Re: Baltimore citizens are frustrated

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-01, 12:20

Shit just got real...

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 635660636602721309-PRINCE-

Prince records song for Baltimore.

by **Rocinante** 2015-05-01, 12:55

Well I came in super late so to be sure, I had no idea what you were arguing.

Heh.

But yeah... a straw man is an invented argument that you attribute to your opponent and you then defeat to bolster the completely unrelated actual argument.

by **Snake Plissken** 2015-05-01, 13:17

InTenSity wrote:
TBH, I never use the term STRAW MAN, mainly because I'm not really sure what it means.

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by **Giant Moose** 2015-05-01, 13:28

Snake Plissken wrote:
InTenSity wrote:
TBH, I never use the term STRAW MAN, mainly because I'm not really sure what it means.

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 Straw-art

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-02, 01:18

Rocinante wrote:Well I came in super late so to be sure, I had no idea what you were arguing.

Heh.

But yeah... a straw man is an invented argument that you attribute to your opponent and you then defeat to bolster the completely unrelated actual argument.

Too often I end up doing the exact same thing so I'd be a hypocrite to blast you over it.

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-03, 11:58

Robert J Sakimano wrote:solid article here from a great American and Fox News correspondent.. discusses the injured police officers and damaged buildings.. never once mentions the black kid whose spine was snapped while in police custody..

I'm glad someone is looking out for traditional American values at the expense of a few dead black kids..

If It Loots Like a Thug, It's a Thug

We obviously won't know the facts and the details for awhile and I'm certainly no lawyer, but... this doesn't seem like a good move for the prosecutor. As time goes on I'm finding myself more firmly in the corner of Freddie Gray but I think these cops are going to unfortunately going to walk.

FREDDY GRAY DIED BECAUSE OF THE WAR ON DRUGS.

Freddy Gray was arrested for "appearing" to be selling unapproved plants or unapproved plant alkaloids which then put him in the position he ended up in.
Yes, Gray's rap sheet was long.... for practically all drug offenses. Literally no crime was committed in any of those situations where he was arrested. Not one crime, at all! No one was hurt, no one was harmed, no one was robbed, or tricked or shot or stabbed or killed....
I'd go so far as to guess that in those two instances involving robbery... that there's a higher chance that it was in the commission of getting more money to support a drug habit. Again, a direct consequence of the war on drugs.
His entire "criminal" career centered around the drug market. Not one mark of violence. He wasn't a violent person.

Freddie Gray needed help, man.... he didn't need to be put in a position to get fucking killed. That's bullshit and those cops had a responsibility for his safety and failed him miserably. They should feel like fucking shit if they had any guilt hand in his death... the smallest piece of guilt.

End. This. Shit, guys. Seriously. We need your help! We have a chance to make the next generation that much better and the generation after that a little bit better and then the next generation and the next. Get out there and tell everyone... tell your friends and your family. Tell you kids. Tell everyone. If we just get enough people to force the hands of those sociopaths in Lansing and Washington... wherever, fuck... END THIS IMMORAL DRUG WAR... it has done nothing but lead DIRECTLY to the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. It has helped NO ONE. No one wins this way.

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 3DKoOuO

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 3DKoOuO

by tTito 2015-05-03, 18:37

Such a waste.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 14:02

That's called a CLM (career limiting maneuver).

Wayne Co. asst. prosecutor resigns over Baltimore post

Teana Walsh wrote:Solution, Simple. Shoot em. Period. End of discussion. I don't care what causes the protesters to turn violent ... what the 'they did it because' reason is ... no way is this acceptable. Flipping disgusting.

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 B99266592Z.1_20150501185437_000_GTBGDPRK.1-0

by tTito 2015-05-04, 15:24

Baltimore Police just shot another one.

by **Tim Wakefield** 2015-05-04, 15:27

tTito wrote:Baltimore Police just shot another one.

God damnit. Enough

by **Tim Wakefield** 2015-05-04, 15:30

Police saying they do not have a shooting victim at this time. "Misperception in the community". Briefing coming.

Major backpedal mode on Fox News right now. Crazy.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 15:37

Tim Wakefield wrote:Police saying they do not have a shooting victim at this time. "Misperception in the community". Briefing coming.

Major backpedal mode on Fox News right now. Crazy.

That could be a tough switcheroo to pull off since a Fox News (I know) "reporter" claims to have actually witnessed the shooting.

by tTito 2015-05-04, 15:41

Heat Miser wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:Police saying they do not have a shooting victim at this time. "Misperception in the community". Briefing coming.

Major backpedal mode on Fox News right now. Crazy.

That could be a tough switcheroo to pull off since a Fox News (I know) "reporter" claims to have actually witnessed the shooting.

Yeah, there's a pic of a dude on a stretcher too.

by **Tim Wakefield** 2015-05-04, 15:43

Who will the left believe?

The evil/racist police or evil/racist Fox News?

Nothing on CNN, msnbc, or Fox right now. The girl that was interviewed was very shaken though. I'm siding with her and Fox News on this one, i believe there was a shooting.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 15:48

Here's the Fox video with the phone call from "reporter" Mike Tobin.

EDIT: and now it's gone. Guess it didn't actually happen.

by tTito 2015-05-04, 16:01

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist........ and just like that, he was gone.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 16:09

This seems like a step in the right direction, though probably a lot less fun for the cops:

Police Start to Reconsider Longstanding Rules on Using Force

Training for Recruits
A recent survey of 281 police agencies found that young officers spent far more time training on firearms and tactics than on responding to a crisis or defusing tense situations.

Median hours
spent training on . . .

Firearms - 58 hours
Defensive tactics - 49

De-escalation - 8
Crisis intervention - 8

Source: Police Executive Research Forum
THE NEW YORK TIMES

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-04, 16:14

Heat Miser wrote:Here's the Fox video with the phone call from "reporter" Mike Tobin.

EDIT: and now it's gone. Guess it didn't actually happen.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 16:17

xsanguine wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:Here's the Fox video with the phone call from "reporter" Mike Tobin.

EDIT: and now it's gone. Guess it didn't actually happen.

Baltimore police: No shots fired, no one wounded when man arrested on handgun charge

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-04, 16:20

Heat Miser wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Baltimore police: No shots fired, no one wounded when man arrested on handgun charge

Someone's a liar.

Who you got? Tobin or BPD?

by **The Pantry** 2015-05-04, 16:22

Maybe the "no one wounded" thing means the guy hasn't died...yet

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 16:28

xsanguine wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Baltimore police: No shots fired, no one wounded when man arrested on handgun charge

Someone's a liar.

Who you got? Tobin or BPD?

Really bizarre. Tobin clearly states he saw 1 shot & the perp was in pretty bad shape. I don't watch Fox News(I read all my news). Do they really just make shit up? OTOH, BPD has good reason to try & cover this up, but that would be impossible...right?

I'll have to go with Tobin seeing things since Fox is clearly trying to pretend like nothing happened.

Maybe BPD asked them to put a lid on it to avoid more riots? Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 983955289

Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 983955289

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-04, 16:36

Heat Miser wrote:
xsanguine wrote:

Someone's a liar.

Who you got? Tobin or BPD?

Really bizarre. Tobin clearly states he saw 1 shot & the perp was in pretty bad shape. I don't watch Fox News(I read all my news). Do they really just make shit up? OTOH, BPD has good reason to try & cover this up, but that would be impossible...right?

I'll have to go with Tobin seeing things since Fox is clearly trying to pretend like nothing happened.

Maybe BPD asked them to put a lid on it to avoid more riots?

It's hard to determine what is real and what is a complete fabrication in the news. And also what is somewhere in between. MSNBC, CNN, and FNC... they all do it.

We shouldn't take any of this stuff too seriously because none of us have even a sliver of accurate information until the incident ends up in court or a police report.

Or at least that's what history has taught us.

I'm gonna go with Tobin was being creative like he's probably done dozens of times before.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-04, 16:38

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Fox News' Shep Smith offers sincere apology for his network's error.

Jumping the Gun: Fox News falsely reports that Baltimore police shot protester in the back

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-04, 16:47

Heat Miser wrote: Fox News' Shep Smith offers sincere apology for his network's error.

Jumping the Gun: Fox News falsely reports that Baltimore police shot protester in the back

Hah!

That seems like a mistake MSNBC would make, not Fox.

Fox would claim that blacks are dragging white cops through the streets tied to the back of their Caddies.

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by **xsanguine** 2015-05-04, 22:10

Robert J Sakimano wrote:just as they attempted to blame Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, et al. for their own murders, I'm now looking forward to the series of remarks by right wing racists that charging the officers is politically motivated....

Both the Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin situations were extensively investigated (more than normal) and that investigation was not just done by police departments.

They were found to be responsible for their own deaths.

They were part of the group that commits 7 times more violent crimes than their white counterparts. They were guilty of being shitty people and unfortunately ran into someone they couldn't bully like they're used to doing in their own neighborhoods.

The most dangerous individuals to black people are other black people.

The facts are the facts, Bob.

You know I'm a huge fan of you, Bob. But I can't let anyone, not even posters I'm very fond of, get away with rewriting history to fit a false narrative.

I'm going to wait until the investigation has been completed regarding Freddie Gray, but from the information that we have at this point I am leaning towards him being a victim of police brutality. Unfortunately for the George Soros funded #blacklivesmatter crowd, the false #HandsUpDon'tShoot crowd and the racist Baltimore rioters... it appears he's a victim of black police brutality because the individual who is being charged with the worst of allegations is black.

Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin are not the poster boys for racist police brutality that they were attempted to be portrayed as and continued to be portrayed as on popular media networks like MSNBC and CNN.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-05-04, 23:51

But Xsan, aren't there societal or systematic changes that can help or even change the facts regarding these people that you are presenting?

I have a problem with just saying, well shit, that's how it is.

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-05, 00:37

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:But Xsan, aren't there societal or systematic changes that can help or even change the facts regarding these people that you are presenting?

I have a problem with just saying, well shit, that's how it is.

There certainly is.

We can stop raising the children in these communities to think that they are automatically victims and that the world owes them something by pitting them in a cycle of dependency from the get go.
I'm not sure how you can convince young women not to get pregnant at a young age or how you can convince the males to want to raise the children that they've sired.... but that would help.

Look at Hispanic families. They are just as poor and don't commit near the crimes that blacks commit.

The numbers speak for themselves. The police are not over-targeting these people. If your argument is that police are over-targeting black people then your argument must be that they are over-targeting everyone because the numbers indicate that they police the neighborhoods that receive the correlated 911 calls and the numbers indicate the victims are identifying the criminals at the same rate that are appearing in the crime stats. It's not like the cops are just creating crimes out of thin air to arrest these people for. They are arrested people for crimes reported by the victims, who are also black.
There is no conspiracy. You can do the research and you will come to the same conclusion based on the irrefutable data. There is not some nationwide conspiracy or nationwide agenda to deliberately target these individuals. It does not exist. There's no other way around it.
Black people commit a virtually identical amount of murders as white people. But black people make up not even 13% of the population and white people make up 70%. That is not some conspiracy. We're not hiding thousands of white bodies and hiding thousands of white missing persons reports to skew the numbers.

I'd like to hear your thoughts... what do you think needs to happen to change this? Everything I've seen on CNN and MSNBC says that cops just need to stop being racist. That's the answer... cops are just racist and need to stop being racist and all will be well. But the data, the statistics just don't support that narrative at all. At all.
Do they want the police to just stop arresting individuals for these crimes? That's the only thing I can think of that the police could do to affect the statistics. They simply refuse to accept responsibility for the data that they are responsible for. And to say any of this is not "racist". That has to be the most overused and incorrectly used word lately.
If anything is "racist" it's the numbers that indicate, without question, that there is a real issue with crime and violence in black neighborhoods... or excuse me for saying it, the black "community".

Keep in mind I am not giving an opinion. I am not giving my perspective. I am not giving you the way I see it... I am parroting the data. That is all that I am doing is reciting the numbers. This data, the statistics are always missing in these MSNBC/CNN discussions of the issue. The numbers are missing at the rallies with people standing at the podium looking for cheers from the crowd... because the last thing the crowd wants to hear is that they are responsible and it is their responsibility to change the trajectory. The police are simply responding to the calls that are made to them and are responding to the victim's witness. Unless you're asking them to start ignoring the 911 calls and start ignoring the victim's call for help against the crime being committed against them I'm not sure what you want them to do.

When you are responsible for that high a number of violent crimes... you're going to have an equal amount of violent confrontations with police. There are not any more violent confrontations as a ratio of the data than anyone else experiences. To suggest there is is to simply ignore the data. To ignore the REALITY of the situation.

If the people suggesting this is all a conspiracy are incapable of accepting the facts and just cannot discuss the issue without excluding the facts... they need to not be apart of the discussion because they have no basis with which to participate in the discourse.

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-05, 00:46

Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

by **Tim Wakefield** 2015-05-05, 01:19

xsanguine wrote:Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

So fucking true. Every political discussion I've had lately is just regurgitated bullshit. No one has their own thoughts anymore and it pisses me off.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-05-05, 02:06

xsanguine wrote:Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

Am I included in this, my bros, Wake, Xsan?

by **Tim Wakefield** 2015-05-05, 02:15

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

Am I included in this, my bros, Wake, Xsan?

Naw.

I'm not on a "side" in this whole "police vs. black America" thing. Sucks that people can't see it on a case-by-case basis IMO.

Michael brown was a thug who assaulted the cop. Fact. Didn't deserve to die but the cop had the legal right to defend himself.

Freddie Gray was mistreated by cops and they're getting charged for it. Also a fact.

Neither of these happened just because the victim was black and I get annoyed when people, including myself, get called racist. I'm not even close to racist!

by **xsanguine** 2015-05-05, 02:58

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

Am I included in this, my bros, Wake, Xsan?

I'd be mean to you if you were, OTPT. afro

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-05-05, 07:32

xsanguine wrote:
Robert J Sakimano wrote:just as they attempted to blame Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, et al. for their own murders, I'm now looking forward to the series of remarks by right wing racists that charging the officers is politically motivated....

Both the Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin situations were extensively investigated (more than normal) and that investigation was not just done by police departments.

They were found to be responsible for their own deaths.

They were part of the group that commits 7 times more violent crimes than their white counterparts. They were guilty of being shitty people and unfortunately ran into someone they couldn't bully like they're used to doing in their own neighborhoods.

The most dangerous individuals to black people are other black people.

The facts are the facts, Bob.

You know I'm a huge fan of you, Bob. But I can't let anyone, not even posters I'm very fond of, get away with rewriting history to fit a false narrative.

I'm going to wait until the investigation has been completed regarding Freddie Gray, but from the information that we have at this point I am leaning towards him being a victim of police brutality. Unfortunately for the George Soros funded #blacklivesmatter crowd, the false #HandsUpDon'tShoot crowd and the racist Baltimore rioters... it appears he's a victim of black police brutality because the individual who is being charged with the worst of allegations is black.

Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin are not the poster boys for racist police brutality that they were attempted to be portrayed as and continued to be portrayed as on popular media networks like MSNBC and CNN.

you're welcome to your opinion, dude.

oh, and I like you too.. Baltimore citizens are frustrated - Page 10 3493939353

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-05-05, 08:12

I'm guessing that Fox News was too busy celebrating the shooting of a black guy to notice that it never happened....

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-05, 09:51

Tim Wakefield wrote:
xsanguine wrote:Ugh, I always do this.... I get myself involved in another controversial never-ending discussion that I'm going to end up getting bored with by the day after when everyone chimes in.

And watch... everyone that can't let go of the narrative that their political "team" has adopted, that can't look at it with a completely open mind is going to focus on trying to discredit me rather than the data/statistics.

Ahh well.

So fucking true. Every political discussion I've had lately is just regurgitated bullshit. No one has their own thoughts anymore and it pisses me off.

This discussion does not have to be political. Some people, however, just can't resist making it political, which of course ruins it, which is why places like tSwill Bin & Wells have to exist.

by **Other Teams Pursuing That** 2015-05-05, 09:55

Heat Miser wrote:
Tim Wakefield wrote:

So fucking true. Every political discussion I've had lately is just regurgitated bullshit. No one has their own thoughts anymore and it pisses me off.

This discussion does not have to be political. Some people, however, just can't resist making it political, which of course ruins it, which is why places like tSwill Bin & Wells have to exist.

Shit, I would argue it SHOULDN'T be political. Everything is just used as leverage by the scumbags in Washington now.

by tTito 2015-05-05, 10:11

Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:
Heat Miser wrote:

This discussion does not have to be political. Some people, however, just can't resist making it political, which of course ruins it, which is why places like tSwill Bin & Wells have to exist.

Shit, I would argue it SHOULDN'T be political. Everything is just used as leverage by the scumbags in Washington now.

....and the media.

by **Robert J Sakimano** 2015-05-05, 10:18

tTito wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Shit, I would argue it SHOULDN'T be political. Everything is just used as leverage by the scumbags in Washington now.

....and the media.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest problem in America is the 24 hour news cycle.. they have to have something to fill 24 hours with..

and since they don't have "news".. they create "news" - and then talking heads with an agenda, a book to sell, a movie to pimp or a TV show to promote - all for profit - get to come on to divide America into stratified groups.

by **Heat Miser** 2015-05-05, 10:54

Robert J Sakimano wrote:
tTito wrote:
Other Teams Pursuing That wrote:

Shit, I would argue it SHOULDN'T be political. Everything is just used as leverage by the scumbags in Washington now.

....and the media.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest problem in America is the 24 hour news cycle.. they have to have something to fill 24 hours with..

and since they don't have "news".. they create "news" - and then talking heads with an agenda, a book to sell, a movie to pimp or a TV show to promote - all for profit - get to come on to divide America into stratified groups.

I was referring specifically to this thread and this board.

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