Santa Fe School Shooting.

kingstonlake wrote:Not that you'll hold any gun manufacturer accountable like you do the media, Goose.

So your assertion is that gun manufacturers should advertise that their guns are inaccurate and fail to kill?

Of those ads the only one I see that fits your criteria is the "man card reissued"

The 1st shows that it's available in multiple calibers which has been a part of gun advertising for a century or more.
The 2nd is definitely advertising the "cool" thing.
The 3rd is referring to accuracy - that seems fair for a rifle ad.
The 4th refers to adaptability - again seems fair for a rifle ad.  
The 5th is at least partially a copy of the 2nd.
The 6th is again advertising accuracy.

I'd never seen any of those since I don't read whatever publications they were in.   I'd say the 2nd one is in poor taste given the atmosphere of today.   The rest of them I don't have a problem with.   Guns are made to kill when used correctly.  

If they shoot accurately that's something a manufacturer strives for.   Manufacturers have always sold "adaptable" guns.    Think about the Rugers out there in .410 and .22 or shotguns with barrels for BBs and slugs.

I really don't know what you want the manufacturers to do?   Because 28 rifles have been used in mass killings in 36 years they should stop making them?

LooseGoose wrote:I will now await brainiac Travis to post calling Mother Jones a right wing rag.

Oh I don’t read your rambling bullshit anymore. Who cares. You’re a massive piece of shit. Go fuck yourself.

You seem to be inferring I'm blaming the media for the murders which isn't true. I'm blaming the media for inspiring the copycats.

My point there in case you missed it is that in the majority of those ads the gun manufacturers are stressing the same things they have for 100 years.

You bring up whether I would blame them like I do the media, my point remains - they've not changed their ads but the media has definitely changed their coverage of these crimes. There was no wall to wall coverage at the time of the crime nor for days afterward.

There were exceptions to that rule as there is with any rule, there was Whitman at UT would be one but that was newspaper coverage and not 3-6 networks and all other media.

And to be very clear the media is not at fault for the crime. The jackass doing the killing is. My point was the media has some culpability for inspiring copy cats that want the "fame".

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:I will now await brainiac Travis to post calling Mother Jones a right wing rag.

Oh I don’t read your rambling bullshit anymore. Who cares. You’re a massive piece of shit. Go fuck yourself.

Stan would be proud of the way you elevate the discussion.

LooseGoose wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Oh I don’t read your rambling bullshit anymore. Who cares. You’re a massive piece of shit. Go fuck yourself.

Stan would be proud of the way you elevate the discussion.

There’s no such thing as a discussion with you.

Don’t you have dead service members you should be shitting on? Scurry along rat, get to it.

Cameron wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

I'm onboard if applied to all items.   Guns, Cars, Boats, knives, pressure cookers, pipes - if something you own is used in a crime off to prison you go.

When our right to keep and bear pressure cookers is enshrined in the constitution, I will consider that a cogent and valid counterpoint.

I wasn't trying to make a valid counterpoint. I was pointing out that holding someone responsible for a crime committed by a thief is silly.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

Stan would be proud of the way you elevate the discussion.

There’s no such thing as a discussion with you.

Don’t you have dead service members you should be shitting on? Scurry along rat, get to it.

You continue to literally drag your friend into every discussion and attempt to cover yourself with him. Then you blame me.
I didn't bring your friend into it, you did. Own it. Show some responsibility. Now continue to not read what I write.

LooseGoose wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

There’s no such thing as a discussion with you.

Don’t you have dead service members you should be shitting on? Scurry along rat, get to it.

You continue to literally drag your friend into every discussion and attempt to cover yourself with him. Then you blame me.
I didn't bring your friend into it, you did. Own it. Show some responsibility. Now continue to not read what I write.

That’s because you haven’t apologized. Because you’re an idiot mostly. But also a person that has deep deep seeded problems.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

You continue to literally drag your friend into every discussion and attempt to cover yourself with him. Then you blame me.
I didn't bring your friend into it, you did. Own it. Show some responsibility. Now continue to not read what I write.

That’s because you haven’t apologized. Because you’re an idiot mostly. But also a person that has deep deep seeded problems.

I think you wanted "seated" there.

I haven't apologized because none is called for.

You tried to guilt trip me, I don't play that game.

Sorry I've disappointed you by not caving to your bullshit.

Continue to not read.

LooseGoose wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

That’s because you haven’t apologized. Because you’re an idiot mostly. But also a person that has deep deep seeded problems.

I think you wanted "seated" there.

I haven't apologized because none is called for.

You tried to guilt trip me, I don't play that game.

Sorry I've disappointed you by not caving to your bullshit.

Continue to not read.

Lol. What a world class dipshit.

My thoughts and prayers are with gun owners during this very difficult time.

LooseGoose wrote:You seem to be inferring I'm blaming the media for the murders which isn't true.   I'm blaming the media for inspiring the copycats.

Yet you don't blame gun manufacturers for inspiring killers when there seems to be a clear trend in the weapon they chose for their killing sprees.

LooseGoose wrote:My point there in case you missed it is that in the majority of those ads the gun manufacturers are stressing the same things they have for 100 years.

And media coverage has been around just as long but you only hold them accountable for evolving, but not GM's.

LooseGoose wrote:You bring up whether I would blame them like I do the media, my point remains - they've not changed their ads but the media has definitely changed their coverage of these crimes.   There was no wall to wall coverage at the time of the crime nor for days afterward.

You don't think GM's have changed the adaptability of the product? LOL

LooseGoose wrote:There were exceptions to that rule as there is with any rule, there was Whitman at UT would be one but that was newspaper coverage and not 3-6 networks and all other media.

And theres wall to wall round the clock lobbying and $ infiltration from gun manufacturers to the NRA, but I'm assuming that doesn't count.

LooseGoose wrote:And to be very clear the media is not at fault for the crime.   The jackass doing the killing is.   My point was the media has some culpability for inspiring copy cats that want the "fame".

I've yet to see a shooter confirm this.

Goose - can you post some pictures of dead babies or poor gun owners having their guns confiscated so we can get this thread moved??

Thanks, dude.

kingstonlake wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:You seem to be inferring I'm blaming the media for the murders which isn't true.   I'm blaming the media for inspiring the copycats.

Yet you don't blame gun manufacturers for inspiring killers when there seems to be a clear trend in the weapon they chose for their killing sprees.

I don't see where the actual facts support the "clear trend" statement. Do you have any statistics to support that? The "weapons used" stats in the Mother Jones dataset would contradict that claim.

kingstonlake wrote:You don't think GM's have changed the adaptability of the product? LOL

I didn't say that at all. I said they had been advertising the adaptability of their weapons for a long time which is true. They may have changed the ways they adapt but that begs the question of what difference does it make? If it has a bayonet lug does it make it more lethal? If it has a folding stock does it make it more lethal? Etc, etc - adding more gadgets to a swiss army knife doesn't make it more deadly. The only thing I can think of that might make it more deadly is a scope mount and that's been around for 100+ years so is nothing new.

kingstonlake wrote:And theres wall to wall round the clock lobbying and $ infiltration from gun manufacturers to the NRA, but I'm assuming that doesn't count.

How does this make a weapon more lethal? How does lobbying Congress make the killing machines more cool? That's what we were talking about here. I think you overstate how much $$ the NRA spends compared to others.

NRA Lobbying
2018 $971,000
2017 $5M
2016 $3.2M

That won't buy you much in Washington. All available at OpenSecrets.org



That spending is dwarfed by other industries.

kingstonlake wrote:I've yet to see a shooter confirm this.

If you've not seen this I'll try to remember to link this the next time I run across it.

But even this latest shooter think about the black trench coat, the pressure cooker bombs, etc - a near duplicate of Columbine.

I know the Parkland shooter referenced Columbine.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Goose - can you post some pictures of dead babies or poor gun owners having their guns confiscated so we can get this thread moved??

Thanks, dude.

You, Travis, Pylon and Stan should start your own thread. Once it falls to shit you can blame me for not wanting to discuss things.

LooseGoose wrote:

Cameron wrote:
When our right to keep and bear pressure cookers is enshrined in the constitution, I will consider that a cogent and valid counterpoint.

I wasn't trying to make a valid counterpoint.   I was pointing out that holding someone responsible for a crime committed by a thief is silly.

Well, that sounds to my ears like a counterpoint, but now I'm quibbling.

Saying nobody can have guns is a nonstarter, I get that. However, most everyone agrees that there are certain people who should not have guns. Are you in agreement there?

So if there are certain people who should not have guns, we need to put protocols in place to prevent them from getting guns. Holding people liable for crimes committed with their guns would incentivize gun owners to take precautions to ensure that their guns don't end up in the wrong hands.

I'm willing to buy in to the premise that responsible gun owners are not the problem (and I'm trying to avoid patting myself on the back too hard for making such a generous concession). I'm merely coming up with ideas that will encourage responsible gun ownership. Does that seem reasonable? 

You don't like my idea, that's fine. Do you have an alternative proposal? Or is the status quo fine with you? Is media coverage really the only issue we need to address? Or could that merely be one piece of a larger puzzle?

LooseGoose wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I've yet to see a shooter confirm this.

If you've not seen this I'll try to remember to link this the next time I run across it.

But even this latest shooter think about the black trench coat, the pressure cooker bombs, etc - a near duplicate of Columbine.

I know the Parkland shooter referenced Columbine.

You know what, I'm going to concede this point. There may be indeed be a correlation between these school shootings and the copycat theory.

THEY ALL USE FUCKING GUNS. So let's discuss this copy cat theory more.....
Eh, nevermind. The media is the inspiration....

LooseGoose wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Goose - can you post some pictures of dead babies or poor gun owners having their guns confiscated so we can get this thread moved??

Thanks, dude.

You, Travis, Pylon and Stan should start your own thread. Once it falls to shit you can blame me for not wanting to discuss things.

Lol you’re such a hilarious coward

Media
Copycats
Cars
Pressure cookers
Trench coats
Social media
Knives

LooseGoose wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:And theres wall to wall round the clock lobbying and $ infiltration from gun manufacturers to the NRA, but I'm assuming that doesn't count.

How does this make a weapon more lethal? How does lobbying Congress make the killing machines more cool? That's what we were talking about here. I think you overstate how much $$ the NRA spends compared to others.

NRA Lobbying
2018 $971,000
2017 $5M
2016 $3.2M

That won't buy you much in Washington. All available at OpenSecrets.org



That spending is dwarfed by other industries.

Does that include money donated to campaign finance committees?

NigelUno wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

How does this make a weapon more lethal? How does lobbying Congress make the killing machines more cool? That's what we were talking about here. I think you overstate how much $$ the NRA spends compared to others.

NRA Lobbying
2018 $971,000
2017 $5M
2016 $3.2M

That won't buy you much in Washington. All available at OpenSecrets.org



That spending is dwarfed by other industries.

Does that include money donated to campaign finance committees?

No, and it doesn't include the money funneled to the NRA by gun manufacturers

Hey Goose. They ever catch that rogue mod that was deleting all of your posts?

LooseGoose wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote:Goose - can you post some pictures of dead babies or poor gun owners having their guns confiscated so we can get this thread moved??

Thanks, dude.

You, Travis, Pylon and Stan should start your own thread. Once it falls to shit you can blame me for not wanting to discuss things.

how about posting a picture of a baby grinder? That would help.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Media
Copycats
Cars
Pressure cookers
Trench coats
Social media
Knives

Too many doors!!!!

LooseGoose wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:And theres wall to wall round the clock lobbying and $ infiltration from gun manufacturers to the NRA, but I'm assuming that doesn't count.

How does this make a weapon more lethal? How does lobbying Congress make the killing machines more cool? That's what we were talking about here. I think you overstate how much $$ the NRA spends compared to others.

NRA Lobbying
2018 $971,000
2017 $5M
2016 $3.2M

That won't buy you much in Washington. All available at OpenSecrets.org



That spending is dwarfed by other industries.

Bump stocks make weapons more lethal.

Are you still in favor of banning them?

Is the NRA?

LooseGoose wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:I've yet to see a shooter confirm this.

If you've not seen this I'll try to remember to link this the next time I run across it.

But even this latest shooter think about the black trench coat, the pressure cooker bombs, etc - a near duplicate of Columbine.

I know the Parkland shooter referenced Columbine.

If you're convinced these are copycat crimes influenced by "media" coverage, what is your solution? How are you going to enforce a blackout? Will it include TV, internet, social media? Everything?

And I'll ask you this again...(in the context of your copycat theory)...are you still in favor of banning bump stocks? You were at one time, but you're strangely silent on it EVERY time I ask you about it (now). Wouldn't banning bump stocks be a good idea in light of your copycat theory?

Cameron wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

I wasn't trying to make a valid counterpoint.   I was pointing out that holding someone responsible for a crime committed by a thief is silly.

Well, that sounds to my ears like a counterpoint, but now I'm quibbling.

Saying nobody can have guns is a nonstarter, I get that. However, most everyone agrees that there are certain people who should not have guns. Are you in agreement there?

So if there are certain people who should not have guns, we need to put protocols in place to prevent them from getting guns. Holding people liable for crimes committed with their guns would incentivize gun owners to take precautions to ensure that their guns don't end up in the wrong hands.

I'm willing to buy in to the premise that responsible gun owners are not the problem (and I'm trying to avoid patting myself on the back too hard for making such a generous concession). I'm merely coming up with ideas that will encourage responsible gun ownership. Does that seem reasonable? 

You don't like my idea, that's fine. Do you have an alternative proposal? Or is the status quo fine with you? Is media coverage really the only issue we need to address? Or could that merely be one piece of a larger puzzle?

Well I actually sat yesterday and typed up a fairly long post after Stan asked - didn't bother to post it. Nothing really new in it, just the same things that have been talked about over and over.

I've never argued that all should have guns, of course there are people that shouldn't be armed.

And as far as your guns not ending up in wrong hands, I have real problems with that. And I'm not talking about the guy that leaves a machine gun on the kitchen table. I'm talking about the guy that has his hunting guns locked in his house, in a closet and they're stolen. Are you seriously proposing that he go to prison for a thief breaking in, stealing his guns and killing someone? That's insane and exactly the kind of proposal that will get nothing done.

The thing is by definition "responsible" gun owners don't commit mass killings. People demonize the NRA night and day but the number of mass killers that are/were NRA members is zero to my knowledge. The very people you should want to work with are the ones being demonized - and guess what? After the media, the politicians and everyone else demonizes them they're not too inclined to work with you, there's a distinct lack of trust.

Neither party really wants to deal with this which is unfortunate. The R's worry about losing votes from a core constituency, the D's like to use the issue to stir their base. Think I'm being too partisan there? Again I refer you back to Jan2009-Feb2010 - the D's had complete control of the US Government. Please link me to one thing they did on this issue they're supposedly so passionate about?

IF you want to read it I'll post what I started yesterday. It's not complete, it's not perfect - it's not very detailed but it's a list of things that could be done. A list that I think would get support of the NRA and most gun owners.

kingstonlake wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

If you've not seen this I'll try to remember to link this the next time I run across it.

But even this latest shooter think about the black trench coat, the pressure cooker bombs, etc - a near duplicate of Columbine.

I know the Parkland shooter referenced Columbine.

You know what, I'm going to concede this point. There may be indeed be a correlation between these school shootings and the copycat theory.

THEY ALL USE FUCKING GUNS. So let's discuss this copy cat theory more.....
Eh, nevermind. The media is the inspiration....

So I point out where you may be mistaken that shooters have referenced previous shooters and this is your response.

Again, please tell me how I don't want to discuss this rationally?

This is not a new theory and tends to apply to school shooters more than mass shooters in general.

Also as a PS - The Columbine killers may have been copycatting the Moses Lake shooter - a 14 year old that kiiled 3 back in '96. Wearing a black trench coat, etc....same MO.

NigelUno wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

How does this make a weapon more lethal? How does lobbying Congress make the killing machines more cool? That's what we were talking about here. I think you overstate how much $$ the NRA spends compared to others.

NRA Lobbying
2018 $971,000
2017 $5M
2016 $3.2M

That won't buy you much in Washington. All available at OpenSecrets.org



That spending is dwarfed by other industries.

Does that include money donated to campaign finance committees?

Can you read? Stan would be disappointed in you.

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Media
Copycats
Cars
Pressure cookers
Trench coats
Social media
Knives

And another of the chorus that has no interest in a discussion involving facts not hysteria.

Call me out again WBH.

kingstonlake wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Does that include money donated to campaign finance committees?

No, and it doesn't include the money funneled to the NRA by gun manufacturers

Jesus Christ.   You mentioned Lobbying by the NRA.   I post facts to show it's not much $$ in the overall scheme of things.   So now you criticize because it doesn't include other $$.   Tell you what I'll try to get those facts for you too.   It must be too much work for some that cares as much as you.

Continual moving of the goal posts.

Robert J Sakimano wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

You, Travis, Pylon and Stan should start your own thread. Once it falls to shit you can blame me for not wanting to discuss things.

how about posting a picture of a baby grinder? That would help.

Bob - proud to make jokes about aborting babies. Yep, he cares more about life than any of us.

You know Goose, if you or anybody doesn’t think we have a problem in this country with the manufacture and distribution of guns, you’ve either lost your mind or you’re trolling. The only way most people like you change their way of thinking is to be directly effected. I can’t and won’t wish that on anyone, so it’s best just not to talk about it. I think guys like you are crazy, you think guys like me are. And we go around in circles. I hope nobody we live is ever hurt by this shit, but in America, because nothing will get done, all we can do is hope.

LooseGoose wrote:

Robert J Sakimano wrote: how about posting a picture of a baby grinder? That would help.

Bob - proud to make jokes about aborting babies. Yep, he cares more about life than any of us.

Supreme Court disagrees about “life”. Maybe we should stop people from master bating.

DWags wrote:

LooseGoose wrote:

Bob - proud to make jokes about aborting babies. Yep, he cares more about life than any of us.

Supreme Court disagrees about “life”. Maybe we should stop people from master bating.

Yeah, masturbation is just like abortion. Christ Wags.

OK, just for KL, this took hours of in depth research:

NRA contributions and spending:

Compared to the $750,000,000 to $1Billion spent per party in each election by the various Presidential campaigns over the last 2-3 cycles that's again pretty small potatoes.

LooseGoose wrote:Compared to the $750,000,000 to $1Billion spent per party in each election by the various Presidential campaigns over the last 2-3 cycles that's again pretty small potatoes.

Why are we moving on from copy cat killers to lobbying being small potatoes. Slow down a little. I'm not constantly by my phone debating, I have a life.