Working from Home and Worker Productivity

There has been an argument on this board about employers demanding workers who can easliy work form home return to the office.

One point discussed is that productivity improved when workers started working form home.

Here is an article showing that it wasn't just because work was being done in a new environment, an effect found way back in the 1950's in famous productivity study done in a Western Electric Plant in Chicago, but it is that people who can work from home are more productive at home, for whatever reason.

https://ktla.com/news/money-smart/people-return-to-offices-productivity-plunges/

Hey traps, as a precovid work from home veteran (since 2016 off and on and like 2018 full time) I’ll tell you that at least in my experience I am undoubtedly more productive at home. A few reasons why;

1) the obvious, I spend the time I’d otherwise spend driving or going out to lunch working. There isn’t really a midday break or anything, just periodically I grab my phone to post on the swill. But I did that in the office too.
2) collaboration between teams is overrated and happens way less frequently than executives that want to force you back into offices like to think. Sure periodically collaboration needs to happen but rare is the event where we really need that to happen in person. We can just have a conference call. If we need it to be in person, or if it’s a really big deal, then we’ll go in person. But we don’t need to be there every day, or hell even the entirety of that day where we do meet, to do that.
3) this usually don’t get talked about- it’s a lot easier to fuck off during your useless meeting and go do other things if you can’t see me fucking off during your useless meeting. I can get work done during a conference call about something I don’t really need to be listening to. If you force me to meet with you in person about waste of time bullshit, I have to sit there and listen. An entire hour was wasted because this was done in person.


There’s more, but I’m going to go to work stuff now. See, if I were in the office I’d probably continue to fuck off. But I have to go get stuff done now. Be back later.

Trapper Gus wrote:There has been an argument on this board about employers demanding workers who can easliy work form home return to the office.

One point discussed is that productivity improved when workers started working form home.

Here is an article showing that it wasn't just because work was being done in a new environment, an effect found way back in the 1950's in famous productivity study done in a Western Electric Plant in Chicago, but it is that people who can work from home are more productive at home, for whatever reason.

https://ktla.com/news/money-smart/people-return-to-offices-productivity-plunges/

It’s not about productivity (which is a small difference), it’s about the economy. If you shut down offices, you affect businesses that rely on those offices. The restaurant, cleaning service, building maintenance, or bar that is supported by that office. It’s not hard to understand.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:There has been an argument on this board about employers demanding workers who can easliy work form home return to the office.

One point discussed is that productivity improved when workers started working form home.

Here is an article showing that it wasn't just because work was being done in a new environment, an effect found way back in the 1950's in famous productivity study done in a Western Electric Plant in Chicago, but it is that people who can work from home are more productive at home, for whatever reason.

https://ktla.com/news/money-smart/people-return-to-offices-productivity-plunges/

It’s not about productivity (which is a small difference), it’s about the economy. If you shut down offices, you affect businesses that rely on those offices. The restaurant, cleaning service, building maintenance, or bar that is supported by that office. It’s not hard to understand.

Sure, working from home is more efficient and it means that the businesses and people you are talking about can do something else. The workers still have to eat so food service just shifts where it happens. The buildings can now be used for something else. It is called creative destruction.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:There has been an argument on this board about employers demanding workers who can easliy work form home return to the office.

One point discussed is that productivity improved when workers started working form home.

Here is an article showing that it wasn't just because work was being done in a new environment, an effect found way back in the 1950's in famous productivity study done in a Western Electric Plant in Chicago, but it is that people who can work from home are more productive at home, for whatever reason.

https://ktla.com/news/money-smart/people-return-to-offices-productivity-plunges/

It’s not about productivity (which is a small difference), it’s about the economy. If you shut down offices, you affect businesses that rely on those offices. The restaurant, cleaning service, building maintenance, or bar that is supported by that office. It’s not hard to understand.

Oh an executive that forces people back to the office doesn’t give a shit about that. There’s the obvious power dynamic, but also they care way more about all of the empty office space that they’re paying for. But, eventually those leases will come due and companies will start shedding the space they don’t need anymore. Hopefully that eventually means more housing in places like urban centers, which will circle back to the restaurant and bar. I think at some point those commercial real estate buildings are going to get in a bit of a bind if they don’t shift to things like housing or retail. There just won’t be as many companies looking to lease 10 floors when 2 would do it.

But yeah, some things are going to have to change for businesses like those that rely on cleaning offices. Such is life. It doesn’t justify forcing people into offices when there is no business reason to do so.

At the end of the day it won’t impact me- going into an office on a regular basis is not really feasible anymore for me. The nearest one is over an hour away. And it would be pointless, my team is spread all across the country. Even if we all went to and office, we still wouldn’t see each other. It’d be exactly the same as it is now but we’d be in a work office instead of a home office. That won’t happen. I feel for people that live relatively close to an office, so does their team, and their boss can start to feel that control itch to force them to come in for no reason. That sucks. But I’ll be at home for the foreseeable future regardless.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
It’s not about productivity (which is a small difference), it’s about the economy. If you shut down offices, you affect businesses that rely on those offices. The restaurant, cleaning service, building maintenance, or bar that is supported by that office. It’s not hard to understand.

Oh an executive that forces people back to the office doesn’t give a shit about that. There’s the obvious power dynamic, but also they care way more about all of the empty office space that they’re paying for. But, eventually those leases will come due and companies will start shedding the space they don’t need anymore. Hopefully that eventually means more housing in places like urban centers, which will circle back to the restaurant and bar. I think at some point those commercial real estate buildings are going to get in a bit of a bind if they don’t shift to things like housing or retail. There just won’t be as many companies looking to lease 10 floors when 2 would do it.

But yeah, some things are going to have to change for businesses like those that rely on cleaning offices. Such is life. It doesn’t justify forcing people into offices when there is no business reason to do so.

At the end of the day it won’t impact me- going into an office on a regular basis is not really feasible anymore for me. The nearest one is over an hour away. And it would be pointless, my team is spread all across the country. Even if we all went to and office, we still wouldn’t see each other. It’d be exactly the same as it is now but we’d be in a work office instead of a home office. That won’t happen. I feel for people that live relatively close to an office, so does their team, and their boss can start to feel that control itch to force them to come in for no reason. That sucks. But I’ll be at home for the foreseeable future regardless.

Sorry, I have no response. I just laughed my ass off when I read this.

I think we should say fuck the office workers, make them spend more time on the roads commuting, adding to pollution, decreased productivity, higher stress, worse mental health, etc., just so that restaurants around offices can keep a few extra employees, even though they can't hire enough people to begin with.

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Oh an executive that forces people back to the office doesn’t give a shit about that. There’s the obvious power dynamic, but also they care way more about all of the empty office space that they’re paying for. But, eventually those leases will come due and companies will start shedding the space they don’t need anymore. Hopefully that eventually means more housing in places like urban centers, which will circle back to the restaurant and bar. I think at some point those commercial real estate buildings are going to get in a bit of a bind if they don’t shift to things like housing or retail. There just won’t be as many companies looking to lease 10 floors when 2 would do it.

But yeah, some things are going to have to change for businesses like those that rely on cleaning offices. Such is life. It doesn’t justify forcing people into offices when there is no business reason to do so.

At the end of the day it won’t impact me- going into an office on a regular basis is not really feasible anymore for me. The nearest one is over an hour away. And it would be pointless, my team is spread all across the country. Even if we all went to and office, we still wouldn’t see each other. It’d be exactly the same as it is now but we’d be in a work office instead of a home office. That won’t happen. I feel for people that live relatively close to an office, so does their team, and their boss can start to feel that control itch to force them to come in for no reason. That sucks. But I’ll be at home for the foreseeable future regardless.

Sorry, I have no response. I just laughed my ass off when I read this.

Okay? I mean. I don’t know why. But I’m glad you’re happy Penn.

Trapper Gus wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
It’s not about productivity (which is a small difference), it’s about the economy. If you shut down offices, you affect businesses that rely on those offices. The restaurant, cleaning service, building maintenance, or bar that is supported by that office. It’s not hard to understand.

Sure, working from home is more efficient and it means that the businesses and people you are talking about can do something else. The workers still have to eat so food service just shifts where it happens. The buildings can now be used for something else. It is called creative destruction.

You’re in Michigan. I want you to explain how they will assemble cars working from home.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Sure, working from home is more efficient and it means that the businesses and people you are talking about can do something else. The workers still have to eat so food service just shifts where it happens. The buildings can now be used for something else. It is called creative destruction.

You’re in Michigan. I want you to explain how they will assemble cars working from home.

Penn I’m pretty sure we aren’t talking about jobs that cannot be done from home, just those that can. It’s a tough one to grasp but you’ll get there.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
You’re in Michigan. I want you to explain how they will assemble cars working from home.

Penn I’m pretty sure we aren’t talking about jobs that cannot be done from home, just those that can. It’s a tough one to grasp but you’ll get there.

Really? So it’s like student debt relief. Not for everyone. I’m starting to see a pattern here.

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Penn I’m pretty sure we aren’t talking about jobs that cannot be done from home, just those that can. It’s a tough one to grasp but you’ll get there.

Really? So it’s like student debt relief. Not for everyone. I’m starting to see a pattern here.

Yeah. I mean, you’re right I don’t think they can assemble cars in their basement. If they could, great. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Since an auto manufacturer can’t build a car in their basement an office worker should have to go into an office? What do these things even have to do with each other?

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Penn I’m pretty sure we aren’t talking about jobs that cannot be done from home, just those that can. It’s a tough one to grasp but you’ll get there.

Really?  So it’s like student debt relief.  Not for everyone.  I’m starting to see a pattern here.  

Lol.  Now I'm laughing. Had a coworker today ask me how things are in the office.  I said it's pointless going on.  I can do everything at home all the same.  I actually watch more shows and fuck around in the office than I do at home.  My wife is a nurse,  she has to go to work,  but guess what,  when she's not at work she doesn't really have to do anything.  When I'm not at work I'm still working.  I'm guessing because of your age this is probably just a foreign concept.  Those factory workers get to leave work at work,  I'm expected to be on call 24/7.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
Really? So it’s like student debt relief. Not for everyone. I’m starting to see a pattern here.

Yeah. I mean, you’re right I don’t think they can assemble cars in their basement. If they could, great. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Since an auto manufacturer can’t build a car in their basement an office worker should have to go into an office? What do these things even have to do with each other?

If you had paid any attention to my posts in the student debt relief discussion you would understand. You’re very productive working from home. Get back to me when you figure it out. (Now I know why you can post so much in the middle of the workday. Productive!)

InTenSity wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
Really?  So it’s like student debt relief.  Not for everyone.  I’m starting to see a pattern here.  

Lol.  Now I'm laughing. Had a coworker today ask me how things are in the office.  I said it's pointless going on.  I can do everything at home all the same.  I actually watch more shows and fuck around in the office than I do at home.  My wife is a nurse,  she has to go to work,  but guess what,  when she's not at work she doesn't really have to do anything.  When I'm not at work I'm still working.  I'm guessing because of your age this is probably just a foreign concept.  Those factory workers get to leave work at work,  I'm expected to be on call 24/7.

You sound like a great hire!

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Yeah. I mean, you’re right I don’t think they can assemble cars in their basement. If they could, great. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Since an auto manufacturer can’t build a car in their basement an office worker should have to go into an office? What do these things even have to do with each other?

If you had paid any attention to my posts in the student debt relief discussion you would understand. You’re very productive working from home. Get back to me when you figure it out. (Now I know why you can post so much in the middle of the workday. Productive!)

I mean I’m pretty sure I just said what you are trying to say. That an office worker should have to go into an office if an auto worker has to go into a factory. That is nonsense and I think you’re just being a contrarian for the sake of it rather than making a point.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
If you had paid any attention to my posts in the student debt relief discussion you would understand. You’re very productive working from home. Get back to me when you figure it out. (Now I know why you can post so much in the middle of the workday. Productive!)

I mean I’m pretty sure I just said what you are trying to say. That an office worker should have to go into an office if an auto worker has to go into a factory. That is nonsense and I think you’re just being a contrarian for the sake of it rather than making a point.

No. My point is valid. But we’ll find out next week, won’t we?

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

I mean I’m pretty sure I just said what you are trying to say. That an office worker should have to go into an office if an auto worker has to go into a factory. That is nonsense and I think you’re just being a contrarian for the sake of it rather than making a point.

No. My point is valid. But we’ll find out next week, won’t we?

Are you having a stroke? Blink twice if you’re having a stroke. We will get you help.

What in a cable news addled brain does this have to do with an election? Hell I’m not even sure why this is on the political board. It’s not a political topic at all.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

Sure, working from home is more efficient and it means that the businesses and people you are talking about can do something else. The workers still have to eat so food service just shifts where it happens. The buildings can now be used for something else. It is called creative destruction.

You’re in Michigan. I want you to explain how they will assemble cars working from home.

You might be surprised to know that Michigan is the Global leader in Automotive Engineering, much of which can be done at home.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
No. My point is valid. But we’ll find out next week, won’t we?

Are you having a stroke? Blink twice if you’re having a stroke. We will get you help.

What in a cable news addled brain does this have to do with an election? Hell I’m not even sure why this is on the political board. It’s not a political topic at all.

Are you a Republican? This is exactly what Oz has been saying about Fetterman. Stroke jokes. You really don’t have a sympathetic bone in your body, do you?

Trapper Gus wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
You’re in Michigan. I want you to explain how they will assemble cars working from home.

You might be surprised to know that Michigan is the Global leader in Automotive Engineering, much of which can be done at home.

Assembly too? I’m blown away!

InTenSity wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
Really?  So it’s like student debt relief.  Not for everyone.  I’m starting to see a pattern here.  

Lol.  Now I'm laughing. Had a coworker today ask me how things are in the office.  I said it's pointless going on.  I can do everything at home all the same.  I actually watch more shows and fuck around in the office than I do at home.  My wife is a nurse,  she has to go to work,  but guess what,  when she's not at work she doesn't really have to do anything.  When I'm not at work I'm still working.  I'm guessing because of your age this is probably just a foreign concept.  Those factory workers get to leave work at work,  I'm expected to be on call 24/7.

I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't get this concept.  As an Engineer in a global company I, and the rest of the Engineering Staff, were 24/7.  While Engineering offices in Europe & China, places where the governments protect their workers from being forced to work 24/7 were only available in their 8 to 5 working hours, we US Engineers were in meetings at 3AM for hours to talk to the Chinese Engineering staff, every week.

Penn retired long before the cell phone and laptop were standard issue.

For what it’s worth, out of this world cable news fueled rants aside, my wife had to leave today at 430, so I walked away from my desk to take care of the kid. I have shit I want to get done before tomorrow though that I couldn’t finish, so when she gets home in about an hour I’m going to log back on and take care of it. I was working last night until about 9, with again a break in the late afternoon for a couple of hours. None of that stuff would have happened had I been going to an office, I wouldn’t be logging back in later, and the stuff that needs to get done would have been finished like mid next week. Instead it’s getting done tonight. Just a real world example for how giving employees that flexibility helps get more production out of them.

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Are you having a stroke? Blink twice if you’re having a stroke. We will get you help.

What in a cable news addled brain does this have to do with an election? Hell I’m not even sure why this is on the political board. It’s not a political topic at all.

Are you a Republican? This is exactly what Oz has been saying about Fetterman. Stroke jokes. You really don’t have a sympathetic bone in your body, do you?

I don’t live in Pennsylvania nor do I obsessively watch cable news so when I hear stroke I don’t automatically think about one of your senate candidates, no. I don’t see any blinking, so I’ll just assume nothing is wrong with you and that you’re ranting without any kind of point.

Trapper Gus wrote:

InTenSity wrote:
Lol.  Now I'm laughing. Had a coworker today ask me how things are in the office.  I said it's pointless going on.  I can do everything at home all the same.  I actually watch more shows and fuck around in the office than I do at home.  My wife is a nurse,  she has to go to work,  but guess what,  when she's not at work she doesn't really have to do anything.  When I'm not at work I'm still working.  I'm guessing because of your age this is probably just a foreign concept.  Those factory workers get to leave work at work,  I'm expected to be on call 24/7.

I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't get this concept.  As an Engineer in a global company I, and the rest of the Engineering Staff, were 24/7.  While Engineering offices in Europe & China, places where the governments protect their workers from being forced to work 24/7 were only available in their 8 to 5 working hours, we US Engineers were in meetings at 3AM for hours to talk to the Chinese Engineering staff, every week.

Penn retired long before the cell phone and laptop were standard issue.

(Still doesn’t get it)

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:For what it’s worth, out of this world cable news fueled rants aside, my wife had to leave today at 430, so I walked away from my desk to take care of the kid. I have shit I want to get done before tomorrow though that I couldn’t finish, so when she gets home in about an hour I’m going to log back on and take care of it. I was working last night until about 9, with again a break in the late afternoon for a couple of hours. None of that stuff would have happened had I been going to an office, I wouldn’t be logging back in later, and the stuff that needs to get done would have been finished like mid next week. Instead it’s getting done tonight. Just a real world example for how giving employees that flexibility helps get more production out of them.

(Still doesn’t get it)

If no one gets it, then maybe it’s the messenger. Please enlighten us people who work in these environments about why we are wrong about the environments we work in.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:For what it’s worth, out of this world cable news fueled rants aside, my wife had to leave today at 430, so I walked away from my desk to take care of the kid. I have shit I want to get done before tomorrow though that I couldn’t finish, so when she gets home in about an hour I’m going to log back on and take care of it. I was working last night until about 9, with again a break in the late afternoon for a couple of hours. None of that stuff would have happened had I been going to an office, I wouldn’t be logging back in later, and the stuff that needs to get done would have been finished like mid next week. Instead it’s getting done tonight. Just a real world example for how giving employees that flexibility helps get more production out of them.

Sounds nice, however before the pandemic in Detroit, we were expected to be in the office 8AM to 5PM and then working at home from 5PM to 8AM. Quiet quitting meant one got to sleep at night.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If no one gets it, then maybe it’s the messenger. Please enlighten us people who work in these environments about why we are wrong about the environments we work in.

Think as hard as you can what I bitched about in the student debt debate. Think about what is the hallmark of the Democratic Party. What do we always complain about with the GOP?

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

I'm pretty sure Penn doesn't get this concept.  As an Engineer in a global company I, and the rest of the Engineering Staff, were 24/7.  While Engineering offices in Europe & China, places where the governments protect their workers from being forced to work 24/7 were only available in their 8 to 5 working hours, we US Engineers were in meetings at 3AM for hours to talk to the Chinese Engineering staff, every week.

Penn retired long before the cell phone and laptop were standard issue.

(Still doesn’t get it)

Well at least you are admitting you haven't got a clue what the current work life is like.

Must have been nice to have bankers hours back in the 1960's when you were last employed.

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If no one gets it, then maybe it’s the messenger. Please enlighten us people who work in these environments about why we are wrong about the environments we work in.

Think as hard as you can what I bitched about in the student debt debate. Think about what is the hallmark of the Democratic Party. What do we always complain about with the GOP?

So you’re worthless trolling. Got it. Please stop spamming the thread

PennSpartan wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:If no one gets it, then maybe it’s the messenger. Please enlighten us people who work in these environments about why we are wrong about the environments we work in.

Think as hard as you can what I bitched about in the student debt debate. Think about what is the hallmark of the Democratic Party. What do we always complain about with the GOP?

You are bitching because the Democratic Parties policies are to make the life of the people in poverty better, and not including the 1%?

I have to admit I get a kick out of watching Penn already signaling defeat for democrats in midterms. He knows the moderate we elected has failed to motivate moderates to vote for moderate in midterms. He’s got his excuses already pre loaded. He’s gonna blame progressives for moderate failures. He’s gonna lean on student debt relief as the excuse why moderates voted for eliminating human rights, election security, miming social security, and woman’s right to chose. It’s the typical trumpian playbook. Make very very poor decisions and blame everyone else for those decisions.

Trapper Gus wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
Think as hard as you can what I bitched about in the student debt debate. Think about what is the hallmark of the Democratic Party. What do we always complain about with the GOP?

You are bitching because the Democratic Parties policies are to make the life of the people in poverty better, and not including the 1%?

No, the Democratic policies are to make things fair. Equitable. Unbiased. Impartial. Just.

kingstonlake wrote:I have to admit I get a kick out of watching Penn already signaling defeat for democrats in midterms. He knows the moderate we elected has failed to motivate moderates to vote for moderate in midterms. He’s got his excuses already pre loaded. He’s gonna blame progressives for moderate failures. He’s gonna lean on student debt relief as the excuse why moderates voted for eliminating human rights, election security, miming social security, and woman’s right to chose. It’s the typical trumpian playbook. Make very very poor decisions and blame everyone else for those decisions.

He sure is signaling that he will be blaming everyone but his cohort, who got what they wanted from the current Congress.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

You are bitching because the Democratic Parties policies are to make the life of the people in poverty better, and not including the 1%?

No, the Democratic policies are to make things fair. Equitable. Unbiased. Impartial. Just.

PennSpartan wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

You are bitching because the Democratic Parties policies are to make the life of the people in poverty better, and not including the 1%?

No, the Democratic policies are to make things fair. Equitable. Unbiased. Impartial. Just.

Sure, which since the scales have a ten-ton weight on the side of the 1% means putting a similar ten-ton weight on the side of the 99%. Penn, except for the idiots who don't see that neoliberalism is what fucked up the economy and destroyed the middle class, the rest of the Democratic Party is with Biden, who is trying to rebuild the middle class and funnel a tiny amount of money that the 1% has into the economy to do that.

That includes MediCare For All and free education.

Decisions to work from home, or not, have absolutely nothing to do with politics. I don’t know why you guys think it does. It doesn’t.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Decisions to work from home, or not, have absolutely nothing to do with politics. I don’t know why you guys think it does. It doesn’t.

Except power plays between workers and employers

Trapper Gus wrote:

PennSpartan wrote:
No, the Democratic policies are to make things fair. Equitable. Unbiased. Impartial. Just.

PennSpartan wrote:
No, the Democratic policies are to make things fair. Equitable. Unbiased. Impartial. Just.

Sure, which since the scales have a ten-ton weight on the side of the 1% means putting a similar ten-ton weight on the side of the 99%. Penn, except for the idiots who don't see that neoliberalism is what fucked up the economy and destroyed the middle class, the rest of the Democratic Party is with Biden, who is trying to rebuild the middle class and funnel a tiny amount of money that the 1% has into the economy to do that.

That includes MediCare For All and free education.

Nice shift. You still don’t get it. But you will.

Trapper Gus wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Decisions to work from home, or not, have absolutely nothing to do with politics. I don’t know why you guys think it does. It doesn’t.

Except power plays between workers and employers

Sure, office politics. Not national voting politics.