Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1?

by **The_Dude** 2015-04-13, 12:11

http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/14/michigan-proposal-roads/70307352/

by Guest 2015-04-13, 12:17

Not I.

by **InTenSity** 2015-04-13, 12:18

Michigan should just go back to dirt roads.

by **Turtleneck** 2015-04-13, 12:38

Who gets promoted if we vote yes? Or is this about banning Nigel?

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2015-04-13, 12:40

If they explain exactly how they are going to use the added revenue, maybe.

by **The_Dude** 2015-04-13, 12:42

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:If they explain exactly how they are going to use the added revenue, maybe.

I still don't understand how politicians don't grasp the concept that these proposals won't pass when they are overly complicated and convoluted.

They are all effing lawyers and making things complicated is just business for them.

by **steveschneider** 2015-04-13, 12:43

How are the roads in Michigan?

Michigan should just open up some toll booths and pay for the roads.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 12:52

big 'ol "NO" for me.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 12:53

InTenSity wrote:Michigan should just go back to dirt roads.

that would be pretty sweet..

by **DWags** 2015-04-13, 12:58

Sure, I'll vote yes. It won't kill me and the roads will be better.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-04-13, 13:04

steveschneider wrote:How are the roads in Michigan?

Michigan should just open up some toll booths and pay for the roads.

Awful, but with that said,

F tolls.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 13:11

can't imagine this passing... granted, I don't exactly hang out with the most influential people but I haven't talked with anyone about it who is voting "yes".

by **InTenSity** 2015-04-13, 13:22

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
steveschneider wrote:How are the roads in Michigan?

Michigan should just open up some toll booths and pay for the roads.

Awful, but with that said,

F tolls.

I just added up what I pay a year in tolls. Around $550-$600. My wife and I both drive, so I'm guessing it totals about $1k a year. pale

by **DWags** 2015-04-13, 13:26

Robert J Sakimano wrote:can't imagine this passing... granted, I don't exactly hang out with the most influential people but I haven't talked with anyone about it who is voting "yes".

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:27

steveschneider wrote:How are the roads in Michigan?

Michigan should just open up some toll booths and pay for the roads.

Agreed. Should return the taxes they're taking for the roads and toll it up.

They won't relinquish those sweet, sweet tax dollars, though.

Mmmm mmmm sooo good.

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:29

I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad. Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 2599972566

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 2599972566

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:32

The freeways certainly aren't as nice as Pennsylvania's or Ohio's, but those are toll roads so it makes sense they're that much nicer.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 13:32

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:can't imagine this passing... granted, I don't exactly hang out with the most influential people but I haven't talked with anyone about it who is voting "yes".

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

yeah, the roads definitely suck..

however, I prefer to have politicians be held accountable. Like cowards, they're passing their elected duties down to the taxpayers so they can then run around during the next election cycle proclaiming to the knuckle-draggers how they've never raised their taxes.

and, yeah, I agree with you on education. The only thing that the gerrymandered republican legislature values less than the people of Michigan is educating the people of Michigan. They need to make sure that the general electorate remains uninformed in order for them to maintain their power.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-04-13, 13:36

If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2015-04-13, 13:37

xsanguine wrote:I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad.

Last year was effing insane. I remember Lake Lansing was reduced to rubble across the whole road in some sections. This winter wasn't as brutal and the roads didn't fall apart nearly as bad once everything thawed.

Roads will always be bad around here. I'm pretty much used to it. Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 2599972566

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:39

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:
xsanguine wrote:I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad.

Last year was effing insane. I remember Lake Lansing was reduced to rubble across the whole road in some sections. This winter wasn't as brutal and the roads didn't fall apart nearly as bad once everything thawed.

Roads will always be bad around here. I'm pretty much used to it.

The one thing I did notice about Michigan is when you guys have a pothole... you have a motherfucking POTHOLE. Like you could tie Luke Skywalker's hands behind his back and make him walk the plank into that fuckin pothole.

Here we don't have as dramatic of holes (heh), but there's just a lot more of them scattered about.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 13:39

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.

like I said, the republicans have a vested interest in keeping the electorate uniformed. An educated public would be cataclysmic to their agenda.

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:39

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.
like I said, the republicans have a vested interest in keeping the electorate uniformed. An educated public would be cataclysmic to their agenda.

Bob, you're still my homie. Always fun chatting with you, brotha.

by **InTenSity** 2015-04-13, 13:40

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.

Yes, its been a great plan.

1)Say that education doesn't work. Take money from the school system and 'privatize' it. Now with less money into education, complain that education doesn't work. Show that private, for profit schools with smaller classes in affluential area's work better than public, tax sucking money pits in run down area's and huge classes are a failure.
2)Make sure that your buddies are the ones running hte for profit schools
3)Profit
4)Get out before everyone realizes its a scam and hurt the children.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 13:41

xsanguine wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:like I said, the republicans have a vested interest in keeping the electorate uniformed. An educated public would be cataclysmic to their agenda.

Bob, you're still my homie. Always fun chatting with you, brotha.

thanks, dude.. right back at ya.. I have no idea why people think everyone has to agree with them all the time about everything. Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 969504605

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 969504605

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-04-13, 13:43

xsanguine wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

Last year was effing insane. I remember Lake Lansing was reduced to rubble across the whole road in some sections. This winter wasn't as brutal and the roads didn't fall apart nearly as bad once everything thawed.

Roads will always be bad around here. I'm pretty much used to it.

The one thing I did notice about Michigan is when you guys have a pothole... you have a motherfucking POTHOLE. Like you could tie Luke Skywalker's hands behind his back and make him walk the plank into that fuckin pothole.

Here we don't have as dramatic of holes (heh), but there's just a lot more of them scattered about.

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 502811600

Truth regarding the pot holes in Michigan..

Why don't we do "Pot for potholes"? Legalize the mary jane, use that $$$ to fix our roads and continue to support human capital with education. Boom.

Elect me.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2015-04-13, 13:43

InTenSity wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.

Yes, its been a great plan.

1)Say that education doesn't work. Take money from the school system and 'privatize' it. Now with less money into education, complain that education doesn't work. Show that private, for profit schools with smaller classes in affluential area's work better than public, tax sucking money pits in run down area's and huge classes are a failure.
2)Make sure that your buddies are the ones running hte for profit schools
3)Profit
4)Get out before everyone realizes its a scam and hurt the children.

Want to get depressed? Set aside some time one night to watch this.

by tTito 2015-04-13, 13:44

Don't tax me bro.

by **Watch Out Pylon!** 2015-04-13, 13:45

xsanguine wrote:
Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

Last year was effing insane. I remember Lake Lansing was reduced to rubble across the whole road in some sections. This winter wasn't as brutal and the roads didn't fall apart nearly as bad once everything thawed.

Roads will always be bad around here. I'm pretty much used to it.

The one thing I did notice about Michigan is when you guys have a pothole... you have a motherfucking POTHOLE. Like you could tie Luke Skywalker's hands behind his back and make him walk the plank into that fuckin pothole.

Here we don't have as dramatic of holes (heh), but there's just a lot more of them scattered about.

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 14808422-large

by Guest 2015-04-13, 13:49

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:If I know one thing, no $ should be coming from fucking education. We are still taking $ AWAY from ed? It's 2015, fuck.

Fallacy.

We spend much more on education now than we have in the past.

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? Historic%20per%20pupil%20spending%20and%20pupil%20teacher%20ratio_0

Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? Historic%20per%20pupil%20spending%20and%20pupil%20teacher%20ratio_0

by Guest 2015-04-13, 13:52

xsanguine wrote:I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad.

I've been off the road for 2 years or so now but this "Michigan has the worst roads" thing has been around longer than that. It's just not so. As X says take a trip to New Jersey, Connecticut and New York then come tell me about our roads.

I'd vote for a gas/diesel or miles driven tax, let the users pay for the roads. Quit taking road money out for mass transit, bike paths and other bullshit. If people want those things, again let the users pay.

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 13:56

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

The one thing I did notice about Michigan is when you guys have a pothole... you have a motherfucking POTHOLE. Like you could tie Luke Skywalker's hands behind his back and make him walk the plank into that fuckin pothole.

Here we don't have as dramatic of holes (heh), but there's just a lot more of them scattered about.

Truth regarding the pot holes in Michigan..

Why don't we do "Pot for potholes"? Legalize the mary jane, use that $$$ to fix our roads and continue to support human capital with education. Boom.

Elect me.

While not perfect in my view (I'm pretty much an anarchist)... it's a far better solution than enslaving stoners.

What we do now is some Old Testament shit.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-04-13, 13:56

DWags wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:can't imagine this passing... granted, I don't exactly hang out with the most influential people but I haven't talked with anyone about it who is voting "yes".

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

What's the logic here. Florida (a peninsula) is full of toll roads. Florida's roads are also pretty easy to maintain. Now they've got this new "toll by plate" deal where you don't even have to slow down. No toll booths. No toll operators. You just pass under some sensors & they take your money! How convenient!! And during rush hour, on the busiest roads, you can pay up to $8 to drive 5 miles in the "express lane".

It's funny (not really), but when the idea of tolls was originally sold, they were supposed to stop when the bonds that paid for the building of the roads were paid off. I've yet to see that happen. I saw they did it in Atlanta, but I've never seen it in FL. I think that's because, like with the lottery & education, the new funds end up being replacement funds instead of additional funds. The budget for the items stays the same & the extra money ends up taking the place of funds siphoned off to other areas.

So I wouldn't bet on this new bill magically fixing the roads in MI, assuming it passes, but you never know, maybe the government with get something right for once. Blind squirrel, right? Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 2599972566

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 13:57

LooseGoose wrote:
xsanguine wrote:I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad.

I've been off the road for 2 years or so now but this "Michigan has the worst roads" thing has been around longer than that. It's just not so. As X says take a trip to New Jersey, Connecticut and New York then come tell me about our roads.

I'd vote for a gas/diesel or miles driven tax, let the users pay for the roads. Quit taking road money out for mass transit, bike paths and other bullshit. If people want those things, again let the users pay.

I'm down with this.

by **InTenSity** 2015-04-13, 14:00

Heat Miser wrote:
DWags wrote:

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

What's the logic here. Florida (a peninsula) is full of toll roads. Florida's roads are also pretty easy to maintain. Now they've got this new "toll by plate" deal where you don't even have to slow down. No toll booths. No toll operators. You just pass under some sensors & they take your money! How convenient!! And during rush hour, on the busiest roads, you can pay up to $8 to drive 5 miles in the "express lane".

It's funny (not really), but when the idea of tolls was originally sold, they were supposed to stop when the bonds that paid for the building of the roads were paid off. I've yet to see that happen. I saw they did it in Atlanta, but I've never seen it in FL. I think that's because, like with the lottery & education, the new funds end up being replacement funds instead of additional funds. The budget for the items stays the same & the extra money ends up taking the place of funds siphoned off to other areas.

So I wouldn't bet on this new bill magically fixing the roads in MI, assuming it passes, but you never know, maybe the government with get something right for once. Blind squirrel, right?

I thought that MDX has to have construction going on in order to have tolls. That is why the Palmetto has never been completed and there is a revolving 5 year plan of what roads are getting fixed. All I know is that even before they start construction, they make sure that the tolls get in there first. Now the Dolphin has tolls running East and West, which is kind of bullshit. I'm not even sure you can drive anywhere in Miami without going through a toll anymore. Now the only way to get anywhere south of the Dolphin to downtown, without a toll is using US1.
/endrant /sorryforhijack

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 14:03

LooseGoose wrote:
xsanguine wrote:I visited my parents in Michigan (Lansing) last month and they were bitching about the roads.

I dunno... compared to New York, at least Brooklyn... they didn't seem that bad.

I've been off the road for 2 years or so now but this "Michigan has the worst roads" thing has been around longer than that. It's just not so. As X says take a trip to New Jersey, Connecticut and New York then come tell me about our roads.

I'd vote for a gas/diesel or miles driven tax, let the users pay for the roads. Quit taking road money out for mass transit, bike paths and other bullshit. If people want those things, again let the users pay.

Initially I wanted to disagree with this just due to my own personal philosophy.

But it really does make the most sense. I'm not a big fan of taxes but if you're going to tax... try as hard as possible to put the tax where it'll affect those using them the most.

It doesn't make sense to raise Bob's taxes (or yours if you're referring to biking/walking as being off the roads) when Bob is doing the earth and his health some good by riding a bike to work.

by **xsanguine** 2015-04-13, 14:06

Heat Miser wrote:
DWags wrote:

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

What's the logic here. Florida (a peninsula) is full of toll roads. Florida's roads are also pretty easy to maintain. Now they've got this new "toll by plate" deal where you don't even have to slow down. No toll booths. No toll operators. You just pass under some sensors & they take your money! How convenient!! And during rush hour, on the busiest roads, you can pay up to $8 to drive 5 miles in the "express lane".

It's funny (not really), but when the idea of tolls was originally sold, they were supposed to stop when the bonds that paid for the building of the roads were paid off. I've yet to see that happen. I saw they did it in Atlanta, but I've never seen it in FL. I think that's because, like with the lottery & education, the new funds end up being replacement funds instead of additional funds. The budget for the items stays the same & the extra money ends up taking the place of funds siphoned off to other areas.

So I wouldn't bet on this new bill magically fixing the roads in MI, assuming it passes, but you never know, maybe the government with get something right for once. Blind squirrel, right?

It's probably the Michigan winters. Water getting in those cracks and then freezing, coupled with the peninsula aspect, is prolly what he's talking about I'd imagine.

I mean... when I was in Arizona... fantastic roads. sunny

by **Heat Miser** 2015-04-13, 14:22

InTenSity wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:
DWags wrote:

I"d be surprised if it passed also. When it doesn't Snyder and the legislature, I'm fairly certain, will take it out on public education or something like that. They'll be paid for. Either by this tax or by robbing peter to pay paul and cutting public education and creating the need for higher tuition. I don't know, just have a feeling.

I don't think Toll roads work on a pennisula, maybe they do. I would love for somebody to tell me what's fair and I'll pay it. But I don't think I've read what's fair that I've really agreed with. Bottom line is we'll fork over money some way, and if we need too, that's fine. These roads just suck.

What's the logic here. Florida (a peninsula) is full of toll roads. Florida's roads are also pretty easy to maintain. Now they've got this new "toll by plate" deal where you don't even have to slow down. No toll booths. No toll operators. You just pass under some sensors & they take your money! How convenient!! And during rush hour, on the busiest roads, you can pay up to $8 to drive 5 miles in the "express lane".

It's funny (not really), but when the idea of tolls was originally sold, they were supposed to stop when the bonds that paid for the building of the roads were paid off. I've yet to see that happen. I saw they did it in Atlanta, but I've never seen it in FL. I think that's because, like with the lottery & education, the new funds end up being replacement funds instead of additional funds. The budget for the items stays the same & the extra money ends up taking the place of funds siphoned off to other areas.

So I wouldn't bet on this new bill magically fixing the roads in MI, assuming it passes, but you never know, maybe the government with get something right for once. Blind squirrel, right?
I thought that MDX has to have construction going on in order to have tolls. That is why the Palmetto has never been completed and there is a revolving 5 year plan of what roads are getting fixed. All I know is that even before they start construction, they make sure that the tolls get in there first. Now the Dolphin has tolls running East and West, which is kind of bullshit. I'm not even sure you can drive anywhere in Miami without going through a toll anymore. Now the only way to get anywhere south of the Dolphin to downtown, without a toll is using US1.
/endrant /sorryforhijack

It does seem like sometimes they'll resurface a perfectly good stretch of road for no apparent reason. Maybe, as you say, to keep the toll up or to get federal $$$ that would otherwise be lost? Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 2599972566

FYI...the toll is both ways on the 112 now too. Is anyone going to vote yes on Proposal 1? 1896033241

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-04-13, 14:32

xsanguine wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:

What's the logic here. Florida (a peninsula) is full of toll roads. Florida's roads are also pretty easy to maintain. Now they've got this new "toll by plate" deal where you don't even have to slow down. No toll booths. No toll operators. You just pass under some sensors & they take your money! How convenient!! And during rush hour, on the busiest roads, you can pay up to $8 to drive 5 miles in the "express lane".

It's funny (not really), but when the idea of tolls was originally sold, they were supposed to stop when the bonds that paid for the building of the roads were paid off. I've yet to see that happen. I saw they did it in Atlanta, but I've never seen it in FL. I think that's because, like with the lottery & education, the new funds end up being replacement funds instead of additional funds. The budget for the items stays the same & the extra money ends up taking the place of funds siphoned off to other areas.

So I wouldn't bet on this new bill magically fixing the roads in MI, assuming it passes, but you never know, maybe the government with get something right for once. Blind squirrel, right?

It's probably the Michigan winters. Water getting in those cracks and then freezing, coupled with the peninsula aspect, is prolly what he's talking about I'd imagine.

I mean... when I was in Arizona... fantastic roads.

yeah, but you had to live in Arizona. Yikes. Not my scene.

by Guest 2015-04-13, 14:35

xsanguine wrote:But it really does make the most sense. I'm not a big fan of taxes but if you're going to tax... try as hard as possible to put the tax where it'll affect those using them the most.

It doesn't make sense to raise Bob's taxes (or yours if you're referring to biking/walking as being off the roads) when Bob is doing the earth and his health some good by riding a bike to work.

My reference to being "off the road" was based on me spending about 5 years helping my sons get a business started. We delivered motorcycles to every state except AK/HI, over those years we averaged about 250,000 miles per year on our trucks and were literally in every corner of the US. We knew the roads both freeways and local roads pretty darned well.

Since I stopped driving for them I probably average driving about 300-500 miles a month so I use the roads very little. Even then with a user fee I'd feel that I paid my fair share because the companies that deliver things to me are going to pay those fees resulting in higher prices to me.

The problem with making it a straight gas/diesel tax as in the past is all the alternative fuels - CNG, Electric, Hybrids, Ethanol, etc, etc get "missed". Thus there is something to be said for mileage fees, but that isn't going to go over well with the "big brother" haters.

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