Re: The 2020 Presidential campaign.

by **Floyd Robertson** 2020-09-03, 18:05

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:And wasn't Trump telling people yesterday to commit federal crimes by attempting to vote twice, once in person and once absentee? More fuel for the election is rigged & flawed argument.

To be fair, he was saying that the system would catch it and not let someone vote a second time "if the system is as good as they say." So he was effectively saying to test the system. But I believe that attempting to do so would still be illegal. So maybe he wants his fans to get busted trying so that he can have evidence of fraud.

I admit that I didn't see the context of his comment before running with it, but you're right that he wants evidence of fraud. He'll settle for the spectre of fraud thought.

Nevertheless...

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by **Jake from State Farm** 2020-09-03, 19:08

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote:And wasn't Trump telling people yesterday to commit federal crimes by attempting to vote twice, once in person and once absentee? More fuel for the election is rigged & flawed argument.

To be fair, he was saying that the system would catch it and not let someone vote a second time "if the system is as good as they say." So he was effectively saying to test the system. But I believe that attempting to do so would still be illegal. So maybe he wants his fans to get busted trying so that he can have evidence of fraud.

Both parties have lawyers waiting in the wings. The best we can hope for is the losing candidate taking the high road and not dragging the results out until January or beyond. Somehow I don't think that will happen on the Trump side.

by **Floyd Robertson** 2020-09-03, 19:14

lol, no wonder he's losing the military vote.

[tw]1301634784448438272[/tw]

by **kingstonlake** 2020-09-03, 19:17

Read the article earlier today. If accurate, wow.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-03, 19:31

Yeah, me too. 4 different sources say the same thing. That's fucking infuriating.

by **steveschneider** 2020-09-03, 19:42

I believe it but all he has to do is say 'fake news' and his cult won't care. Trump and his followers are truly the worst generation.

by **steveschneider** 2020-09-03, 19:49

MiamiSpartan wrote:Yeah, me too. 4 different sources say the same thing. That's fucking infuriating.

Then it’s true.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 06:47

The worst thing about the article is that it wasn't at all shocking.

Decent people knows he has contempt for the military, America, traditional American values and what made America great.

It's obviously disheartening to see it in black and white but this afternoon the collective narrative will move on to the next scandal.

by **steveschneider** 2020-09-04, 07:03

Robert J Sakimano wrote:The worst thing about the article is that it wasn't at all shocking.

Decent people knows he has contempt for the military, America, traditional American values and what made America great.

It's obviously disheartening to see it in black and white but this afternoon the collective narrative will move on to the next scandal.

We’ve seen how he treated John McCain and his family, the Russian bounties, the disabled, his views on women, locking mothers in cages...let’s all stop being shocked by his behavior.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-04, 07:26

Floyd Robertson wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:

To be fair, he was saying that the system would catch it and not let someone vote a second time "if the system is as good as they say." So he was effectively saying to test the system. But I believe that attempting to do so would still be illegal. So maybe he wants his fans to get busted trying so that he can have evidence of fraud.

I admit that I didn't see the context of his comment before running with it, but you're right that he wants evidence of fraud. He'll settle for the spectre of fraud thought.

Trump on May 15: "If you told a Republican to vote twice, they'd be sick!"

Trump the last couple of days speaking to Republicans: "Go vote twice to make sure it's counted."

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-04, 07:37

steveschneider wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:The worst thing about the article is that it wasn't at all shocking.

Decent people knows he has contempt for the military, America, traditional American values and what made America great.

It's obviously disheartening to see it in black and white but this afternoon the collective narrative will move on to the next scandal.

We’ve seen how he treated John McCain and his family, the Russian bounties, the disabled, his views on women, locking mothers in cages...let’s all stop being shocked by his behavior.

Yeah, I wasn't shocked, just pissed at yet another level of disgusting behavior.

I've seen Thomas Friedman (great NYT columnist...sorry Bob) use this analogy, that if you sling mud at Trump, it will stick, but because he's so covered in mud already, you don't really notice.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 08:37

steveschneider wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:The worst thing about the article is that it wasn't at all shocking.

Decent people knows he has contempt for the military, America, traditional American values and what made America great.

It's obviously disheartening to see it in black and white but this afternoon the collective narrative will move on to the next scandal.

We’ve seen how he treated John McCain and his family, the Russian bounties, the disabled, his views on women, locking mothers in cages...let’s all stop being shocked by his behavior.

once you brag about raping women, mock disabled people, are okay with bounties on the heads of US soldiers, perfectly happy with 190,000+ dead Americans to what you think is a 'hoax', there is nothing that could shock me.

the thing is, he is exactly who decent Americans knew he was 4 years ago. You can't even blame him. The fault lies squarely on the mainstream media that normalize him in the name of ratings, the christian GOP who is perfectly happy with the direction the country is taking, and the pathetic, disgusting racist bigots who still support him.

by **steveschneider** 2020-09-04, 09:47

MiamiSpartan wrote:
steveschneider wrote:

We’ve seen how he treated John McCain and his family, the Russian bounties, the disabled, his views on women, locking mothers in cages...let’s all stop being shocked by his behavior.

Yeah, I wasn't shocked, just pissed at yet another level of disgusting behavior.

I've seen Thomas Friedman (great NYT columnist...sorry Bob) use this analogy, that if you sling mud at Trump, it will stick, but because he's so covered in mud already, you don't really notice.

I punished myself and went onto fb to see the reactions of folks I grew up with and were educated in the Michigan public school system. It's a friggin cult. This doesn't even phase them just makes them angrier. Vote people!

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-04, 14:41

Today: Trump is furiously denying that he ever called the fallen soldiers and marines losers or suckers and that he loves the military and has done more for the military than almost any other president.

Also Today: Trump administration orders Stars and Stripes, the military-run newspaper since the Civil War, to cease operations.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 15:18

MiamiSpartan wrote:Today: Trump is furiously denying that he ever called the fallen soldiers and marines losers or suckers and that he loves the military and has done more for the military than almost any other president.

Also Today: Trump administration orders Stars and Stripes, the military-run newspaper since the Civil War, to cease operations.

why do you think these administration insiders fail to come out publicly?

I just can't imagine having a lifelong career as a respected public servant, often a career military officer, and just allowing this pathetic piece of garbage to denigrate me, my career, my fellow military colleagues, consistently

seems like it would be a relief to be able to publicly distance yourself from a disgusting piece of filth like our christian hero.

by **Rocinante** 2020-09-04, 15:21

I don’t know who Biden is trying to influence with his full court press on this.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 15:28

Rocinante wrote:I don’t know who Biden is trying to influence with his full court press on this.

what do you mean? what's going on.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-09-04, 15:30

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:Today: Trump is furiously denying that he ever called the fallen soldiers and marines losers or suckers and that he loves the military and has done more for the military than almost any other president.

Also Today: Trump administration orders Stars and Stripes, the military-run newspaper since the Civil War, to cease operations.

why do you think these administration insiders fail to come out publicly?

I just can't imagine having a lifelong career as a respectful public servant, often a career military officer, and just allowing this pathetic piece of garbage to denigrate me, my career, my fellow military colleagues, consistently.

For military personnel, it is about maintaining standard civil-military relations. There are very strong norms in the U.S. military, and in some cases actual rules, that de-incentivize or prohibit the military from engaging in partisan politics. Even at moments like this. That is not an entirely bad thing. You do not want a politicized military that thinks they have a role in politics. We are already starting to look a little too much like some of those unstable Latin American presidential systems that saw military intervention in civilian politics.

As for non-military people working in his administration, there are probably two answers. The first is that they are complete opportunists who know loyalty will bring big rewards. Remember, one of his objectives is to loot the country and enrich himself and his family and friends (and punish his enemies along the way). The second is that he is a useful idiot. This is likely what explains the loyalty of high level officials like the VP, AG, and others. They probably think he is a complete moron with poor character and morals, but they know he does not mind pushing their vision of a more conservative, christian, and nationalist country. So they stick with him to try and remake American government in their vision.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 15:35

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:

why do you think these administration insiders fail to come out publicly?

I just can't imagine having a lifelong career as a respectful public servant, often a career military officer, and just allowing this pathetic piece of garbage to denigrate me, my career, my fellow military colleagues, consistently.

For military personnel, it is about maintaining standard civil-military relations. There are very strong norms in the U.S. military, and in some cases actual rules, that de-incentivize or prohibit the military from engaging in partisan politics. Even at moments like this. That is not an entirely bad thing. You do not want a politicized military that thinks they have a role in politics. We are already starting to look a little too much like some of those unstable Latin American presidential systems that saw military intervention in civilian politics.

As for non-military people working in his administration, there are probably two answers. The first is that they are complete opportunists who know loyalty will bring big rewards. Remember, one of his objectives is to loot the country and enrich himself and his family and friends (and punish his enemies along the way). The second is that he is a useful idiot. This is likely what explains the loyalty of high level officials like the VP, AG, and others. They probably think he is a complete moron with poor character and morals, but they know he does not mind pushing their vision of a more conservative, christian, and nationalist country. So they stick with him to try and remake American government in their vision.

well, yeah - all of that would be fine and dandy under a President Mitt Romney or President Jeb Bush.

but this piece of christian trash is literally, deliberately destroying the country that the military is sworn to protect.

maybe I'm old fashioned, but I don't get it. Maybe they're not as honorable as I would hope/want them to be.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-09-04, 15:36

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

For military personnel, it is about maintaining standard civil-military relations. There are very strong norms in the U.S. military, and in some cases actual rules, that de-incentivize or prohibit the military from engaging in partisan politics. Even at moments like this. That is not an entirely bad thing. You do not want a politicized military that thinks they have a role in politics. We are already starting to look a little too much like some of those unstable Latin American presidential systems that saw military intervention in civilian politics.

As for non-military people working in his administration, there are probably two answers. The first is that they are complete opportunists who know loyalty will bring big rewards. Remember, one of his objectives is to loot the country and enrich himself and his family and friends (and punish his enemies along the way). The second is that he is a useful idiot. This is likely what explains the loyalty of high level officials like the VP, AG, and others. They probably think he is a complete moron with poor character and morals, but they know he does not mind pushing their vision of a more conservative, christian, and nationalist country. So they stick with him to try and remake American government in their vision.
well, yeah - all of that would be fine and dandy under a President Mitt Romney or President Jeb Bush.

but this piece of christian trash is literally, deliberately destroying the country that the military is sworn to protect.

maybe I'm old fashioned, but I don't get it. Maybe they're not as honorable as I would hope/want them to be.

Posted by a person who has never lived under military rule.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 15:38

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
well, yeah - all of that would be fine and dandy under a President Mitt Romney or President Jeb Bush.

but this piece of christian trash is literally, deliberately destroying the country that the military is sworn to protect.

maybe I'm old fashioned, but I don't get it. Maybe they're not as honorable as I would hope/want them to be.

Posted by a person who has never lived under military rule.

if their special brand of casual support of the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is 'military rule', I'm pretty thankful for that.

by **Rocinante** 2020-09-04, 15:45

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Rocinante wrote:I don’t know who Biden is trying to influence with his full court press on this.
what do you mean? what's going on.

The losers and suckers thing. He and surrogates have been on it all day. I just feel like questioning Trumps character is so.... like “duh”. He’s a piece of shit. Not sure anyone’s switching or deciding to vote because of that. At this point he should be hammering on the criminal activity and the fact that his ignorance and cruelty will kill more Americans.

This military fetishization is old, to me. And won’t change anyone’s mind. But it could suck the enthusiasm out of the left vote. Sorry steve for acknowledging reality.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-09-04, 15:59

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Posted by a person who has never lived under military rule.
if their special brand of casual support of the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is 'military rule', I'm pretty thankful for that.

Once the military no longer sees itself as subordinate to civilian rule, and freely intervenes in politics, it is kind of like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once militaries take an active role in governing a country, they tend to remain in that role. I think the place you are afraid we are headed is not entirely dissimilar from how the country would look if the military played an active role in governing.

The reason I take this all the way to military rule is because some former officials, ones who command great respect, have already violated norms and spoken out. Mattis wrote an op-ed in June discussing how the president is a threat to the Constitution. I have no problem with that, but it did not do much to decrease 45's popularity among Republican voters or congressional Republicans. It seems like trying to inform the public through articles or interviews does not do much good. So beyond that, what are you asking the military to do? Are you saying they intervene and remove the president? I can say that comparatively, that means they are unlikely to easily return government to civilian rule, and if they do, they will always remain close and ready to intervene again.

Honestly, this is up to us. We need to do more than vote and/or complain on message boards. Those are the easiest things to do and require little work.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-04, 16:53

Rocinante wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote: what do you mean? what's going on.

The losers and suckers thing. He and surrogates have been on it all day. I just feel like questioning Trumps character is so.... like “duh”. He’s a piece of shit. Not sure anyone’s switching or deciding to vote because of that. At this point he should be hammering on the criminal activity and the fact that his ignorance and cruelty will kill more Americans.

This military fetishization is old, to me. And won’t change anyone’s mind. But it could suck the enthusiasm out of the left vote. Sorry steve for acknowledging reality.

It is so much more than character, it is about the main reaponsibility of the President, that of Commander In Chief. It is the Commander In Chief saying that about people who are among the biggest heroes this country has ever had. People who were just fucking kids, many of whom were drafted not volunteers, that gave their lives. No one deserves more respect.

If calling that out, being upset about it as someone who has worked closely with the military for decades and whose late son served in war, is going to bother the left, then Jesus Christ, they need to get a grip.

by **MiamiSpartan** 2020-09-04, 16:55

Spot on, Turtleneck.

by **Rocinante** 2020-09-04, 17:51

Not everyone is steeped in military lore and gratitude. What I’m saying is politically what is the upside. Because every decision about every word out of his mouth needs to be about that. I try to deal with things how they are not how I wish they were.

by **Rocinante** 2020-09-04, 18:10

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
if their special brand of casual support of the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is 'military rule', I'm pretty thankful for that.

Once the military no longer sees itself as subordinate to civilian rule, and freely intervenes in politics, it is kind of like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once militaries take an active role in governing a country, they tend to remain in that role. I think the place you are afraid we are headed is not entirely dissimilar from how the country would look if the military played an active role in governing.

The reason I take this all the way to military rule is because some former officials, ones who command great respect, have already violated norms and spoken out. Mattis wrote an op-ed in June discussing how the president is a threat to the Constitution. I have no problem with that, but it did not do much to decrease 45's popularity among Republican voters or congressional Republicans. It seems like trying to inform the public through articles or interviews does not do much good. So beyond that, what are you asking the military to do? Are you saying they intervene and remove the president? I can say that comparatively, that means they are unlikely to easily return government to civilian rule, and if they do, they will always remain close and ready to intervene again.

Honestly, this is up to us. We need to do more than vote and/or complain on message boards. Those are the easiest things to do and require little work.

The other side of that though is that we were taught from basic and reminded frequently that it was our duty to disobey an unlawful order. It’s obviously hard to know in the moment what orders are unlawful, because it’s usually subtler than “go invade that American city.” Thou not much subtler.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 20:13

Turtleneck wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:
if their special brand of casual support of the racist, bigoted christian sexual predator is 'military rule', I'm pretty thankful for that.

Once the military no longer sees itself as subordinate to civilian rule, and freely intervenes in politics, it is kind of like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once militaries take an active role in governing a country, they tend to remain in that role. I think the place you are afraid we are headed is not entirely dissimilar from how the country would look if the military played an active role in governing.

The reason I take this all the way to military rule is because some former officials, ones who command great respect, have already violated norms and spoken out. Mattis wrote an op-ed in June discussing how the president is a threat to the Constitution. I have no problem with that, but it did not do much to decrease 45's popularity among Republican voters or congressional Republicans. It seems like trying to inform the public through articles or interviews does not do much good. So beyond that, what are you asking the military to do? Are you saying they intervene and remove the president? I can say that comparatively, that means they are unlikely to easily return government to civilian rule, and if they do, they will always remain close and ready to intervene again.

Honestly, this is up to us. We need to do more than vote and/or complain on message boards. Those are the easiest things to do and require little work.

I'm just for honesty and self-respect.

Again, it's possible that I'm just old-fashioned.

by **Jake from State Farm** 2020-09-04, 20:14

Cadet Bonespurs. Need I say anything more?

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-04, 20:49

Jake from State Farm wrote:Cadet Bonespurs. Need I say anything more?

imagine how disgusted our christian hero is my Sen. Duckworth.

She's smart, she's a minority, she's a female and she's a war hero.

Everything he hates.

by **Turtleneck** 2020-09-05, 15:57

Trump picked up a key endorsement: bin Laden’s niece.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/05/osama-bin-ladens-niece-says-only-trump-can-prevent-another-9-11/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

by **Rocinante** 2020-09-05, 22:49

THE BEST.

IS YET.

TO COMMMMMMMMMMMMMME!

by **Floyd Robertson** 2020-09-06, 08:03

Trump boat parade swamped: Multiple MAGA vessels sink in Texas lake

The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 13 502811600

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by **kingstonlake** 2020-09-06, 09:15

Figures. It’s Lake Travis.....

by **Floyd Robertson** 2020-09-06, 19:09

Surprise. The PG appointed by Trump to thwart the delivery of mail-in ballots appears to have committed crimes to get there.

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by **GRR Spartan** 2020-09-06, 21:20

Trump trying to set up Gov Whitmer as the person responsible for MSU and umaa not playing Big Ten football in 2020.

I suspect its more knowing Trump won MI by 10,704 votes 2016 and Whitmer beat Schuette by 406,600 votes in 2018.

by **kingstonlake** 2020-09-07, 08:36

Floyd Robertson wrote:Trump boat parade swamped: Multiple MAGA vessels sink in Texas lake

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The 2020 Presidential campaign. - Page 13 19d61d10

by **WhiteBoyHatcher** 2020-09-07, 12:18

I've got a pretty bad feeling about what all is going to play out. This thing is just getting more toxic. His supporters are rabid and many of them are embracing hatred and violence. I hope I am wrong but I could see a scenario where he loses, is forced down from his throne, but continues to incite division and carries a significant following leading to years of unrest. The moderates won't all follow but the cult will. It is a cult. Literally. Fits the definition.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2020-09-07, 12:40

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:I've got a pretty bad feeling about what all is going to play out. This thing is just getting more toxic. His supporters are rabid and many of them are embracing hatred and violence. I hope I am wrong but I could see a scenario where he loses, is forced down from his throne, but continues to incite division and carries a significant following leading to years of unrest. The moderates won't all follow but the cult will. It is a cult. Literally. Fits the definition.

they should just go ahead and set up camp in Mio.

by **steveschneider** 2020-09-07, 12:51

I could watch those boats sink all day. Five boats down. [lol]

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