The 2020 Presidential campaign.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-09, 15:16

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: the biggest thing the right wing knuckle-draggin' misogynists can say about Big Gretch is her Nazi-like approach to saving lives in Michigan.

Oh, by the way, they're also "pro life"

But if Whitmer took a Nazi-like approach, wouldn't that endear her to the Trump supporters?

they don't like women.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-08-09, 21:17

Rocinante wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Things move fast.

Trump appointed Postmaster General announced a major reorganization on Friday August 7, 2020.
New organization chart making the Postmaster General key in decisions and reassigning over 20 experienced executive level personnel.

https://billmoyers.com/story/friday-night-massacre-at-us-postal-service-as-postmaster-general-a-major-trump-donor-ousts-top-officials/

On Saturday, August 8, 2020, Trump signed 4 executive orders including a reduced unemployment benefit ($400 Per week vs $600) and more importantly, a cut of payroll taxes including a cut Social Security and Medicare withholding taxes. He the promised to make Social Security and Medicare cuts permanent if he wins in November.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-pledged-to-permanently-scrap-the-payroll-taxes-used-to-fund-social-security-and-medicare-if-he-wins-re-election/ar-BB17JRjG

Welcome to the 21st Century Gilded Age if Trump wins in November.

Hey Miami, is this isolated or systematic? I’m having a hard time knowing

And I'm having a hard time understanding what that has to do with gerrymandering's impact on a presidential election (which is what you were talking about when "isolated incidents" came up, if you don't remember).

Also, isn't Trump the one complaining about mail in voting? Either way, it is a good example of my actual point, that both sides are convinced that the other side is going come up with some sinister way to illegally steal the election.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-09, 21:36

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Rocinante wrote:

Hey Miami, is this isolated or systematic? I’m having a hard time knowing

And I'm having a hard time understanding what that has to do with gerrymandering's impact on a presidential election (which is what you were talking about when "isolated incidents" came up, if you don't remember).

Gerrymandering is a form of voter suppression up and down the ticket. If someone feels like their US House district has already been decided based on how the lines are drawn, they're less likely to vote.

Of course, I don't know anyone more passionate about their House race than the presidential race, but I think it inherently creates and environment where some Amercians completely disengage.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-08-09, 21:51

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:

And I'm having a hard time understanding what that has to do with gerrymandering's impact on a presidential election (which is what you were talking about when "isolated incidents" came up, if you don't remember).

Gerrymandering is a form of voter suppression up and down the ticket. If someone feels like their US House district has already been decided based on how the lines are drawn, they're less likely to vote.

Of course, I don't know anyone more passionate about their House race than the presidential race, but I think it inherently creates and environment where some Amercians completely disengage.

Someone isn't going to vote for President because their preferred candidate for the House isn't going to win. Not even Roc was arguing that, and you don't sound like you buy it much yourself. And does anyone really think that will be so widespread as to be systematic? That's actually a good example of what I was talking about where people are creating/speculating about crazy notions that will lead to their guy getting screwed. Which isn't to say that everything is a crazy notion. But this is up there with suggesting that R governors aren't going to let Biden win and suggesting that foreign governments will fake mail in ballots with bar codes.

by **Rocinante** 2020-08-09, 22:58

I’m talking about systematic voter suppression by republicans on multiple fronts. It doesn’t take all of them to work, or even for any of them to work well, for the overall strategy to work.

The Gerrymandering thing was just a point I was making about how I don’t like it when people say that Gerrymandering has “nothing to do” with presidential elections. I contend it does based on resource allocation in gerrymandered districts.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-10, 06:20

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Gerrymandering is a form of voter suppression up and down the ticket. If someone feels like their US House district has already been decided based on how the lines are drawn, they're less likely to vote.

Of course, I don't know anyone more passionate about their House race than the presidential race, but I think it inherently creates and environment where some Amercians completely disengage.

Someone isn't going to vote for President because their preferred candidate for the House isn't going to win. Not even Roc was arguing that, and you don't sound like you buy it much yourself. And does anyone really think that will be so widespread as to be systematic? That's actually a good example of what I was talking about where people are creating/speculating about crazy notions that will lead to their guy getting screwed. Which isn't to say that everything is a crazy notion. But this is up there with suggesting that R governors aren't going to let Biden win and suggesting that foreign governments will fake mail in ballots with bar codes.

you were asking.. I provided you with my assessment.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-10, 10:46

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:If his team determines that the electorate value above all else the “presidential-ness” of his VP, she’s definitely on the short short list. She’s got that “motherly” vibe. Stable, calm demeanor, and doesn’t come across as entitled (the anti Hillary).

I don't know man. I like Big Gretch but her Dad was like CEO of BCBS for 20+ years.

It's our best shot to have a Spartan as president of the United States. I'm hoping it happens.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-10, 12:48

Looks like Trump wants to be put up into Mt. Rushmore. I think it would be a perfect statement on the incredible beginnings and the rapid decline of this country.

by AvgMSUJoe 2020-08-10, 15:58

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:
I don't know man. I like Big Gretch but her Dad was like CEO of BCBS for 20+ years.

Remember when Romney's big story was about his humble beginnings? (Govs kid, buildings named after his dad) ... That worked for 40 some % of the populace.

Plus 30% of the population think Trump is self-made... No one is going to look up Gretch's dad's job.

That said, I doubt she will exactly push the Elizabeth Warren anti-corruption policy. (being a product of "insider" politics)...

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-10, 16:02

Listening to Valenti he just declared he hates both Trump and Biden and won't vote for either.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-08-10, 16:07

steveschneider wrote:Looks like Trump wants to be put up into Mt. Rushmore. I think it would be a perfect statement on the incredible beginnings and the rapid decline of this country.

I assume that they're just trolling when they leak stuff like this.

Though if he finds out a way to do it by Executive Order, I'm sure he would try.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-10, 16:14

MiamiSpartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Looks like Trump wants to be put up into Mt. Rushmore. I think it would be a perfect statement on the incredible beginnings and the rapid decline of this country.

I assume that they're just trolling when they leak stuff like this.

Though if he finds out a way to do it by Executive Order, I'm sure he would try.

I take all that he says at face value, and I'm sure if someone allows it to happen it will happen.

by **GRR Spartan** 2020-08-10, 17:00

steveschneider wrote:Listening to Valenti he just declared he hates both Trump and Biden and won't vote for either.

So what?

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-10, 18:36

steveschneider wrote:Listening to Valenti he just declared he hates both Trump and Biden and won't vote for either.

well that leaves an indelible impression on me.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-10, 18:39

Apparently the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator pulled some sort of publicity stunt and had to be whisked away by the Secret Service. The 2020 Presidential campaign. 502811600

The 2020 Presidential campaign. 502811600

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-10, 21:10

GRR Spartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Listening to Valenti he just declared he hates both Trump and Biden and won't vote for either.

So what?

It's his choice and I support it and to echo what Bob says America is a very stupid country.

by **GRR Spartan** 2020-08-11, 00:32

Biden has painted himself into a corner with his VP pick and the black community is going to use its considerable sway to press him to name a black woman.

Having a late interview withGov Whitmer, regardless of the reason, has put blood in the water. So much so I think my favorite Senator Duckworth is a person of color but not the right ethnicity this time.

Susan Rice has never held elective office and doesn't have the political chits to collect. Senator Harris and Congresswoman Bass are both from CA which is a lock for the Democrats.

My second pick is Congresswoman Val Demings from Florida who was Orlando Chief of Police.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-11, 05:52

GRR Spartan wrote:Biden has painted himself into a corner with his VP pick and the black community is going to use its considerable sway to press him to name a black woman.

Having a late interview withGov Whitmer, regardless of the reason, has put blood in the water. So much so I think my favorite Senator Duckworth is a person of color but not the right ethnicity this time.

Susan Rice has never held elective office and doesn't have the political chits to collect. Senator Harris and Congresswoman Bass are both from CA which is a lock for the Democrats.

My second pick is Congresswoman Val Demings from Florida who was Orlando Chief of Police.

I just hope she's likeable.

the GOP and mainstream media are going to tear Biden and his VP apart regardless.

And if you think that's bad, just wait until they come up with their "October Surprise" about them.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-11, 06:50

GRR Spartan wrote:Biden has painted himself into a corner with his VP pick and the black community is going to use its considerable sway to press him to name a black woman.

Having a late interview withGov Whitmer, regardless of the reason, has put blood in the water. So much so I think my favorite Senator Duckworth is a person of color but not the right ethnicity this time.

Susan Rice has never held elective office and doesn't have the political chits to collect. Senator Harris and Congresswoman Bass are both from CA which is a lock for the Democrats.

My second pick is Congresswoman Val Demings from Florida who was Orlando Chief of Police.

The left is acting like a bunch of weenies over this vp pick. I’ve read numerous article that African Americans preferred Elizabeth Warren and she polls well with them. They view her as being well equipped to deal with structural racism. If she’s picked though you will have a melt down of people that are upset it wasn’t an African American and butt hurt Sanders fans still upset about the primary. If he picks K Harris there will be a melt down because she was a prosecutor . If it’s Rice there will be a melt down because of her rich husband and Benghazi. If the pick is perceived as too far to the left or too far to the right it’s going to be a melt down. Repubs will always be at an advantage in this stuff. When Trump picked Pence his polling was in the dumps, but he was a white gut that would help Trump with the Christian vote so here he is. His main job is to kiss Trumps ass at the Covid Task Force press conferences.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-11, 08:13

the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator said yesterday that the 1917 pandemic (there wasn't one) ended World War II (how could it end a war 30 years later if there wasn't one?).

but, yes, let's make sure Biden's female VP nominee is likeable and knows when to smile.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-08-11, 08:15

Well, Whitmer is scheduled to speak on the first night and Harris and Duckworth on the last night, for whatever that's worth...probably not much, since there is a 3rd day slot for the as yet unnamed VP candidate.

But I kind of think the recent Whitmer talk is more about setting her up for 2024. It's clear that the Dem party see her as a future star, but probably needs more experience to really make a national run.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2020-08-11, 08:18

steveschneider wrote:
GRR Spartan wrote:Biden has painted himself into a corner with his VP pick and the black community is going to use its considerable sway to press him to name a black woman.

Having a late interview withGov Whitmer, regardless of the reason, has put blood in the water. So much so I think my favorite Senator Duckworth is a person of color but not the right ethnicity this time.

Susan Rice has never held elective office and doesn't have the political chits to collect. Senator Harris and Congresswoman Bass are both from CA which is a lock for the Democrats.

My second pick is Congresswoman Val Demings from Florida who was Orlando Chief of Police.

The left is acting like a bunch of weenies over this vp pick. I’ve read numerous article that African Americans preferred Elizabeth Warren and she polls well with them. They view her as being well equipped to deal with structural racism. If she’s picked though you will have a melt down of people that are upset it wasn’t an African American and butt hurt Sanders fans still upset about the primary. If he picks K Harris there will be a melt down because she was a prosecutor . If it’s Rice there will be a melt down because of her rich husband and Benghazi. If the pick is perceived as too far to the left or too far to the right it’s going to be a melt down. Repubs will always be at an advantage in this stuff. When Trump picked Pence his polling was in the dumps, but he was a white gut that would help Trump with the Christian vote so here he is. His main job is to kiss Trumps ass at the Covid Task Force press conferences.

Steve it’s usually mostly white people who say things like “he has to pick a black woman so that it drives African Americans to the polls” as if African Americans are some monolith that only get motivated by race. (Let’s not talk about who thinks African Americans are a monolith on second thought)

It’s either early stage pundit disease where they don’t realize what they are saying is a little, eh, iffy on the broad generalizations because their favorite pundits said it and they are just parroting or it’s just a little bit of racism. I think it’s probably the former.

by **kingstonlake** 2020-08-11, 08:19

GRR Spartan wrote:Biden has painted himself into a corner with his VP pick and the black community is going to use its considerable sway to press him to name a black woman.

Having a late interview withGov Whitmer, regardless of the reason, has put blood in the water. So much so I think my favorite Senator Duckworth is a person of color but not the right ethnicity this time.

Susan Rice has never held elective office and doesn't have the political chits to collect. Senator Harris and Congresswoman Bass are both from CA which is a lock for the Democrats.

My second pick is Congresswoman Val Demings from Florida who was Orlando Chief of Police.

The longer this takes the more I feel Whitmer or possibly Warren may end up the choice. It has to be recognized that America has chosen the path of calm seas. Harris or Rice are a deviation from that. Biden is polling well because his campaign understands that letting Trump be Trump is a winning strategy. Introducing Harris or Rice lets all kinds of new oxygen into the room for the media and Trump to seize upon. Whitmer has the appearance of being the mom who volunteers at your kids school. Suburban mothers will eat that shit up and thats who Biden needs to keep in the fold. Not saying its right regarding Harris or Rice, its just the climate we're in. I'm just getting this feeling the country wants a return to normalcy. I said a couple weeks ago Warren might actually be the pick but even she may prove to far outside the current milk-toast strategy that seems to be working.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-11, 08:26

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

The left is acting like a bunch of weenies over this vp pick. I’ve read numerous article that African Americans preferred Elizabeth Warren and she polls well with them. They view her as being well equipped to deal with structural racism. If she’s picked though you will have a melt down of people that are upset it wasn’t an African American and butt hurt Sanders fans still upset about the primary. If he picks K Harris there will be a melt down because she was a prosecutor . If it’s Rice there will be a melt down because of her rich husband and Benghazi. If the pick is perceived as too far to the left or too far to the right it’s going to be a melt down. Repubs will always be at an advantage in this stuff. When Trump picked Pence his polling was in the dumps, but he was a white gut that would help Trump with the Christian vote so here he is. His main job is to kiss Trumps ass at the Covid Task Force press conferences.

Steve it’s usually mostly white people who say things like “he has to pick a black woman so that it drives African Americans to the polls” as if African Americans are some monolith that only get motivated by race. (Let’s not talk about who thinks African Americans are a monolith on second thought)

It’s either early stage pundit disease where they don’t realize what they are saying is a little, eh, iffy on the broad generalizations because their favorite pundits said it and they are just parroting or it’s just a little bit of racism. I think it’s probably the former.

Dude, this is a historic swill moment we sort of agree. I’m not sure I assign the problem to pundits, I think the message is out there in the NYT and Was Post and I’ve seen it in the Hill that a lot of African Americans prefer Warren. I think it comes down to that complaint from the African American community that white people dont listen to them. A lot of white people are just assuming they’d prefer an African American woman.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2020-08-11, 08:37

So it also goes both ways steve. African Americans will say they prefer a white boring person because they think that it will make white people less likely to vote for a reality star they like (which to be fair, is a rational concern). So everybody is just worried about the other group being a bunch of idiots.

I do not think that everyone is racist and that’s why they think that. The only other answer I can think of is pundit disease because that’s the kind of terms that pundits like to think in when they get in their natural habitat of inside one of 8 boxes on a panel inside your tv

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-11, 08:51

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:So it also goes both ways steve. African Americans will say they prefer a white boring person because they think that it will make white people less likely to vote for a reality star they like (which to be fair, is a rational concern). So everybody is just worried about the other group being a bunch of idiots.

I do not think that everyone is racist and that’s why they think that. The only other answer I can think of is pundit disease because that’s the kind of terms that pundits like to think in when they get in their natural habitat of inside one of 8 boxes on a panel inside your tv

Van Jones warns that if he picks Whitmer then we are going down the 2016 road. No matter who he picks there’s going to be a melt down and I stand by my original take the left are being a bunch of weenies about this.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-11, 08:56

steveschneider wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:So it also goes both ways steve. African Americans will say they prefer a white boring person because they think that it will make white people less likely to vote for a reality star they like (which to be fair, is a rational concern). So everybody is just worried about the other group being a bunch of idiots.

I do not think that everyone is racist and that’s why they think that. The only other answer I can think of is pundit disease because that’s the kind of terms that pundits like to think in when they get in their natural habitat of inside one of 8 boxes on a panel inside your tv

Van Jones warns that if he picks Whitmer then we are going down the 2016 road. No matter who he picks there’s going to be a melt down and I stand by my original take the left are being a bunch of weenies about this.

America is a stupid country.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-11, 09:03

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

Van Jones warns that if he picks Whitmer then we are going down the 2016 road. No matter who he picks there’s going to be a melt down and I stand by my original take the left are being a bunch of weenies about this.
America is a stupid country.

There are evolutionary advantages to being stupid in America.

by **kingstonlake** 2020-08-11, 09:18

I guess there’s a couple angles. Nominate a phone charger as your VP because people are so sick of Trump they’d vote for you anyway. Or pick someone who you think brings in the most potential voters to your cause of beating Trump. Seems like this election is unlike any others. Job 1 seems to be defeating trump and less about an a idealistic movement for the party.

by Rick Saunders 2020-08-11, 09:19

I still say Biden should name a team. Say this is my VP nominee and these are my cabinet nominees. The US has a population with diverse perspectives and experiences and so does my team. I am going to make the decisions but I am going to listen to my team and by extension, you.

by **Travis of the Cosmos** 2020-08-11, 09:31

kingstonlake wrote:I guess there’s a couple angles. Nominate a phone charger as your VP because people are so sick of Trump they’d vote for you anyway. Or pick someone who you think brings in the most potential voters to your cause of beating Trump. Seems like this election is unlike any others. Job 1 seems to be defeating trump and less about an a idealistic movement for the party.

That sounds phenomenally like every other election of all time. Like, if I were tasked with coming up with a phrase to make it sound like this election isn’t in anyway different than past ones, I think that’s what I’d say.

by **steveschneider** 2020-08-11, 09:35

kingstonlake wrote:I guess there’s a couple angles. Nominate a phone charger as your VP because people are so sick of Trump they’d vote for you anyway. Or pick someone who you think brings in the most potential voters to your cause of beating Trump. Seems like this election is unlike any others. Job 1 seems to be defeating trump and less about an a idealistic movement for the party.

I'm a single issue voter in 2020 and all I care about is defeating Trumpism. You'd think it would be enough motivation to drive Americans to the polls but I'm not so sure it is.

by **kingstonlake** 2020-08-11, 09:41

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:I guess there’s a couple angles. Nominate a phone charger as your VP because people are so sick of Trump they’d vote for you anyway. Or pick someone who you think brings in the most potential voters to your cause of beating Trump. Seems like this election is unlike any others. Job 1 seems to be defeating trump and less about an a idealistic movement for the party.

That sounds phenomenally like every other election of all time. Like, if I were tasked with coming up with a phrase to make it sound like this election isn’t in anyway different than past ones, I think that’s what I’d say.

It depends on which side of the two party system you’re viewing it from. It certainly wasn’t job 1 for Clinton in 2016.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2020-08-11, 10:28

Rick Saunders wrote:I still say Biden should name a team. Say this is my VP nominee and these are my cabinet nominees. The US has a population with diverse perspectives and experiences and so does my team. I am going to make the decisions but I am going to listen to my team and by extension, you.

Yes

by **kingstonlake** 2020-08-11, 10:31

Rick Saunders wrote:I still say Biden should name a team. Say this is my VP nominee and these are my cabinet nominees. The US has a population with diverse perspectives and experiences and so does my team. I am going to make the decisions but I am going to listen to my team and by extension, you.

I like the idea. I’d assume one person would have to be appointed as the one who would become President in a worst case scenario.

Also, do 8 people get to debate Pence?

by **Floyd Robertson** 2020-08-11, 10:39

kingstonlake wrote:
Rick Saunders wrote:I still say Biden should name a team. Say this is my VP nominee and these are my cabinet nominees. The US has a population with diverse perspectives and experiences and so does my team. I am going to make the decisions but I am going to listen to my team and by extension, you.

I like the idea. I’d assume one person would have to be appointed as the one who would become President in a worst case scenario.

Also, do 8 people get to debate Pence?

If the Reagan-Ford co-presidency ticket actually happened they would have been unstoppable for three terms. This group of eight could rule for like 48 years.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-08-11, 10:42

Rick Saunders wrote:I still say Biden should name a team. Say this is my VP nominee and these are my cabinet nominees. The US has a population with diverse perspectives and experiences and so does my team. I am going to make the decisions but I am going to listen to my team and by extension, you.

I like this.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-08-11, 11:06

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

The left is acting like a bunch of weenies over this vp pick. I’ve read numerous article that African Americans preferred Elizabeth Warren and she polls well with them. They view her as being well equipped to deal with structural racism. If she’s picked though you will have a melt down of people that are upset it wasn’t an African American and butt hurt Sanders fans still upset about the primary. If he picks K Harris there will be a melt down because she was a prosecutor . If it’s Rice there will be a melt down because of her rich husband and Benghazi. If the pick is perceived as too far to the left or too far to the right it’s going to be a melt down. Repubs will always be at an advantage in this stuff. When Trump picked Pence his polling was in the dumps, but he was a white gut that would help Trump with the Christian vote so here he is. His main job is to kiss Trumps ass at the Covid Task Force press conferences.

Steve it’s usually mostly white people who say things like “he has to pick a black woman so that it drives African Americans to the polls” as if African Americans are some monolith that only get motivated by race. (Let’s not talk about who thinks African Americans are a monolith on second thought)

It’s either early stage pundit disease where they don’t realize what they are saying is a little, eh, iffy on the broad generalizations because their favorite pundits said it and they are just parroting or it’s just a little bit of racism. I think it’s probably the former.

It's black people saying that he has to pick a black woman, as much or more than white people, Travis. 100 black leaders/celebrities penned an article saying that. They said (or maybe it was a separate comment by a black leader) that if he doesn't, it will be 2016 all over again. I've seen many other black leaders saying similar things.

Also, there was record turnout among blacks for Obama. And then blacks did not turnout well at all for Hillary, and even a little bit better turnout would have flipped the election (hence the "2016 all over again" comment). Sorry, I know you don't want to talk about 2016, but blame the 100 black leaders that brought it up. The fact is that data shows black people are more likely to turn out and vote for black candidates. This isn't some supposition of a monolith, it is actually a factual representation of what has happened over and over again.

by **Cameron** 2020-08-11, 11:09

Jesus Christ. I mention that Kamala Harris is unlikable one fucking time a week ago, and now Bob is saying likable every other word.

by **Cameron** 2020-08-11, 11:14

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Steve it’s usually mostly white people who say things like “he has to pick a black woman so that it drives African Americans to the polls” as if African Americans are some monolith that only get motivated by race. (Let’s not talk about who thinks African Americans are a monolith on second thought)

It’s either early stage pundit disease where they don’t realize what they are saying is a little, eh, iffy on the broad generalizations because their favorite pundits said it and they are just parroting or it’s just a little bit of racism. I think it’s probably the former.

It's black people saying that he has to pick a black woman, as much or more than white people, Travis. 100 black leaders/celebrities penned an article saying that. They said (or maybe it was a separate comment by a black leader) that if he doesn't, it will be 2016 all over again. I've seen many other black leaders saying similar things.

Also, there was record turnout among blacks for Obama. And then blacks did not turnout well at all for Hillary, and even a little bit better turnout would have flipped the election (hence the "2016 all over again" comment). Sorry, I know you don't want to talk about 2016, but blame the 100 black leaders that brought it up. The fact is that data shows black people are more likely to turn out and vote for black candidates. This isn't some supposition of a monolith, it is actually a factual representation of what has happened over and over again.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you cited one questionable example and then say it happens over and over again. Can you point to an example other than uniquely terrible Hillary?

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