Re: Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates

by **Trapper Gus** Wed May 18, 2022 9:34 pm

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Give it a rest, buddy. Football > politics

Friend, while you are at it, could you tell Trapper to put "gaslighting" away too?

It is pretty simple, dude. You stop doing it, I stop calling you out about it.

by Pervis Muldoon Thu May 19, 2022 8:34 am

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Give it a rest, buddy. Football > politics

Friend, while you are at it, could you tell Trapper to put "gaslighting" away too?

Maybe you two could make a deal: Trapper stops using the word "gaslighting" and you stop using emojis.

by RQA Thu May 19, 2022 8:57 am

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
RQA wrote:

Friend, while you are at it, could you tell Trapper to put "gaslighting" away too?

Maybe you two could make a deal: Trapper stops using the word "gaslighting" and you stop using emojis.

Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates - Page 23 1f44d

by **Trapper Gus** Thu May 19, 2022 9:02 am

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
RQA wrote:

Friend, while you are at it, could you tell Trapper to put "gaslighting" away too?

Maybe you two could make a deal: Trapper stops using the word "gaslighting" and you stop using emojis.

Tempting, however I'm sticking with the deal I offered.

by Pervis Muldoon Thu May 19, 2022 9:05 am

RQA wrote:
Pervis Muldoon wrote:

Maybe you two could make a deal: Trapper stops using the word "gaslighting" and you stop using emojis.

Whatever that is, it's okay by me. I'm on mobile. Just work it out with Trapper.

by RQA Thu May 19, 2022 10:21 am

Just to show that I am a reasonable guy and to foster good will on the board, I will use no more emojis going forward until Trapper next uses the word "gaslighting" or some version of it.

by Bredo Morstoel Thu May 19, 2022 10:37 am

RQA wrote:Just to show that I am a reasonable guy and to foster good will on the board, I will use no more emojis going forward until Trapper next uses the word "gaslighting" or some version of it.

I will join with RQA in this pledge.

by **Trapper Gus** Thu May 19, 2022 11:52 am

RQA wrote:Just to show that I am a reasonable guy and to foster good will on the board, I will use no more emojis going forward until Trapper next uses the word "gaslighting" or some version of it.

Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates - Page 23 420617953

After this post just to show that I am a reasonable guy and to foster good will on the board, I will use no more emojis going forward until RQA or Bredo next gaslightings or some version of it.

by RQA Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:32 am

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/electric-car-four-day-trip-more-time-charging-sleeping

Over four days, we spent $175 on charging. We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275, based on the AAA average national gas price for May 19. That $100 savings cost us many hours in waiting time.

by PennSpartan Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:35 am

RQA wrote:https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/electric-car-four-day-trip-more-time-charging-sleeping

Over four days, we spent $175 on charging. We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275, based on the AAA average national gas price for May 19. That $100 savings cost us many hours in waiting time.

That’s odd. Why didn’t they charge at the many locations that let you charge for free?

by PennSpartan Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:36 am

Double post

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:09 am

PennSpartan wrote:
RQA wrote:https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/electric-car-four-day-trip-more-time-charging-sleeping

Over four days, we spent $175 on charging. We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275, based on the AAA average national gas price for May 19. That $100 savings cost us many hours in waiting time.
That’s odd. Why didn’t they charge at the many locations that let you charge for free?

They were using level 3 chargers, which are faster but cost money to use.

by PennSpartan Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:14 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
PennSpartan wrote:
That’s odd. Why didn’t they charge at the many locations that let you charge for free?

They were using level 3 chargers, which are faster but cost money to use.

Then it’s their own fault. If I said I know a gas station that is giving away free gas the line of cars would be miles long. You have to shop smartly.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:56 am

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

They were using level 3 chargers, which are faster but cost money to use.
Then it’s their own fault. If I said I know a gas station that is giving away free gas the line of cars would be miles long. You have to shop smartly.

It is an antidotal measure of how prepared the charging infrastructure is as more electric vehicles are on the roads.

On one side the article shows that they were able to complete the trip and were able to find chargers when they had to.

On the other side the chargers were sometimes not convenient, they sometimes didn't charge at the expected rate and the travelers were forced to alter their plans due to the limited charger availability.

Clearly, more and better chargers are needed moving forward.

edit - Update on Chargers

by RQA Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:37 am

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/14/ford-mustang-mach-e-recall-stops-deliveries-power-loss/

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:02 am

RQA wrote:https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/14/ford-mustang-mach-e-recall-stops-deliveries-power-loss/

"On affected vehicles, Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. Overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in a contactor that remains open or a contactor that welds closed. An overheated contactor that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

An Engineering mistake in which this "use case" was not considered, or a quality issue with the contacts on the contators.

by RQA Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:50 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
RQA wrote:https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/14/ford-mustang-mach-e-recall-stops-deliveries-power-loss/

"On affected vehicles, Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. Overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in a contactor that remains open or a contactor that welds closed. An overheated contactor that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

An Engineering mistake in which this "use case" was not considered.

I suspect this was your project.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:10 am

RQA wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

An Engineering mistake in which this "use case" was not considered, or a quality issue with the contactors.

I suspect this was your project.

It wasn't, however as a technical specialist in Automotive Electonics I have seen similar types of issues, and with the description provided in the link you provided those are the two most likely problems.

Since it is a certain build data it is either a quality issue with the contactors, or the circuit which turns them on, or it is a design flaw where the contactors characteristics from the vendor, changed over time and the qualification testing was done with contactors/actuation circuits which were on the better side of the bell curve of manufacturing.

eidt - TL:TR however I once saw a relay designed to break 12-volt circuits used in a 300-volt circuit application under the assumption it would never be opened to open the 300-volt circuit. Short story is that it was opened with 300-volts active, there wasn't much left inside the relay cover but a metallic coating on the inside surface where all the relay metal had been deposited from the arcing.

by RQA Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:14 am

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/polestar-ipo-lukewarm-debut-troubling-124913863.html

Any new entrant to the EV industry is in an especially tricky situation, since materials used in EV batteries have seen some of the most intense inflation, forcing companies to raise the price of their already expensive cars, trucks and SUVs.

by Pervis Muldoon Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:18 am

RQA wrote:https://finance.yahoo.com/news/polestar-ipo-lukewarm-debut-troubling-124913863.html

Any new entrant to the EV industry is in an especially tricky situation, since materials used in EV batteries have seen some of the most intense inflation, forcing companies to raise the price of their already expensive cars, trucks and SUVs.

Still valiantly fighting progress.

by **Jake from State Farm** Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:22 pm

Pervis Muldoon wrote:
RQA wrote:https://finance.yahoo.com/news/polestar-ipo-lukewarm-debut-troubling-124913863.html

Any new entrant to the EV industry is in an especially tricky situation, since materials used in EV batteries have seen some of the most intense inflation, forcing companies to raise the price of their already expensive cars, trucks and SUVs.

Still valiantly fighting progress.

Just asked the local golf cart guy about lithium batteries for my golf cart. He said don't bother because they're not advanced enough and besides, electric cars run on electricity made from coal.

by RQA Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:29 pm

Jake from State Farm wrote:
Just asked the local golf cart guy about lithium batteries for my golf cart. He said don't bother because they're not advanced enough and besides, electric cars run on electricity made from coal.

About 21% of the electricity powering EVs comes from coal, 60% from some type of fossil fuel.

by **Trapper Gus** Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:49 am

The EV market looks a lot like the ICE market did in the 1920's. Lots of startups trying to get in on the obvious next big thing. Most of them will fail over time.

by RQA Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:56 am

Trapper Gus wrote:The EV market looks a lot like the ICE market did in the 1920's. Lots of startups trying to get in on the obvious next big thing. Most of them will fail over time.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/stellantis-says-electrification-killing-affordable-134500841.html

"It's really a threat that the electrification has increased the price of the car so much that people can't afford cars anymore."

Price of a Model T in the 1920s? Less than $500. I'll let Trapper and Pervis figure out how much that would be today.

by Pervis Muldoon Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:25 pm

RQA wrote:

Price of a Model T in the 1920s? Less than $500. I'll let Trapper and Pervis figure out how much that would be today.

That's not relevant to anything I've posted, so Trapper can handle it if he wants. I'm just checking in to see how your battle against progress is going today.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:03 pm

Jake from State Farm wrote:
RQA wrote:

So Trapper, what EV can I get for 28k?

https://www.truecar.com/best-cars-trucks/fuel-electric/price-under-35000/

Take $7500 off the price for the tax credit.

Seems like the price question has been discussed already.

The Model T cost more the $500 when it was introduced.

by RQA Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:55 pm

Trapper Gus wrote:

The Model T cost more the $500 when it was introduced.

You brought up the 1920s. How much did one cost then? How much would that be in today's dollars? What is the average cost of an EV in today's dollars.

Questions you pal Pervis declines to answer.

by **Jake from State Farm** Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:16 pm

RQA wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

The Model T cost more the $500 when it was introduced.

You brought up the 1920s. How much did one cost then? How much would that be in today's dollars? What is the average cost of an EV in today's dollars.

Questions you pal Pervis declines to answer.

You could probably find an equivalence on Alibaba for a couple thousand. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges.

by **GRR Spartan** Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:42 pm

Quick, someone tell Audi, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, GM and Ford they’re all pissing in the wind on EV’s and Big Oil is going to turn back the clock to 1955.

by **Trapper Gus** Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:29 pm

RQA wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

The Model T cost more the $500 when it was introduced.

You brought up the 1920s. How much did one cost then? How much would that be in today's dollars? What is the average cost of an EV in today's dollars.

Questions you pal Pervis declines to answer.

EV's cost about 28k. A model T in today's dollars is about 1.2 Billion /s

by PennSpartan Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:42 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
RQA wrote:

You brought up the 1920s. How much did one cost then? How much would that be in today's dollars? What is the average cost of an EV in today's dollars.

Questions you pal Pervis declines to answer.

EV's cost about 28k. A model T in today's dollars is about 1.2 Billion

by **Trapper Gus** Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:08 am

PennSpartan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

EV's cost about 28k. A model T in today's dollars is about 1.2 Billion

I forgot the /s

by RQA Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:33 am

GRR Spartan wrote:Quick, someone tell Audi, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, GM and Ford they’re all pissing in the wind on EV’s and Big Oil is going to turn back the clock to 1955.

The rush to EVs is not market driven as was the triumph of the ICE over its competitors in the early 1900s.

My link in post #904 opined that this government mandated rush to the EV is making cars unaffordable to the masses. Just the opposite of what happened in the 1900s.

Making cars unaffordable - some here are calling that "progress".

by PennSpartan Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:36 am

RQA wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Quick, someone tell Audi, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, GM and Ford they’re all pissing in the wind on EV’s and Big Oil is going to turn back the clock to 1955.

The rush to EVs is not market driven as was the triumph of the ICE over its competitors in the early 1900s.

My link in post #904 opined that this government mandated rush to the EV is making cars unaffordable to the masses. Just the opposite of what happened in the 1900s.

Making cars unaffordable - some here are calling that "progress".

I don’t know how old you are, but if you’re under 50 you will be driving an EV one day. Book it.

by **Trapper Gus** Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:16 am

RQA wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Quick, someone tell Audi, VW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, GM and Ford they’re all pissing in the wind on EV’s and Big Oil is going to turn back the clock to 1955.

The rush to EVs is not market driven as was the triumph of the ICE over its competitors in the early 1900s.

My link in post #904 opined that this government mandated rush to the EV is making cars unaffordable to the masses. Just the opposite of what happened in the 1900s.

Making cars unaffordable - some here are calling that "progress".

Your link to quoting managers from car companies that find themselves behind in the race to switch to EV's, and thus at least some questioning should be used when reading what they think. The switch is market disruptive, absolutely, and will have winners and losers.

As to the costs, there are tradeoffs between ICE & EV power. ICE's are much more mechanically complex and the material & manufacturing has many more components and processes verses an EV. Conversely, the "fuel systems" are the opposite.

Then there is the learning curve. After 100 years of mass production almost every cost has been wrung out of the ICE manufacturing process. EV's are still on that curve, both the batteries & the power trains. Add to that the complications of massive research ongoing in both power train & batteries means significant opportunities for economic & performance improvements.

Finally - using MSRP as a measure of the cost of the vehicle to the seller is of limited validity. Less expensive MSRP's are typically, though not always, due to fewer options. Selling prices are based both on cost to build and on what the buyers will pay. EV's right now are being priced higher by some companies due to demand, not cost to build.

by RQA Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:45 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/2021-22-mustang-mach-e-161031313.html

The claim is that there is

a design flaw in its popular electric vehicles that causes them to lose power while driving down the road — and has not figured out how to fix the problem.

by **GRR Spartan** Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:50 pm

More from the anti-EV Yeah but Brigade.

A damned shame no one has VW, GM, Hyundai/Kia and other EV manufacturers they’re just pissin’ in the wind because internal combustion engines are never going to be replaced.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:06 am

Ford issued a recall in June wrote:Then, in June, the automaker issued a recall affecting 48,924 or 100% of the 2021-22 Mach-E vehicles built during a two-year time period that could lose power while driving or not start. The action also included a dealer hold on any vehicles not yet delivered to customers.

Lawsuit Filed in July wrote:The lawsuit, filed July 1 in U.S. District Court in the Eastern District of California, raises questions about "a uniformly designed defective high voltage battery main contactor that could overheat, thereby immobilizing the vehicle or making it lose power during operation. The contactors on these vehicles are prone to fail during ordinary and foreseeable driving situations."

Seems like Ford did take action, contrary to the lawsuit's claim.

I wonder how many recalls on ICE vehicles there are this year. I know Ford has one for ICE vehicles which might catch on fire while parked.

by RQA Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:16 am

Trapper Gus wrote:

I wonder how many recalls on ICE vehicles there are this year. I know Ford has one for ICE vehicles which might catch on fire while parked.

Thank God you bought an ICE vehicle, Trapper. You don't have to worry that it will catch on fire while parked.

by **Jake from State Farm** Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:18 am

Trapper Gus wrote:
Ford issued a recall in June wrote:Then, in June, the automaker issued a recall affecting 48,924 or 100% of the 2021-22 Mach-E vehicles built during a two-year time period that could lose power while driving or not start. The action also included a dealer hold on any vehicles not yet delivered to customers.

Lawsuit Filed in July wrote:The lawsuit, filed July 1 in U.S. District Court in the Eastern District of California, raises questions about "a uniformly designed defective high voltage battery main contactor that could overheat, thereby immobilizing the vehicle or making it lose power during operation. The contactors on these vehicles are prone to fail during ordinary and foreseeable driving situations."

Seems like Ford did take action, contrary to the lawsuit's claim.

I wonder how many recalls on ICE vehicles there are this year. I know Ford has one for ICE vehicles which might catch on fire while parked.

Seems like if the person filing the lawsuit knows exactly what's wrong with the vehicle causing it to lose power that they would notify Ford to help correct the problem.

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