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Post by kingstonlake on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:07 pm

Cameron wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:

Why did I visit statues, memorials, or monuments in the south? To honor them? Why did I visit battle fields? To honor the confederacy?The answer is no. It’s obvious why statues were built in the 1800’s. But it’s 2020.

I have no idea why you do the things you do. I don't know why you think Cake by the Ocean is the best song.

The battlefields, memorials, that stuff is mostly fine. Statues of traitorous cocksuckers like Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis should never have been built, and should have been demolished the second they were installed on public property. I don't know what you think society stands to gain by leaving them alone, but I'm quite sure you're wrong to think it.

Of course you think that. Because you think everyone should think the way you do. Seems kinda intolerant. I told you I didn’t visit those things to “honor” anything. But I guess you’re gonna think what you want. Fuck it- statues - Page 7 2599972566 There’s a simple solution. If you don’t want to visit anything like that, then don’t. I’m not saying we need to have dance party’s every year to honor these people at the sites. But allow people to view history if they want. On their terms, not yours.
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Post by Cameron on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:15 pm

kingstonlake wrote:
Cameron wrote:

I have no idea why you do the things you do. I don't know why you think Cake by the Ocean is the best song.

The battlefields, memorials, that stuff is mostly fine. Statues of traitorous cocksuckers like Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis should never have been built, and should have been demolished the second they were installed on public property. I don't know what you think society stands to gain by leaving them alone, but I'm quite sure you're wrong to think it.

Of course you think that. Because you think everyone should think the way you do. Seems kinda intolerant. I told you I didn’t visit those things to “honor” anything. But I guess you’re gonna think what you want. Fuck it- statues - Page 7 2599972566 There’s a simple solution. If you don’t want to visit anything like that, then don’t. I’m not saying we need to have dance party’s every year to honor these people at the sites. But allow people to view history if they want. On their terms, not yours.

So the benefit we get is "viewing history?" And that's worth maintaining statues built to honor traitors who tried to overthrow our nation on public lands at taxpayer expense, when many of those taxpayers feel oppressed by the very existence of those statues? But you think the statues are fine, and you think those people should just suck it up or feel like you do. Seems kinda intolerant.

If someone wants to commission a statue of Hitler fucking baby Jesus in the ear and house that statue on private property, fucking go nuts. These statues have no place on public land.
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Post by kingstonlake on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:27 pm

Cameron wrote:
kingstonlake wrote:

Of course you think that. Because you think everyone should think the way you do. Seems kinda intolerant. I told you I didn’t visit those things to “honor” anything. But I guess you’re gonna think what you want. Fuck it- statues - Page 7 2599972566 There’s a simple solution. If you don’t want to visit anything like that, then don’t. I’m not saying we need to have dance party’s every year to honor these people at the sites. But allow people to view history if they want. On their terms, not yours.

So the benefit we get is "viewing history?" And that's worth maintaining statues built to honor traitors who tried to overthrow our nation on public lands at taxpayer expense, when many of those taxpayers feel oppressed by the very existence of those statues? But you think the statues are fine, and you think those people should just suck it up or feel like you do. Seems kinda intolerant.

If someone wants to commission a statue of Hitler fucking baby Jesus in the ear and house that statue on private property, fucking go nuts. These statues have no place on public land.

I didn’t say anyone has to feel like I do. I said if they don’t like the statues or monuments they don’t have to visit them. Let each person make up their own mind. It doesn’t get more tolerable then that. There’s a TON of public funding for stuff I don’t like. I’m not losing my mind over it or demanding it stop.
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Post by Rocinante on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:41 pm

I am of two minds on the statue thing. On one hand, honoring traitors with statues built during Jim Crow to intimidate black people into not voting or trying to exercise their civil rights is disgusting. On the other hand, ignoring the context of their installation as part of the ongoing story of America could be dangerous. If we simply remove them, we remove evidence of the insidious nature of black oppression in our country and we forget that it isn’t just cops with billy clubs, it’s “historical societies” and the romanticizing of the “lost cause”. I used to say fuck these statues, but I’ve kind of come around to an idea I heard somewhere about pairing them with monuments to black folks and interpretive signage to explain what these statues are and what they aren’t. They aren’t monuments to war heroes. They are (or were) instruments of oppression.

I don’t know. There’s a visceral satisfaction to tearing down things that hurt to look at and I get that. I guess I think we will forget, which will allow some future bullshit like it to happen.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:53 pm

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

We should take down names of people guilty of war crimes if we know they are guilty of war crimes.


You're going to remove names of people that were never tried/convicted of war crimes?

And who decides who is guilty of war crimes? And then where do you draw the line? People in the South will then say no statues of Sherman, Grant, and others because they consider them guilty of war crimes. And then some will say no statues of Truman. Probably better remove any statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, as well.

I'm not all that bothered either way. I see the argument with the Civil War figures, but people seem to be drawing lines at arbitrary places. If you want to say no statues for anyone who fought for the confederacy, then why not for anyone who owned slaves in the first place? Why not anyone who helped further/extend the existence of slavery?

It was a bit hyperbolic Miami but I think it’s fun that you wrote 400 words replying to it
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Post by tGreenWay on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm

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Post by tGreenWay on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:14 pm

I’ve always considered the statues of Confederates were meant as a tribute. Statues of those traitors belong in museums as lessons in American history, not scattered across the country in public spaces to be honored. As I mentioned the last time, imagine how statues of Lincoln would be greeted across the South, or a Sherman statue in downtown Atlanta.
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Post by Rocinante on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:20 pm

Slippery slope arguments are lazy and stupid. Just saying.

Argue the thing on its own merits, not on some future boogie man.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:03 am

Rocinante wrote:Slippery slope arguments are lazy and stupid. Just saying.

Argue the thing on its own merits, not on some future boogie man.


If you're referring to my post, I was talking about consistency in what our (collectively as a nation) parameters are for taking down statues. Otherwise, we're just being disingenuous in our outrage.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:10 am

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
MiamiSpartan wrote:


You're going to remove names of people that were never tried/convicted of war crimes?

And who decides who is guilty of war crimes? And then where do you draw the line? People in the South will then say no statues of Sherman, Grant, and others because they consider them guilty of war crimes. And then some will say no statues of Truman. Probably better remove any statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, as well.

I'm not all that bothered either way. I see the argument with the Civil War figures, but people seem to be drawing lines at arbitrary places. If you want to say no statues for anyone who fought for the confederacy, then why not for anyone who owned slaves in the first place? Why not anyone who helped further/extend the existence of slavery?

It was a bit hyperbolic Miami but I think it’s fun that you wrote 400 words replying to it


I'm wordy, I own that. But I only wrote about 15 words regarding your hyperbole. The rest was a separate overall point about consistency.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:46 am

I’m just teasing you. Really I just don’t feel like getting into the semantics of how we would determine which person was a war criminal because it’s not really going to happen so shrug.gif
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Post by Turtleneck on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:01 pm

[tw]1271534712423698434?s=21[/tw]
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Post by tGreenWay on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:40 pm

Turtleneck wrote:[tw]1271534712423698434?s=21[/tw]



This will only cement Bob’s love for Tay Tay.
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Post by NigelUno on Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:21 am

Turtleneck wrote:[tw]1271534712423698434?s=21[/tw]

Shake it off.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:18 am

I've genuinely never seen a statue that I really care to see again.

also, its funny how republicans are suddenly interested in humanities and history since they've spent a generation trying to defund them.

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Post by MiamiSpartan on Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:49 pm

It's somewhat reassuring to remember that the US doesn't have a monopoly on senseless, mind-boggling behavior.

While we have people painting the hammer & sickle while protesting police/government brutality, and people waving Nazi flags while protesting the "tyranny" of a lockdown, England has people giving the Nazi salute while marching to protect a Churchill statue.

Earth is a stupid planet.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:30 pm

MiamiSpartan wrote:It's somewhat reassuring to remember that the US doesn't have a monopoly on senseless, mind-boggling behavior.

While we have people painting the hammer & sickle while protesting police/government brutality, and people waving Nazi flags while protesting the "tyranny" of a lockdown, England has people giving the Nazi salute while marching to protect a Churchill statue.

Earth is a stupid planet.
hell hath no fury like a white person inconvenienced.
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Post by NigelUno on Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:46 pm

[tw]1273817220657938433[/tw]

Taking down Confederate monuments in Georgia. Not sure I ever thought that would happen.
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Post by Robert J Sakimano on Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:00 pm

NigelUno wrote:[tw]1273817220657938433[/tw]

Taking down Confederate monuments in Georgia. Not sure I ever thought that would happen.
pretty awesome.

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Post by NigelUno on Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:20 pm

Fuck it- statues - Page 7 DSC9576-640x394

This monument might be difficult to remove. Put a big blue tarp over it?

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Post by Cameron on Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 pm

If we fuck with Mt. Rushmore, it will create plotholes in Richie Rich. That is a high price to pay...
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Post by Watch Out Pylon! on Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:30 pm

NigelUno wrote:Fuck it- statues - Page 7 DSC9576-640x394

This monument might be difficult to remove. Put a big blue tarp over it?


Fuck it- statues - Page 7 Giphy
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Post by StylesGShmooth on Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:52 pm

My only regret about those statues is that I didn't get to help tear one down. Racist, insurrectionist losers are not to be celebrated.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:43 am

Taking down confederate ones is fine. But Grant? Did someone see that he was Civil War general and just got the side wrong?
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Post by steveschneider on Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:45 pm

Taking down Teddy Roosevelt? Seriously? There needs to be guidelines and some discussion about this statue thing.
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:30 pm

steveschneider wrote:Taking down Teddy Roosevelt? Seriously? There needs to be guidelines and some discussion about this statue thing.

The statue is bad and his family wants it taken down. Google it, it will make more sense when you see it.
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Post by DWags on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:34 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Taking down Teddy Roosevelt? Seriously? There needs to be guidelines and some discussion about this statue thing.

The statue is bad and his family wants it taken down. Google it, it will make more sense when you see it.

Maybe in this time of statue removal we can take the Morgan Freeman statue down and replace it with Ervin Johnson or some famous MSU basketball player.
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Post by NigelUno on Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:39 pm

DWags wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

The statue is bad and his family wants it taken down. Google it, it will make more sense when you see it.

Maybe in this time of statue removal we can take the Morgan Freeman statue down and replace it with Ervin Johnson or some famous MSU basketball player.

I'd go with a hologram. Easier to replace.
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Post by MiamiSpartan on Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:11 pm

DWags wrote:
Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

The statue is bad and his family wants it taken down. Google it, it will make more sense when you see it.

Maybe in this time of statue removal we can take the Morgan Freeman statue down and replace it with Ervin Johnson or some famous MSU basketball player.


While I like the reference/joke (Spartans have always been offended by the poor likeness), just in case you or others haven't seen the TR statue, it isn't bad because it doesn't look like TR, it is bad because there is an African and Native American standing on the ground next to TR, who is on a horse (so they're in a lesser, subjugated manner).
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Post by Travis of the Cosmos on Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:21 pm

Here-

Fuck it- statues - Page 7 9k=

It’s not good you guys.
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Post by kingstonlake on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:01 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:Here-

Fuck it- statues - Page 7 9k=

It’s not good you guys.

He’s not carrying a big stick.
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Post by steveschneider on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:40 pm

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:
steveschneider wrote:Taking down Teddy Roosevelt? Seriously? There needs to be guidelines and some discussion about this statue thing.

The statue is bad and his family wants it taken down. Google it, it will make more sense when you see it.

Yep, you are correct. I support this removal but people need to note that it is the statues composition not Roosevelt that they are removing.
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Post by NigelUno on Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:13 am

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Post by Dendrobates on Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:44 am

tGreenWay wrote:I’ve always considered the statues of Confederates were meant as a tribute. Statues of those traitors belong in museums as lessons in American history, not scattered across the country in public spaces to be honored. As I mentioned the last time, imagine how statues of Lincoln would be greeted across the South, or a Sherman statue in downtown Atlanta.

This was a thought of mine as well. Let's move them into a museum. Put them in an area about black oppression. It's not a perfect idea, and I understand the idea of getting rid of them as well. But in a way to possibly be educational while getting it out of public parks.

Idk...I could be way off too. I have realized I don't get it and I never will. I am trying to listen and hope to understand it as much as I can.
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Post by Frank Ricard on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:32 am

How ironic that the bigot in the Oval Office doesn't like to honor war heroes like McCain because they got captured, but he doesn't want any statues removed that honors the side that fucking lost.

I guess he only honors those who fought to suppress Black people.
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Post by kingstonlake on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:26 am

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Post by Turtleneck on Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:55 am

[tw]1275117352204537857?s=21[/tw]
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Post by steveschneider on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:02 pm

I think this statue thing has gotten completely out of hand. Enough with this mob rule going around and determining which statue stays and goes. I think there needs to be a discussion and a process around it.
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Post by Frank Ricard on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:26 pm

steveschneider wrote:I think this statue thing has gotten completely out of hand. Enough with this mob rule going around and determining which statue stays and goes. I think there needs to be a discussion and a process around it.

You mean we should put as much thinking as we did when these statues were put up? These were put up to intimidate Blacks. That's all the thought process that was put into it - so these people in the South could hang onto their racist past.

You think the Germans should have statues honoring Hitler and Himmler? You think there should be committees and focus groups to leave up our racist past? Maybe the South didn't have gas chambers, but it's a fact they didn't see their slaves as human beings and bought and sold them like commodities, often splitting up families. The Nazis didn't see Jewish people as humans either. And I don't see statues in Germany romanticizing their defeat in a war. You'd think we'd do better. Fuck statues.
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Post by steveschneider on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:18 pm

Frank Ricard wrote:
steveschneider wrote:I think this statue thing has gotten completely out of hand. Enough with this mob rule going around and determining which statue stays and goes. I think there needs to be a discussion and a process around it.

You mean we should put as much thinking as we did when these statues were put up?  These were put up to intimidate Blacks.  That's all the thought process that was put into it - so these people in the South could hang onto their racist past.

You think the Germans should have statues honoring Hitler and Himmler?  You think there should be committees and focus groups to leave up our racist past?  Maybe the South didn't have gas chambers, but it's a fact they didn't see their slaves as human beings and bought and sold them like commodities, often splitting up families.  The Nazis didn't see Jewish people as humans either.  And I don't see statues in Germany romanticizing their defeat in a war.  You'd think we'd do better.  Fuck statues.

I agree with just about all your points, however look at what went down in Madison, WI you have a mob taking down statues and punching a state senator.

"One of the statues toppled, decapitated and dragged into a lake about a half-mile away was of Civil War Col. Hans Christian Heg. He was an anti-slavery activist and leader of an anti-slave catcher militia in Wisconsin who fought for the Union and died from injuries suffered during the Battle of Chickamauga."

How is this doing any good?
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