Future Debt Ceiling Hostage crisis

by AvgMSUJoe Tue 14 Feb 2023 - 9:11

MSU Professor says the "debt ceiling" is unconstitutional.

https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2023/02/14/congress-debt-ceiling-constitution-politics/69895966007/

14th Amendment wrote:The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

Wonder if this is Biden/Yellen's big play... just kill this stupid charade the Rs confuse with governing.

Then again their activist judges just shit all over the words "well regulated militia" soooo.... Future Debt Ceiling Hostage crisis 2599972566

Future Debt Ceiling Hostage crisis 2599972566

by **Motown Spartan** Tue 14 Feb 2023 - 9:12

When they question it, the rebuttal should simply be “a well regulated militia” followed by finger guns.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue 14 Feb 2023 - 10:16

AvgMSUJoe wrote:MSU Professor says the "debt ceiling" is unconstitutional.

https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2023/02/14/congress-debt-ceiling-constitution-politics/69895966007/

14th Amendment wrote:The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

Wonder if this is Biden/Yellen's big play... just kill this stupid charade the Rs confuse with governing.

Then again their activist judges just shit all over the words "well regulated militia" soooo....

As pointed out law suits will occur.

by **Floyd Robertson** Mon 20 Feb 2023 - 13:02

Noooo, we wouldn't want gut tax breaks for the wealthy, let's solve the problem by taking Medicaid away from the poor.

GOP taking budget advice from Trump official who wants to cut $2 trillion from Medicaid

by RQA Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 8:13

Do guys think the debt can continue to rise at a trillion dollar plus per year rate without consequence, constitutional or not?

by **GRR Spartan** Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 10:40

Funny how Federal deficits never mattered in 2001 after the Federal government actually ran surpluses in the late 90’s after several years after the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993.

So after Economic Growth and Tax Relief Act of 2001 the deficit began to grow again.

2003 we saw the 2nd round of Bush2 tax cuts aimed primarily towards business with The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 that was supposed to end in 2010.

President Obama extended the 2003 business friendly tax cuts with the approval of GOP majority House and Federal deficits continued to grow.

The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 was passed by the GOP majority House, GOP majority US Senate and signed by President Trump in Dec 2017. Within weeks the Sec of Treasury Mnuchin went to Congress saying they needed to raise the debt ceiling.

Watching Republicans and self-labeled “conservatives” handwringing about Federal deficits is like watching people eat fast food daily and gripe about gaining weight,

All for show. The GOP and their big money donors real goal is to turn back the clock and undo most of Social Security that their old money ancestors opposed nearly 100 years ago because it’s an impediment to reducing their taxes,

by **Robert J Sakimano** Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 10:48

Democrats always have to come in and mop up careless, reckless republican spending. Nothing new.

by AvgMSUJoe Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 11:03

RQA wrote:Do guys think the debt can continue to rise at a trillion dollar plus per year rate without consequence, constitutional or not?

If we actually get to the point when monetary supply is forcing inflation (we aren't)... if we see the greater economy suffer from that inflation (we aren't)... then we have multiple ways of dealing with debt being a huge issue. Including making the rich pay what they did pre supply side 80s slashing of the highest tax rates.

And that's what the Rs will not stand for.... 1% and corporations paying their fair share.
(All the rest is window dressing to get racists and idiots to vote for them)

by **Cameron** Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 11:18

I have never lost and will never lose a single second of sleep over the national debt or deficit. It simply does not matter.

by **Floyd Robertson** Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 11:23

Cameron wrote:I have never lost and will never lose a single second of sleep over the national debt or deficit. It simply does not matter.

Not to be chicken little but we're either going to nuke ourselves into oblivion or boil like frogs in the pot from climate change long before the federal deficit matters.

by Rick Saunders Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 12:03

AvgMSUJoe wrote:
RQA wrote:Do guys think the debt can continue to rise at a trillion dollar plus per year rate without consequence, constitutional or not?
If we actually get to the point when monetary supply is forcing inflation (we aren't)... if we see the greater economy suffer from that inflation (we aren't)... then we have multiple ways of dealing with debt being a huge issue. Including making the rich pay what they did pre supply side 80s slashing of the highest tax rates.

And that's what the Rs will not stand for.... 1% and corporations paying their fair share.
(All the rest is window dressing to get racists and idiots to vote for them)

I am in favor of your proposal on taxes. But we could also get a substantial portion of the $1.4 Trillion deficit if we could get people to pay what they owe under the current tax code. IRS estimates $1 trillion lost to tax cheats in 2021. Re-fund the IRS.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-13/tax-cheats-are-costing-u-s-1-trillion-a-year-irs-estimates#:~:text=The%20head%20of%20the%20IRS%20calculated%20that%20tax,higher%20than%20previous%20estimates%20from%20the%20federal%20government.

by **Trapper Gus** Tue 21 Feb 2023 - 12:08

RQA wrote:Do guys think the debt can continue to rise at a trillion dollar plus per year rate without consequence, constitutional or not?

Sure, if the GDP increases at a faster rate than that.

BTW these Trillion dollar deficits are 100% due to the feckless policies of the Republicians.

by RQA Wed 22 Feb 2023 - 5:43

Cameron wrote:I have never lost and will never lose a single second of sleep over the national debt or deficit. It simply does not matter.

Great! More money for everyone!!

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 22 Feb 2023 - 14:16

RQA wrote:
Cameron wrote:I have never lost and will never lose a single second of sleep over the national debt or deficit. It simply does not matter.

Great! More money for everyone!!

Nope, mostly for the 0.01%

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 6 Mar 2023 - 9:50

Representative Jamie Raskin (D-MD) pointed out that the Republicans had added 25% of the U.S. debt under Trump and emphasized the economic successes of the Biden administration.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 29 Mar 2023 - 9:32

Today, House speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) sent a letter to President Joe Biden accusing him of being “missing in action” on efforts to address the approaching debt ceiling crisis. McCarthy accused Biden of “putting an already fragile economy in jeopardy” and tried to portray himself as the reasonable party, trying to negotiate “what is best for the American people.”

It was a simply astonishing document, brazen in its suggestion that it is Biden who is taking an “extreme position” on the debt ceiling when in fact it is the Republicans who are threatening to destroy the world’s economy to get their way. They are insisting they will hold the debt ceiling hostage to force a wide range of spending cuts, and also to push policies like easier access to drilling permits.

Once again, the debt ceiling is not about future spending. It’s about meeting the obligations past Congresses have incurred. And a great deal of that debt was incurred during the Trump administration, in large part from the 2017 tax cuts that the Congressional Budget Office estimated would cost almost $2 trillion over 11 years.

Congress voted to increase the debt ceiling three times during the Trump administration. Biden had been clear that he expects it to do so again; he will not negotiate over paying the nation’s bills.

But, as part of the normal budget process, he has also been clear that he is more than happy—eager, even—to debate budget proposals with the Republicans. Biden produced a budget on March 9 and has said that he will enter into negotiations just as soon as the Republicans produce a budget proposal of their own.

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/march-28-2023

by **Trapper Gus** Fri 14 Apr 2023 - 8:29

There are a few behind-the-scenes developments happening on the debt limit that we want to share with you.

No. 1: House Republican leaders have begun informally putting together a debt-limit package they intend to socialize with their rank-and-file members when Congress returns to Washington next week.

The legislation would lift the debt limit until May 2024. Leadership is considering either a cap on non-defense discretionary spending or a cap on overall discretionary spending after reducing it to FY 2022 levels. One cap being considered is $584 billion for non-defense discretionary spending — excluding Veterans Affairs programs.

They’re aiming to limit budget growth to 1% annually for the next 10 years. The House GOP proposal would rescind unspent Covid money, prohibit student loan forgiveness, repeal some green tax credits, institute work requirements for social programs and implement the House Republican energy plan (H.R. 1) and regulation-cutting REINS Act.

Rep. Garret Graves (R-La.) is taking the lead on helping craft the proposal, which would require action by several committees. Graves was deputized by Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

Effectively, House Republican leadership is throwing everything at the wall to try to get a debt-limit bill through the chamber even though it has no chance of passing the Senate. House GOP leadership believes that this will jump start negotiations with the White House.

This bill, however, is a GOP wish list.

https://punchbowl.news/archive/41323-punchbowl-news-am/

by AvgMSUJoe Fri 14 Apr 2023 - 15:30

Hold still Joe. Have a prime time national press conference outlaying your plan to tax the uber wealthy. The Rs would have to justify why Musk, et al. don't pay taxes but they want to cut popular programs across the country while also cutting regulations on banks and industry (which previous attempts have all backfired recently)...

Fuck them, hold steady.

by sεяεηιτλ Fri 14 Apr 2023 - 21:11

ustry (which previous attempts have all backfired recently)...

Honestly, the democrats and Joe aren't acting too worried here.
On some level i think they should be because they are literally dealing with the worst uneducated yet corrupt children this country has produced.
Senior Kevin does NOT even remotely have control of his party. Those idiot extremists held him over a barrel and spanked him. They're coming for more and they are definitely willing to watch the nation burn to the ground, chiefly because the likes of MTG are most likely russian assets.

by **Motown Spartan** Wed 3 May 2023 - 6:43

Sounds like the dems have anticipated this for some time and took some brilliant procedural steps early on to force a vote on the debt ceiling via discharge petition.

Failing New York Times Link

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 3 May 2023 - 8:07

Motown Spartan wrote:Sounds like the dems have anticipated this for some time and took some brilliant procedural steps early on to force a vote on the debt ceiling via discharge petition.

Failing New York Times Link

Well, if they can get 4 Republicans to vote with them, seems unlikely without the Speaker.

by **Motown Spartan** Wed 3 May 2023 - 8:16

Trapper Gus wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:Sounds like the dems have anticipated this for some time and took some brilliant procedural steps early on to force a vote on the debt ceiling via discharge petition.

Failing New York Times Link

Well, if they can get 4 Republicans to vote with them, seems unlikely without the Speaker.

Yes, but they get that and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it from going to a vote. McCarthy can’t just sit on it.

by **Trapper Gus** Wed 3 May 2023 - 12:52

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rhockett/2023/01/19/stop-the-charade-the-federal-budget-is-its-own-debt-ceiling/

by **Trapper Gus** Thu 4 May 2023 - 9:47

“No one should assume that the Fed can really protect the economy and the financial system and our reputation globally from the damage that [a U.S. default] might inflict,” Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell said today. “We shouldn’t even be talking about a world in which the U.S. doesn’t pay its bills. It just shouldn’t be a thing,” he added.

QED

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-3-2023

by **Trapper Gus** Fri 5 May 2023 - 7:47

Senator Mitt Romney (R-UT) at a Senate Budget Committee hearing today blamed Democrats for not raising the debt ceiling themselves last year without help from the Republicans. Kate Riga of Talking Points Memo broke down this argument. If the Democrats had raised the debt ceiling through reconciliation, without Republican votes, Republicans would have insisted that it was the Democrats, not them, who had burdened the country with debt when, in fact, the Republicans added almost $8 trillion to the debt under Trump.

Romney’s complaint amounts to berating the responsible Democrats for not protecting the country against the Republicans, who are willing to burn down the country. As Riga put it: “Darn you Democrats for not taking care of the debt ceiling then, because you knew we’d refuse to raise the limit unless you conceded to our demands, and look what a sticky spot we’re in now.”

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-4-2023

by TravelinMan Fri 5 May 2023 - 9:49

Trapper Gus wrote:
Senator Mitt Romney (R-UT) at a Senate Budget Committee hearing today blamed Democrats for not raising the debt ceiling themselves last year without help from the Republicans. Kate Riga of Talking Points Memo broke down this argument. If the Democrats had raised the debt ceiling through reconciliation, without Republican votes, Republicans would have insisted that it was the Democrats, not them, who had burdened the country with debt when, in fact, the Republicans added almost $8 trillion to the debt under Trump.

Romney’s complaint amounts to berating the responsible Democrats for not protecting the country against the Republicans, who are willing to burn down the country. As Riga put it: “Darn you Democrats for not taking care of the debt ceiling then, because you knew we’d refuse to raise the limit unless you conceded to our demands, and look what a sticky spot we’re in now.”

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-4-2023

TBF, there's a lot of things the Dems should have done while they had the chance. Debt ceiling isn't even in the top 10.

by **Motown Spartan** Fri 5 May 2023 - 10:14

TravelinMan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/may-4-2023

TBF, there's a lot of things the Dems should have done while they had the chance. Debt ceiling isn't even in the top 10.

It's almost as if everyone expects the Dems to do everything because the Repubs can't do anything.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** Fri 5 May 2023 - 10:18

The democrats didn’t do it because they like this fight and think it makes them look good. It’s gross and they shouldn’t do it. They could be out there talking about Clarence Thomas but they have no idea how to approach that issue and refuse to (because they’re cowards) and they certainly don’t want to talk about Dianne feinstein’s decrepit corpse gumming up their agenda at the moment. They didn’t fix the debt ceiling because they didn’t want to and it’s very stupid.

by TravelinMan Fri 5 May 2023 - 10:42

Motown Spartan wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:

TBF, there's a lot of things the Dems should have done while they had the chance. Debt ceiling isn't even in the top 10.

It's almost as if everyone expects the Dems to do everything because the Repubs can't do anything.

Can't or won't. Same difference.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 8 May 2023 - 8:02

TravelinMan wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

It's almost as if everyone expects the Dems to do everything because the Repubs can't do anything.

Can't or won't. Same difference.

Many of the Democratic members support doing good things for the country. Only those paid for by wealthy libertarians don't.

The Republicans of course are all paid for by wealthy libertarians.

by TravelinMan Mon 8 May 2023 - 8:41

Trapper Gus wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:

Can't or won't. Same difference.

Many of the Democratic members support doing good things for the country. Only those paid for by wealthy libertarians don't.

The Republicans of course are all paid for by wealthy libertarians.

Wealthy libertarian is redundant. We’re all wildly rich.

by **Motown Spartan** Mon 8 May 2023 - 8:49

TravelinMan wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Many of the Democratic members support doing good things for the country. Only those paid for by wealthy libertarians don't.

The Republicans of course are all paid for by wealthy libertarians.

Wealthy libertarian is redundant. We’re all wildly rich.

Libertarians are just Republicans that are too ashamed to admit that they’re Republicans, thinking it absolves them of any responsibility yet they pull the lever for Trump or whomever they have to in an effort to prevent the Democrats from winning an election.

We see right through you.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 8 May 2023 - 10:10

Motown Spartan wrote:
TravelinMan wrote:

Wealthy libertarian is redundant. We’re all wildly rich.

Libertarians are just Republicans that are too ashamed to admit that they’re Republicans, thinking it absolves them of any responsibility yet they pull the lever for Trump or whomever they have to say n an effort to prevent the Democrats from winning an election.

We see right through you.

Libertarians are people who want to watch the world burn.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 8 May 2023 - 13:19

So now the Republicans in the Senate are planning to block the lifting of the debt limit.

by TravelinMan Mon 8 May 2023 - 14:11

Trapper Gus wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

Libertarians are just Republicans that are too ashamed to admit that they’re Republicans, thinking it absolves them of any responsibility yet they pull the lever for Trump or whomever they have to say n an effort to prevent the Democrats from winning an election.

We see right through you.

Libertarians are people who want to watch the world burn.

There are days…

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon 8 May 2023 - 14:30

reminder that the GOP wants/needs America to fail.

if you start there, everything else makes sense.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon 8 May 2023 - 14:32

Trapper Gus wrote:
Motown Spartan wrote:

Libertarians are just Republicans that are too ashamed to admit that they’re Republicans, thinking it absolves them of any responsibility yet they pull the lever for Trump or whomever they have to say n an effort to prevent the Democrats from winning an election.

We see right through you.

Libertarians are people who want to watch the world burn.

I'm still trying to figure out what a "libertarian" is...

(except a privileged racist bigot who pretends not to be interested in politics because their life is comfortable enough to not have to).

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 8 May 2023 - 15:16

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Libertarians are people who want to watch the world burn.
I'm still trying to figure out what a "libertarian" is...

(except a privileged racist bigot who pretends not to be interested in politics because their life is comfortable enough to not have to).

Looked it up to be sure, however it seems to be very versatile lable, with multitude of possible beliefs beyond the belief of "liberty" as the ultimate value.

Pretty sure there are not too many Socialist Libertarians, but it is one branch of Libertarian thought.

The positions I was aware of, a minimum of government control of all aspects of society, as close to anarchy as possible, which is what today's Libertarians are often found, turns out to be a splinter of total Libertarian thought.

As it is most professed Libertarians I have known are socially liberal and at the same time believe in the power of free markets. This highly idealized position is unworkable in the real world and tends to, as you say Bob, devolved into support for Republicans and neoliberal economics. When push comes to shove Libertarians tend to value free markets over liberal social policies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20libertarian,and%20a%20classical%20liberal%20himself.

by **Robert J Sakimano** Mon 8 May 2023 - 15:19

Trapper Gus wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what a "libertarian" is...

(except a privileged racist bigot who pretends not to be interested in politics because their life is comfortable enough to not have to).

Looked it up to be sure, however it seems to be very versatile lable, with multitude of possible beliefs beyond the belief of "liberty" as the ultimate value.

Pretty sure there are not too many Socialist Libertarians, but it is one branch of Libertarian thought.

The positions I was aware of, a minimum of government control of all aspects of society, as close to anarchy as possible, which is what today's Libertarians are often found, turns out to be a splinter of total Libertarian thought.

As it is most professed Libertarians I have knowh are socially liberal and at the same time believe in the power of free markets. This highly idealized position is unworkable in the real world and tends to,as you say Bob, devolved into support for Republicans and neoliberal economics. When push comes to shove Libertarians tend to value free markets over liberal social policies.

I'd prefer to witness what they do vs. some sanitized version of who they claim to be.

like the Republican party.. I suspect if you looked them up, they'd tell you that they're good christians who believe in the sanctity of human life while upholding the Constitution and working tirelessly to promote freedom for all across the fruited plain.

by **Trapper Gus** Mon 8 May 2023 - 15:22

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Trapper Gus wrote:

Looked it up to be sure, however it seems to be very versatile lable, with multitude of possible beliefs beyond the belief of "liberty" as the ultimate value.

Pretty sure there are not too many Socialist Libertarians, but it is one branch of Libertarian thought.

The positions I was aware of, a minimum of government control of all aspects of society, as close to anarchy as possible, which is what today's Libertarians are often found, turns out to be a splinter of total Libertarian thought.

As it is most professed Libertarians I have knowh are socially liberal and at the same time believe in the power of free markets. This highly idealized position is unworkable in the real world and tends to,as you say Bob, devolved into support for Republicans and neoliberal economics. When push comes to shove Libertarians tend to value free markets over liberal social policies.
I'd prefer to witness what they do vs. some sanitized version of who they claim to be.

like the Republican party.. I suspect if you looked them up, they'd tell you that they're good christians who believe in the sanctity of human life while upholding the Constitution and working tirelessly to promote freedom for all across the fruited plain.

My experience is that they are agnostics or atheists.

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