Re: North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north?

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-08, 21:01

LooseGoose wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:If it is water under the bridge, why are you posting about it? If it is water under the bridge, why are you attributing NK nuclear ambitions under different leadership to this deal?

I'm posting about it because it's part of the history that got us here. Sorry if being informed offends you.

Yeah, I do not think you have much on me here....

by Guest 2017-08-08, 22:15

LOL @ Trump making it worse. this was a complete clusterfuck when he was elected.

Allahpundit‏ @allahpundit 13m13 minutes ago
I want to go to bed but I’m afraid then I’ll miss the nuclear exchange

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-08, 22:19

LooseGoose wrote:LOL @ Trump making it worse. this was a complete clusterfuck when he was elected.

Allahpundit‏ @allahpundit 13m13 minutes ago
I want to go to bed but I’m afraid then I’ll miss the nuclear exchange

Ok

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-08, 22:26

LooseGoose wrote:LOL @ Trump making it worse. this was a complete clusterfuck when he was elected.

Allahpundit‏ @allahpundit 13m13 minutes ago
I want to go to bed but I’m afraid then I’ll miss the nuclear exchange

He was going to get China to handle it. Remember?

How's that going? Has he improved relations with China? Or pissed them off?

I don't recall it being this bad before. Do you? 2 nitwits are threatening each other. You think this is better? Or even the same? That's laughable.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-08, 22:30

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump
Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III.
6:46 AM - 31 Aug 2013

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-08-08, 22:34

Turtleneck wrote:Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump
Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III.
6:46 AM - 31 Aug 2013

The Russian investigation must be gaining more momentum than we realized or he's an egotistical ass who thinks everything is a real estate deal where bombast is a desirable trait.

Maybe both.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-08, 22:52

LooseGoose wrote:LOL @ Trump making it worse. this was a complete clusterfuck when he was elected.

Allahpundit‏ @allahpundit 13m13 minutes ago
I want to go to bed but I’m afraid then I’ll miss the nuclear exchange

1) Was the situation perfectly stable before Trump? No. Has he escalated tensions? Yes.

2) You were right in a previous post to call Kim Jong-un less rational than his father and grandfather.

3) However, Kim not too distant from his father and grandfather. Less rational? Yes. Completely irrational? Probably not.

4) Do you believe Kim's goal is to see North Korea wiped off the map or the regime otherwise disposed of by the U.S.? I think it is safe to say he wants the regime to survive and stay in power. Besides, China would have something to say about that anyway.

5) North Korea has a history of using their nuclear program as both a bargaining chip and way to defy the West. Kim's father used the program to get goods - food, heating oil, medicine, etc. - that the regime could not provide to its people. He also used the program to legitimate his brutal regime to its domestic audience. Defiance via the nuclear program is not unrelated to propaganda campaigns in North Korea that paint the country as a victim of American imperialism. Defiance shows the people that the regime will stand up to American imperialists, and is therefore necessary (because who else will protect them and their national values?).

5) The program is also meant to be a deterrent, so it is not just about what it can do at home but also what it can do in respect to the balance of power in Asia.

6) Trump misreads the situation time-and-time again because he is ignorant of foreign affairs.

7) Trump's bluster only encourages more provocation from North Korea. Trump is escalating the crisis with his worlds. See point #5. When Trump ups the ante, Kim must do the same so his regime does not look weak at home. Given his regime's brutality, it must look like it is necessary to protect the North Korean people and their national values in the face of American imperialism.

8) Trump is not deescalating the situation, and is instead escalating the situation, which therefore makes it worse.

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-08-08, 22:57

A lot of bravado from war wimps who could care less if 100,000+ South Korea lose their lives because of the diplomatic illiteracy we saw today.

by Guest 2017-08-08, 23:00

Yeah decades of appeasing those assholes and it's all on Trump.

Laughable partisanship.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-08, 23:04

LooseGoose wrote:Yeah decades of appeasing those assholes and it's all on Trump.

Laughable partisanship.

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:LOL @ Trump making it worse. this was a complete clusterfuck when he was elected.

Allahpundit‏ @allahpundit 13m13 minutes ago
I want to go to bed but I’m afraid then I’ll miss the nuclear exchange

1) Was the situation perfectly stable before Trump? No. Has he escalated tensions? Yes.

2) You were right in a previous post to call Kim Jong-un less rational than his father and grandfather.

3) However, Kim not too distant from his father and grandfather. Less rational? Yes. Completely irrational? Probably not.

4) Do you believe Kim's goal is to see North Korea wiped off the map or the regime otherwise disposed of by the U.S.? I think it is safe to say he wants the regime to survive and stay in power. Besides, China would have something to say about that anyway.

5) North Korea has a history of using their nuclear program as both a bargaining chip and way to defy the West. Kim's father used the program to get goods - food, heating oil, medicine, etc. - that the regime could not provide to its people. He also used the program to legitimate his brutal regime to its domestic audience. Defiance via the nuclear program is not unrelated to propaganda campaigns in North Korea that paint the country as a victim of American imperialism. Defiance shows the people that the regime will stand up to American imperialists, and is therefore necessary (because who else will protect them and their national values?).

5) The program is also meant to be a deterrent, so it is not just about what it can do at home but also what it can do in respect to the balance of power in Asia.

6) Trump misreads the situation time-and-time again because he is ignorant of foreign affairs.

7) Trump's bluster only encourages more provocation from North Korea. Trump is escalating the crisis with his worlds. See point #5. When Trump ups the ante, Kim must do the same so his regime does not look weak at home. Given his regime's brutality, it must look like it is necessary to protect the North Korean people and their national values in the face of American imperialism.

8) Trump is not deescalating the situation, and is instead escalating the situation, which therefore makes it worse.

I will anxiously await your informed, point-by-point response.

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-08-08, 23:12

LooseGoose wrote:Yeah decades of appeasing those assholes and it's all on Trump.

Laughable partisanship.

Only thing that's laughable is the head in the sand approach the golfing dunce uses as he shoots off his mouth.

No other US President has said things as patently stupid as Trump said today. Maybe behind closed doors and everyone knew it was frustration and it stopped there.

This guy thinks everything is a real estate deal.

Maybe the prevelant view for Trump supprters is its good to threaten a leader who kills people with impunity including family members.

Trump got a major UN resolution passed when Russia and China made the UN sanctions a unanimous vote and less than a week later he spouts off looking tone deaf and doesn't mind cutting the legs out from under his UN appointee and other cabinent members.

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-08, 23:22

LooseGoose wrote:Yeah decades of appeasing those assholes and it's all on Trump.

Laughable partisanship.

Has he made it better or worse?

Or will your laughable partisanship prevent you from honestly answering that question?

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 08:00

Trump’s Harsh Language on North Korea Has Little Precedent, Experts Say

It’s hard to think of a president using more extreme language during crisis like this before,” said Michael Beschloss, a presidential historian. “Presidents usually try to use language that is even more moderate than what they may be feeling in private, because they’ve always been worried that their language might escalate a crisis.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/us/politics/trumps-harsh-language-on-north-korea-has-little-precedent-experts-say.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Campaign&utm_term=%2ASituation%20Report&referer=

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-09, 08:43

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Yeah decades of appeasing those assholes and it's all on Trump.

Laughable partisanship.

Turtleneck wrote:

1) Was the situation perfectly stable before Trump? No. Has he escalated tensions? Yes.

2) You were right in a previous post to call Kim Jong-un less rational than his father and grandfather.

3) However, Kim not too distant from his father and grandfather. Less rational? Yes. Completely irrational? Probably not.

4) Do you believe Kim's goal is to see North Korea wiped off the map or the regime otherwise disposed of by the U.S.? I think it is safe to say he wants the regime to survive and stay in power. Besides, China would have something to say about that anyway.

5) North Korea has a history of using their nuclear program as both a bargaining chip and way to defy the West. Kim's father used the program to get goods - food, heating oil, medicine, etc. - that the regime could not provide to its people. He also used the program to legitimate his brutal regime to its domestic audience. Defiance via the nuclear program is not unrelated to propaganda campaigns in North Korea that paint the country as a victim of American imperialism. Defiance shows the people that the regime will stand up to American imperialists, and is therefore necessary (because who else will protect them and their national values?).

5) The program is also meant to be a deterrent, so it is not just about what it can do at home but also what it can do in respect to the balance of power in Asia.

6) Trump misreads the situation time-and-time again because he is ignorant of foreign affairs.

7) Trump's bluster only encourages more provocation from North Korea. Trump is escalating the crisis with his worlds. See point #5. When Trump ups the ante, Kim must do the same so his regime does not look weak at home. Given his regime's brutality, it must look like it is necessary to protect the North Korean people and their national values in the face of American imperialism.

8) Trump is not deescalating the situation, and is instead escalating the situation, which therefore makes it worse.

I will anxiously await your informed, point-by-point response.

Your post will be met with fire and fury.

Eventually.

Maybe.

by **Floyd Robertson** 2017-08-09, 09:03

I hope Dennis Rodman can help navigate us through this madness.

by **InTenSity** 2017-08-09, 09:06

Should we come up with a meeting point after the nuclear war?

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 09:49

NigelUno wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

I will anxiously await your informed, point-by-point response.

Your post will be met with fire and fury.

Eventually.

Maybe.

The best reply is that the president is talking to China; that his bluster will force China's hand. While that might be true, it does not change the fact that North Korea will respond to his words accordingly.

by **Cameron** 2017-08-09, 11:01

InTenSity wrote:Should we come up with a meeting point after the nuclear war?

Bob's house.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 11:12

Cameron wrote:
InTenSity wrote:Should we come up with a meeting point after the nuclear war?

Bob's house.

Unfortunately his fallout shelter is filled with old guitars and bike parts. Nigel has a nice bunker under the granola aisle at Publix.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 13:05

While General McMaster and others consider North Korea a pre-eminent threat that requires a tough response, Mr. Bannon and others in the nationalist wing argue that it is really just a subset of the administration’s conflict with China and that Mr. Trump should not give more prominence to an unstable rogue operator like Kim Jong-un, North Korea’s leader.

Mr. Bannon’s allies in the alt-right media and activist groups have been waging a ferocious public attack against General McMaster, characterizing him as soft on issues like Iran, Israel and terrorism and promoting a hashtag #FireMcMaster. They are angry that General McMaster has pushed out several hard-liners associated with Mr. Bannon from the National Security Council staff. Mr. Trump came to General McMaster’s defense last week with a statement expressing confidence in him.

But in the North Korea debate, like a similar one over Afghanistan, Mr. Bannon has been arguing against what his side considers the excessively militant approach of the “war party” of General McMaster. While Mr. Bannon has his own channel to the president, he has been shut out of most formal discussions of North Korea by the national security team.

Neither camp advocated language like “fire and fury,” according to the people involved. Among those taken by surprise, they said, was John F. Kelly, the retired four-star Marine general who has just taken over as White House chief of staff and has been with the president at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J., for his working vacation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/09/us/politics/trump-north-korea.html

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 13:07

Now we get to hear from his legal team on the NK issue.

Jay Sekulow‏Verified account
@JaySekulow
The "strategic patience" of the #Obama Administration has given #NorthKorea the time it needed to build up its nuclear arsenal.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 13:10

Mattis releases statement that reflects wisdom and professionalism that our president does not actually possess.

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DGzVAyZXsAAqADw

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DGzVAyZXsAAqADw

by **GRR Spartan** 2017-08-09, 13:14

resolution

The same Sekulow who regularly lies on TV?

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-09, 13:15

GRR Spartan wrote:
resolution

The same Sekulow who regularly lies on TV?

Yes.

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-09, 13:17

Turtleneck wrote:Now we get to hear from his legal team on the NK issue.

Jay Sekulow‏Verified account
@JaySekulow
The "strategic patience" of the #Obama Administration has given #NorthKorea the time it needed to build up its nuclear arsenal.

OBAMA!!!

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-09, 20:01

LooseGoose wrote:The US had a clear shot at killing Kim Jong Un on July 4 — here's why it didn't strike

Video appears to show Kim Jong Un casually smoking next to an untested liquid-fueled missile

So, Trump let them test an ICBM (their first ICBM test ever) with this response:

Trump's reaction to the launch was scathing. "North Korea has just launched another missile. Does this guy have anything better to do with his life?" Trump asked on Twitter, referring to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.

"Hard to believe that South Korea and Japan will put up with this much longer. Perhaps China will put a heavy move on North Korea and end this nonsense once and for all!"

And since then they've tested another ICBM.

So, how is Trump making this better?

by Guest 2017-08-10, 09:10

Interesting information on the great artillery barrage........

At Least Eight Reasons Why The Talk Of North Korea Leveling Seoul Is Simply Wrong

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-10, 11:24

LooseGoose wrote:Interesting information on the great artillery barrage........

At Least Eight Reasons Why The Talk Of North Korea Leveling Seoul Is Simply Wrong

Why is it interesting? Some of it is accurate, others parts of the article are very flexible with expert analysis of North Korean capabilities.

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-10, 12:26

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Interesting information on the great artillery barrage........

At Least Eight Reasons Why The Talk Of North Korea Leveling Seoul Is Simply Wrong

Why is it interesting? Some of it is accurate, others parts of the article are very flexible with expert analysis of North Korean capabilities.

Maybe it's interesting because it starts with this...

I’ll use as my point of departure a Washington Post story from today titled Twenty-five million reasons the U.S. hasn’t struck North Korea. It discusses the idea that if war breaks out between North Korea and the United States and South Korea that Seoul, South Korea’s capital will be obliterated.

...and works off the premise that Seoul will be "obliterated".

Except the Washington Post story never says that.

by Guest 2017-08-10, 13:11

Turtleneck wrote:
LooseGoose wrote:Interesting information on the great artillery barrage........

At Least Eight Reasons Why The Talk Of North Korea Leveling Seoul Is Simply Wrong

Why is it interesting? Some of it is accurate, others parts of the article are very flexible with expert analysis of North Korean capabilities.

I found it informative regarding the reality on the ground. I'm sorry if you didn't.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-10, 13:19

Is that the reality on the ground?

NigelUno wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Why is it interesting? Some of it is accurate, others parts of the article are very flexible with expert analysis of North Korean capabilities.

Maybe it's interesting because it starts with this...

I’ll use as my point of departure a Washington Post story from today titled Twenty-five million reasons the U.S. hasn’t struck North Korea. It discusses the idea that if war breaks out between North Korea and the United States and South Korea that Seoul, South Korea’s capital will be obliterated.

...and works off the premise that Seoul will be "obliterated".

Except the Washington Post story never says that.

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 502811600

by Guest 2017-08-10, 14:02

Nah, it just says 4,000 rounds of artillery per hour - just collateral damage for a tough guy like numbbrain.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-10, 14:07

LooseGoose wrote:Nah, it just says 4,000 rounds of artillery per hour - just collateral damage for a tough guy like numbbrain.

https://spartanswill.forumotion.com/t14610-the-death-of-expertise#389406

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-10, 15:54

LooseGoose wrote:
Turtleneck wrote:

Why is it interesting? Some of it is accurate, others parts of the article are very flexible with expert analysis of North Korean capabilities.

I found it informative regarding the reality on the ground. I'm sorry if you didn't.

So, in effect the author was arguing Seoul would not be "obliterated"...even though the Post story never said that Seoul would be "obliterated".

So, what is the "reality"? The whole premise of the article was based on something that wasn't said in the Post. You get that, right?

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-10, 15:57

LooseGoose wrote:Nah, it just says 4,000 rounds of artillery per hour - just collateral damage for a tough guy like numbbrain.

Ummm Goose?

Isn't the author of your link arguing just that? That there would only be collateral damage? And that Seoul wouldn't be "obliterated"?

If you're going to deflect and chuckle your way through the buffoonery of Trump, you need to work on your game a bit. Honestly, you've been slipping lately...a lot.

by **Turtleneck** 2017-08-10, 22:27

A difference of about 72hrs.

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DG5BBGUUQAApmp7

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DG5BBupV0AAYUZE

by **Floyd Robertson** 2017-08-11, 06:51

Sandra McNeill‏ @SandMcNeill 2m2 minutes ago
As N Korea crisis ramps up, Joe's Army Navy seeing boom in sales of potassium iodide pills to fight radiation.
North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DG8W2pgXcAIhsaM

North Korea: Preventative attack or learn to live with a nuclear north? - Page 2 DG8W2pgXcAIhsaM

by **NigelUno** 2017-08-11, 07:04

Floyd Robertson wrote: Sandra McNeill‏ @SandMcNeill 2m2 minutes ago
As N Korea crisis ramps up, Joe's Army Navy seeing boom in sales of potassium iodide pills to fight radiation.

Trump IS good for the economy!

by **Floyd Robertson** 2017-08-11, 07:17

NigelUno wrote:
Floyd Robertson wrote: Sandra McNeill‏ @SandMcNeill 2m2 minutes ago
As N Korea crisis ramps up, Joe's Army Navy seeing boom in sales of potassium iodide pills to fight radiation.

Trump IS good for the economy!

Every nuclear cloud has a silver lining.

by **tGreenWay** 2017-08-11, 07:50

Floyd Robertson wrote: Sandra McNeill‏ @SandMcNeill 2m2 minutes ago
As N Korea crisis ramps up, Joe's Army Navy seeing boom in sales of potassium iodide pills to fight radiation.

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