Electric Vehicles - Information & Updates

TravelinMan wrote:

kingstonlake wrote:

Bredo, you don’t think the logistics of where lithium is located plays a role in EV production? lol, ok.

By your logic we'll all be lucky to escape the economic powerhouse of Bolivia.

Just don't come crying to me when the working class is destroyed.

Reagan destroyed the working class, enjoy the apoplecticics

20% of vehicles sold globally were EV's last year.

The article covers the effects of renewable energy in all forms but the vehicle sales is its headline.

MSM Link

GRR Spartan wrote:Whining EV’s will kill the working class is like complaining that steam  power looms destroyed the spinning wheel industry, Napoleon III  installing gas street lighting in Paris destroyed lamplighter jobs  or more recently  powder coating destroyed jobs and took away overtime from any American who worked in industrial painting .

Just more  Trumpite/GOP blather  pandering to the chumps  who will vote for him and his shills who have no issue driving electrics if they’re driving a golf cart.

For renewable electric generation the economics are already in renewables favor.  It is cheaper to build and operate renewable energy generation plants than it is to operate existing fossil fuel plants.

In the development of EV's and the nation with systems to support them, such as charging stations, we are still on the expensive part (capital investment wise) of the development curve, but as the vehicles from China show, that is dropping quickly.

Trump, and the existing dinosaur fossil fuel industry, cannot change the economics, even if Trump were to be elected President, which he will not be.

Zurn wrote:Imagine a world where all we had were electric vehicles. Then a new technology came along with vehicles that were half the price, weighed half as much, tires lasted twice as long, had a range double or triple that of EVs and could be refueled in 10% of the time as compared to an EV.

As long as it caused less environmental damage than BEV's we can talk, but ICE's cause more, so that dog won't hunt.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

As long as it caused less environmental damage than BEV's we can talk, but ICE's cause more, so that dog won't hunt.

Think again, my friend.

Oh, and oil exploration, extraction & refining is pollution free.

Please. Do. Better.

Ford sales of EV's up almost 100% in February.

Guess what made that happen?

https://www.bridgemi.com/business-watch/michigans-auto-industry-awaits-ev-revolution-flux

This article is pretty spot on about the disruptive transition to EV's covering the points that the brilliant posters on this board spotted years ago.

It will happen not just for environmental reasons but because in the long run mass produced EV's will be cheaper that ICE's.

One point they seem to have missed, but the very smart Swillers haven't, is what a massive disruption this will be for the petrochemical/oil companies.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

It will happen not just for environmental reasons but because in the long run mass produced EV's will be cheaper that ICE's.

Define "long run".

With China OEM's selling EV's for less than 17k that would be today.

US new vehicle sales will be pushing 10% EV's this year and the US is the lagging adapter, as EU countries and Asia countries are higher percentages of EV sales than that.

Battery costs are dropping quickly right now, also and the land rush to less expensive and higher kwhrs per unit weight batteries is pushing range higher plus the ongoing rollout of the 900v battery architecture is pushing charging times way down.

US manufacturers are being forced to move to less expensive, aka cheap, EV's models to compete in global markets which will accelerate the sales of these vehicles in the US, and the rapid tech advances are causing used EV prices to drop rapidly which will create an affordable used EV market in the US for older and less capable EVs.

EV charging stations are being built where the business model is being based around the charging time with chargers located in a drive in building with associated services, aka restaurant food, restrooms, convenience store shopping and more.  Other  business models will be tried as the power of the marketplace sorts out the ones which make a profit.

It will require years for the US fueling market to transition from all gas to all charging just because typical vehicle life is 15 years, however, as gas use falls it will reach an inflection point where the loss of mass production of gas will cause gas prices to rise, which will accelerate to final phase of the transaction.

https://theconversation.com/a-battery-price-war-is-kicking-off-that-could-soon-make-electric-cars-cheaper-heres-how-225165

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/18/ev-battery-prices-dropping-a-lot-this-year-next/amp/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17108906016548&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

https://techxplore.com/news/2024-03-healable-cathode-potential-solid-state.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-06/tesla-helped-spur-a-long-range-electric-vehicle-boom

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1142507_20-year-ev-battery-9-minute-charging-in-samsung-sdi-roadmap

https://insideevs.com/features/711547/split-pack-electriv-vehicle-battery/

https://wolfstreet.com/2024/03/07/gasoline-demand-has-a-long-term-structural-problem-plunging-per-capita-consumption/

https://jalopnik.com/a-million-evs-were-sold-last-month-as-sales-rise-69-per-1851254972

https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/ford-affordable-evs-open-to-partnering/

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/14/us-ev-sales-up-385-since-2019-normal-ice-vehicle-sales-down-14/

https://autos.yahoo.com/scientists-develop-chocolate-inspired-ev-200000733.html?guccounter=1

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00325-z

https://racer.com/2024/02/07/850hp-potential-for-indycar-once-hybrids-go-live/

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article284533695.html

https://slate.com/business/2023/09/ev-charging-stations-gas-electric-cars.html

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/groundbreaking-innovation-could-extend-ev-range-to-over-3-000-miles-on-a-single-charge

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/evgo-receives-first-shipment-of-buy-america-350-kw-dc-fast-chargers-from-delta-electronics/

https://www.the-sun.com/motors/9107833/charging-anxiety-evs-ford-ceo-jim-farley/

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/18/its-getting-easier-for-us-car-owners-to-go-electric/

https://electrek.co/2023/09/19/toyota-reveals-next-gen-ev-production-line-catch-up-tesla/

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/12/stellantis-opens-new-battery-development-facility-aims-for-50-lighter-battery-packs/

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/19/ev-charging-industry-improvements.html

https://insideevs.com/news/687469/ornl-fast-charging-ev-battery-new-elecrolyte/

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45189317/toyota-solid-state-battery-timeline/

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/aluminum-battery-ev/

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/17/why-ev-batteries-keep-getting-cheaper-cleaner/

https://www.vehiclesuggest.com/toyota-new-battery-tech-achieves-932-mile-range-in-10-minutes-of-charging/

https://electrek.co/2023/09/14/ev-demand-future-gas-cars/

https://apnews.com/sponsored?prx_t=05kIACoBhAbyMRA&ntv_acpl=1123183&ntv_acsc=2&ntv_ot=1&ntv_gsscm=576*4;550*4;2022*4;584*3;9993*4;&ntv_ui=ab4f70de-9c8c-4e49-b782-243c2976d3a5&ntv_ht=qKkBZQA

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Engineers-Unveil-Game-Changing-Thin-Film-Solid-Sate-Battery.html

https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/zfs-magnet-free-ev-motor

https://www.thedrive.com/features/why-axial-flux-motors-are-the-key-to-small-fun-evs

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-develop-a-truly-solid-battery-electrolyte-with-high-performance/

https://www.the-sun.com/motors/8992098/bought-electric-car-instantly-regretted-it/

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/07/my-chevy-bolt-end-of-summer-report/

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-previously-unknown-pathway-batteries-high.html

https://www.electrive.com/2023/08/30/bosch-starts-production-of-800-volt-drives/

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/massive-mineral-deposit-discovery-could-040602239.html

Zurn wrote:https://www.mlive.com/news/2024/03/stellantis-lays-off-about-400-salaried-workers-most-of-them-in-michigan.html

Stellantis laying off 2% of its US engineering and technology staff due to high costs of EVs.

Maybe Trump was correct in predicting a bloodbath in the US auto industry if EVs are forced into the market.

While they may be telling the truth surely you know enough about how corporations manage PR to be at least skeptical of why they are laying off engineers when they will need those engineers to develop their new vehicles.

My first guess is they are .moving some of their engineering to low cost countries such as India & China like they have been doing for years, now.

Are EV's cheaper than gas vehicles over time?

Study says right now that depends.

Cumulative recurring costs for a midsize SUV across platforms—traditional gasoline, hybrid and electric—are higher in some cities when taking key factors into account: financing, annual fees, insurance, maintenance, repairs and fuel costs.

https://news.umich.edu/electric-vs-gasoline-vehicles-is-ev-ownership-competitive-in-your-area/

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:Are EV's cheaper than gas vehicles over time?

Study says right now that depends.

Bidenomics:  force people to buy cars that are less capable and maybe not cheaper than current cars.  

No one is being forced to buy anything.

The Inflation Reduction Act is designed to encourage EV development, to try to catch up with other countries in this regard, China being one, however it is definitely the carrot, not the stick method.

This is a similar governmental boost which was given to renewable energy generation during the Obama administration, which caused development in renewable energy generation means to the point that it is less expensive to generate electricity with renewable energy than with fossil fuels or nuclear.

As development of electric vehicles continues their performance will improve and their costs will drop.  They will become the vehicle of choice due to these things.

TravelinMan wrote:Another soulless EV champion weighs in.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/27/opinions/automatic-vs-manual-cars-electric-pollution-hockenos/index.html

But these are fighting words here:

They may not know it, but both these European connoisseurs and young Americans are of a mind with Robert M. Pirsig’s protagonist in his classic 1970s philosophical novel, “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,” who feels at one with his motorbike because he understands how it functions. Just pushing a button is a superficial copout.

Robert Pirsig's “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,” is about the Zen, not the structure of the motorcycle.  The structure of the motorcycle as a particular type of motorcycle has no meaning to what Pirsig is writing about, which is Zen.

A Zen master travels through three stages of awareness.

1 - Awareness of the forest but not the trees (Riding the Motorcycle)
2 - A deep awareness of every detail of the trees (Learning and doing maintenance on the motorcycle)
3 - Awareness of the forest and the trees with an overall awareness of the first. (Riding the Motorcycle after learning how it works)

Any object, or for that matter learned action, can be substituted for "forest" & "trees" in Zen awareness.  Pirsig used the motorcycle as he has a Zen type of awareness regarding it, and because it allowed him to use it as a running analogy for what he really wanted to say.  

The details of the motorcycle and its operations were not a specific advocation for one type of transmission over any other type.  As Prisig says; to paraphrase: "First we try one thing, and if that doesn't work, we try something else."

Pirsig could has just as easily called it "Zen and the Art of Electric Vehicle Maintenance" and used an EV as his metaphor of reality.

AvgMSUJoe wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

No one is being forced to buy anything.

The Inflation Reduction Act is designed to encourage EV development, to try to catch up with other countries in this regard, China being one, however it is definitely the carrot, not the stick method.

This is a similar governmental boost which was given to renewable energy generation during the Obama administration, which caused development in renewable energy generation means to the point that it is less expensive to generate electricity with renewable energy than with fossil fuels or nuclear.

As development of electric vehicles continues their performance will improve and their costs will drop.  They will become the vehicle of choice due to these things.

But but but the TV commercials from the American Petroleum Institute and American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers Association say different.

Well, this is different from the technical issues I started this thread for however the politics are becoming more of an issue as the oil industry is seeing EV's as a threat to their businesses.

Much like various businesses in the past, tobacco being one, the industries which will be displaced by EV's are fighting back politically. My opinion is they haven't got much of a chance in the long term, due to the economic advantages EV's will have when they are a more mature product and the politics will not hold back the tide, so to speak, but they can make more money in the short term if they can slow down the switch to EV's.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2024/03/30/future-highway-ev-charging-test/73112078007/

This business model might be the one that is accepted the fastest by more drivers as it changes the fewest habits, this looks like a winning plan by GM.

https://jalopnik.com/do-evs-produce-lower-carbon-emissions-than-gas-cars-it-1851373092

Ford is crediting a new rear motor for the Mustang Mach-E’s increase in range across the board, along with a bunch of other tweaks that add up to a nice efficiency bump.

https://electrek.co/2024/04/09/ford-2024-mustang-mach-e-range-quicker-acceleration-faster-charging/

Why I sometimes post links to articles about electric motor development.

BYD’s cheapest EV, the new Seagull, starts at just $9,700 (69,800 yuan). And it’s already creating a stir among legacy automakers. Ford’s CEO Jim Farley called the low-cost EV “pretty damn good,” as he warned rivals.

The company’s latest Blade batteries have an energy density of up to 150Wh/kg. BYD’s next-gen EV battery is expected to reach upwards of 190Wh/kg.

This could enable fully electric models to exceed 621 miles (1,000 km) CLTC range, which would be the highest among LFP batteries. The report claims BYD will release the new battery as soon as August 2024.

https://electrek.co/2024/04/08/byd-launch-next-gen-ev-battery-more-range-lower-price/

Zurn wrote:Biden giving the American auto market to China.  

Biden seeing the writing on the wall and jump starting the American Vehicle manufacturing industry with the IRA granting billions to  build the EV infrastructure in the US.

FWIW Trump's idea is to shut the US industry off from the rest of the globe so it can continue to build green house gas spewing dinosaurs which they will sell at a minimum of 3 times the cost of the modern EV's.  It will also cause then to lose all their global market share by having the wrong product.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:

FWIW Trump's idea is to shut the US industry off from the rest of the globe so it can continue to build green house gas spewing dinosaurs which they will sell at a minimum of 3 times the cost of the modern EV's.  

Trapper must be taking night classes on gaslighting.

Talk about Zurn self owning himself in a post, this is it.  

Gaslighting is telling you something that isn't true, since Trump wants to block Chinese EV's with exorbitant taxes and he wants to allow the US to keep building ICE vehicles while cutting off support for EV development, as noted, the only gaslighting is Zurn calling my post gaslighting.

It would take years and years of study to reach Zurn's level of proficiency of shameless gaslighting.

TravelinMan wrote:

Zurn wrote:

Bloody Mary's already this morning Bob?

There's nothing wrong with a good Bloody Mary.  Extra spicy with a splash of pickle juice.  

Zenders has a 16 ounce one with celery, pickle, green olive, a cube of picklejack cheese and a hollow sausage to drink it with and it comes with a 4 ounce beer chaser.

Zurn wrote:

Trapper Gus wrote:[ green house gas spewing dinosaurs which they will sell at a minimum of 3 times the cost of the modern EV's.  

Post Biden, the average cost of a new car is $48,000.

Please bump the thread when the average cost of a new EV is $16,000

Somehow if that happens, I suspect that no bumping will be necessary.

Right now, vehicle manufacturers who are not on the bleeding edge of EV's, most of them, except for a few in China, are having cows because they are years behind the curve in being able to compete with 9k EV prices in China, which is the largest single market for vehicles on the globe.