially "guidance" with "no structure behind it".

TravelinMan wrote:

DWags wrote:


I would support Biden, tying any future aid to bringing those in Israeli army or government to trial, or at least the promise of a trial that committed this atrocity.   I don’t think he would ever have the balls to do that. But again, if my choices are Biden and trump in the fall, I’m still voting for Biden.

Has a full detailed report come out yet?  Was this intentional on the part of those in the IDF or was it an accident?  

TravelinMan wrote:

DWags wrote:


I think a trial would answer that.

That logic would be super popular in 17th century Massachusetts.  

... and the policy of assuming all military aged males are Hamas combatants in no way merits reconsideration.

CNN wrote:“The people we’re seeing in these images are all suspected terrorists,” Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy told CNN’s Brianna Keilar. “When we find military-aged men in areas that we have been urging an evacuation of for over a month – because these are Hamas strongholds where we have seen intense urban fighting – we need to apprehend those people, work out who the terrorists are. And if there are people there who are not, in fact, terrorists they will, of course, be released.”

The system, called Lavender, was developed in the aftermath of Hamas’ October 7th attacks, the report claims. At its peak, Lavender marked 37,000 Palestinians in Gaza as suspected “Hamas militants” and authorized their assassinations.

In interviews with +972 and Local Call, however, Israeli intelligence officers said they weren’t required to conduct independent examinations of the Lavender targets before bombing them but instead effectively served as “a ‘rubber stamp’ for the machine’s decisions.” In some instances, officers’ only role in the process was determining whether a target was male.

Intelligence officers were given wide latitude when it came to civilian casualties, sources told +972. During the first few weeks of the war, officers were allowed to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians for every lower-level Hamas operative targeted by Lavender; for senior Hamas officials, the military authorized “hundreds” of collateral civilian casualties, the report claims.

Trapper Gus wrote:

... and the policy of assuming all military aged males are Hamas combatants in no way merits reconsideration.

CNN wrote:“The people we’re seeing in these images are all suspected terrorists,” Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy told CNN’s Brianna Keilar. “When we find military-aged men in areas that we have been urging an evacuation of for over a month – because these are Hamas strongholds where we have seen intense urban fighting – we need to apprehend those people, work out who the terrorists are. And if there are people there who are not, in fact, terrorists they will, of course, be released.”

Not quite the case, but very close.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:



Not quite the case, but very close.

Oh well if the Israeli government spokesman says that then it must be true.

Zurn wrote:Hamas was asked to release 40 hostages to jumpstart a ceasefire negotiation.

Hamas?   "We can't find 40 hostages to do that"  

Cameron wrote:Report: Israel used AI to identify bombing targets in Gaza

The system, called Lavender, was developed in the aftermath of Hamas’ October 7th attacks, the report claims. At its peak, Lavender marked 37,000 Palestinians in Gaza as suspected “Hamas militants” and authorized their assassinations.

In interviews with +972 and Local Call, however, Israeli intelligence officers said they weren’t required to conduct independent examinations of the Lavender targets before bombing them but instead effectively served as “a ‘rubber stamp’ for the machine’s decisions.” In some instances, officers’ only role in the process was determining whether a target was male.

Intelligence officers were given wide latitude when it came to civilian casualties, sources told +972. During the first few weeks of the war, officers were allowed to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians for every lower-level Hamas operative targeted by Lavender; for senior Hamas officials, the military authorized “hundreds” of collateral civilian casualties, the report claims.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Oh well if the Israeli government spokesman says that then it must be true.

Well, it is better sourced information than a random claim by a poster on the board without sources cited.

It confirms most of what Cam posted...

Please, please remember that if I use sarcasm, I mark it as such.

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Well, it is better sourced information than a random claim by a poster on the board without sources cited.

It confirms most of what Cam posted...

Please, please remember that if I use sarcasm, I mark it as such.

What if you use irony?  Do you mark that, too?

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Well, it is better sourced information than a random claim by a poster on the board without sources cited.

It confirms most of what Cam posted...

Please, please remember that if I use sarcasm, I mark it as such.

What if you use irony?  Do you mark that, too?

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Oh well if the Israeli government spokesman says that then it must be true.

Well, it is better sourced information than a random claim by a poster on the board without sources cited.

It confirms most of what Cam posted...

Please, please remember that if I use sarcasm, I mark it as such.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Well, it is better sourced information than a random claim by a poster on the board without sources cited.

It confirms most of what Cam posted...

Please, please remember that if I use sarcasm, I mark it as such.

Is it a better source of information than that? (Hint, it isn’t. At best it’s equally unreliable.)

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Jesus Christ trapper

Why are you talking about cnn? This isn’t about cnn. Read it again

“The people we’re seeing in these images are all suspected terrorists,” Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy told CNN’s Brianna Keilar. “When we find military-aged men in areas that we have been urging an evacuation of for over a month – because these are Hamas strongholds where we have seen intense urban fighting – we need to apprehend those people, work out who the terrorists are. And if there are people there who are not, in fact, terrorists they will, of course, be released.”

Trapper Gus wrote:

TravelinMan wrote:

What if you use irony?  Do you mark that, too?

I never have, do you use a "/i"? /s

(Or were you being sarcastic but not marking it, I can never tell what you guys actually mean without proper notation.)

TravelinMan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I never have, do you use a "/i"? /s

(Or were you being sarcastic but not marking it, I can never tell what you guys actually mean without proper notation.)

I think the “i” is already taken. Maybe we could use /h in honor of the hissy fit you threw when someone asked YOU to post references?

kingstonlake wrote:

Zurn wrote:Hamas was asked to release 40 hostages to jumpstart a ceasefire negotiation.

Hamas?   "We can't find 40 hostages to do that"  

 
RQA, Israel currently holds over 4,000 Palestinian prisoners. They also hold 1,310 uncharged “administrative detainees”. Including 130 children. 

How many did they offer to free?

Floyd Robertson wrote:Well, here we go. Thanks, Iran.

Iran launches dozens of drones toward Israel