Like many of you, I don’t have an answer for the roads either

Yeah, 45 cents a gallon won’t fly in this state. I don’t an answer. The roads need to be fixed, but how do we get there? Pennsylvania turn pine is actually going broke. Snyder already almost doubled our fees for registration and that’s not enough. We can say they’re mishandling the money, but now we’re just arguing again. Many of us have paid over 200 dollars a year in repairs for tires so we know it’s a desperate situation. Beyond that, we’ve lost lives. So I have no idea. Would be nice if they could lower our insurance 200-300 per year but I’d need someone from the insurance industry to tell me why that won’t fly. I’ve calculated it’s about 9 or ten bucks more per fill up. That’s about 20 to 30 bucks a mont or 200 -300 per year. If you’re a two or three car family, she just asked for 600-1000 dollars more from you. Would be nice if we could get it back through lower insurance but that won’t happen.

I don't have the answers either, but what other solution than taxing the shit out of those who use the roads makes sense? If you 100% guarantee me that every single penny collected goes toward fixing the roads then I'm all for it. We choose to live here, we choose to drive the roads, we're responsible for paying for them. I do somehow want better accountability for the standards that roads should be built to withstand the freeze/thaw heave cycle if at all possible (Dendro is going to have to remind me if that's even possible, I vaguely remember another convo on that).

There's another problem, though, which is the allocation of the money that goes to roads. That formula is from the 1950s and benefits outstate and rural counties based on the number of miles of roads rather than weighting the formula based on traffic.

Get some tolls going. The roads in Michigan are horrendous. You roll up through Toledo and the second you cross the border you feel like your alignment is going to get thrown out.

Or the other answer get a Prius or an electric car if they roll out the gas tax. On a 15 mile trip last Sunday I pulled off 65mpg in my Prius. Unreal.

steveschneider wrote:Get some tolls going. The roads in Michigan are horrendous. You roll up through Toledo and the second you cross the border you feel like your alignment is going to get thrown out.

Toll roads are problematic for a state that no on travels through, aren't they? The fees are largely going to be paid by the people who live here anyway. Toll roads in OH/PA make sense because people are driving through them to get out of them.

steveschneider wrote:Or the other answer get a Prius or an electric car if they roll out the gas tax. On a 15 mile trip last Sunday I pulled off 65mpg in my Prius. Unreal.

A use tax makes sense despite dwags’ dubious math (used an average of a 21 gallon tank wags? 14-15 would be more reasonable and still often on the high side. But no matter.)

But the problem is that it isn’t long term sustainable in my view. The 45 cent tax will be rolled out over years, by the end of which ideally we would all be using a lot less gas between electric cars and such like Steve mentions anyway.

As for alternative solutions, I’d rather we throw money into higher speed rail options between Detroit Lansing and Ann Arbor first, reducing the need for road money in those areas which can be used in places that don’t have rail. But that probably won’t happen either. Whitmer probably made a political mistake when she tied herself to an unreasonable campaign slogan (ftdr) for an election she was near certain to win, which will almost certainly be thrown back in her face in 3.5 years.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Get some tolls going. The roads in Michigan are horrendous. You roll up through Toledo and the second you cross the border you feel like your alignment is going to get thrown out.

Toll roads are problematic for a state that no on travels through, aren't they? The fees are largely going to be paid by the people who live here anyway. Toll roads in OH/PA make sense because people are driving through them to get out of them.

I don’t think Pennsylvania has tolls. I know for a fact they don’t charge on 80. There may be a few in the southern part of the state near Philly. There has to be a few major routes where people from Chicago are going up to the lake or Detroit.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Or the other answer get a Prius or an electric car if they roll out the gas tax. On a 15 mile trip last Sunday I pulled off 65mpg in my Prius. Unreal.

A use tax makes sense despite dwags’ dubious math (used an average of a 21 gallon tank wags? 14-15 would be more reasonable and still often on the high side. But no matter.)

But the problem is that it isn’t long term sustainable in my view. The 45 cent tax will be rolled out over years, by the end of which ideally we would all be using a lot less gas between electric cars and such like Steve mentions anyway.

As for alternative solutions, I’d rather we throw money into higher speed rail options between Detroit Lansing and Ann Arbor first, reducing the need for road money in those areas which can be used in places that don’t have rail. But that probably won’t happen either. Whitmer probably made a political mistake when she tied herself to an unreasonable campaign slogan (ftdr) for an election she was near certain to win, which will almost certainly be thrown back in her face in 3.5 years.

I agree that ftdr is going to be like an anchor tied to her feet, likely to drag her down. From what I remember, she had no intention of it being such a big plank in her platform. It came out off the cuff in one speech and got turned into a soundbite and she had to own it.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

steveschneider wrote:Or the other answer get a Prius or an electric car if they roll out the gas tax. On a 15 mile trip last Sunday I pulled off 65mpg in my Prius. Unreal.

A use tax makes sense despite dwags’ dubious math (used an average of a 21 gallon tank wags? 14-15 would be more reasonable and still often on the high side. But no matter.)

But the problem is that it isn’t long term sustainable in my view. The 45 cent tax will be rolled out over years, by the end of which ideally we would all be using a lot less gas between electric cars and such like Steve mentions anyway.

As for alternative solutions, I’d rather we throw money into higher speed rail options between Detroit Lansing and Ann Arbor first, reducing the need for road money in those areas which can be used in places that don’t have rail. But that probably won’t happen either. Whitmer probably made a political mistake when she tied herself to an unreasonable campaign slogan (ftdr) for an election she was near certain to win, which will almost certainly be thrown back in her face in 3.5 years.

The problem with rail is the cities are too sprawling. I guess with the increase of lyft, Uber and the soon to come automated self driving cars that may eliminate that problem.

Edit- I didn’t realize the “phased in” part of it was only over the course of one year. But that doesn’t change the fact that ideally in ten years we would need a lot less gas and still use roads just as much.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

A use tax makes sense despite dwags’ dubious math (used an average of a 21 gallon tank wags? 14-15 would be more reasonable and still often on the high side. But no matter.)

But the problem is that it isn’t long term sustainable in my view. The 45 cent tax will be rolled out over years, by the end of which ideally we would all be using a lot less gas between electric cars and such like Steve mentions anyway.

As for alternative solutions, I’d rather we throw money into higher speed rail options between Detroit Lansing and Ann Arbor first, reducing the need for road money in those areas which can be used in places that don’t have rail. But that probably won’t happen either. Whitmer probably made a political mistake when she tied herself to an unreasonable campaign slogan (ftdr) for an election she was near certain to win, which will almost certainly be thrown back in her face in 3.5 years.

I agree that ftdr is going to be like an anchor tied to her feet, likely to drag her down. From what I remember, she had no intention of it being such a big plank in her platform. It came out off the cuff in one speech and got turned into a soundbite and she had to own it.

Like “Mexico will pay for the wall” has hurt Trump?

DWags wrote:

Floyd Robertson wrote:

I agree that ftdr is going to be like an anchor tied to her feet, likely to drag her down. From what I remember, she had no intention of it being such a big plank in her platform. It came out off the cuff in one speech and got turned into a soundbite and she had to own it.

Like “Mexico will pay for the wall” has hurt Trump?

Trump has that cult of personality thing going for him though.

I'm with Floyd on it. No choice.

Isn't the whole MDOT/road construction infrastructure one big inefficient scam anyway? Blow that shit up and maybe we can really fix the damn roads. But yeah labor contracts and unions...she's not going anywhere near that.

I thought you guys were going to use devils grass tax $ for this? Or can you still not figure it out with $

How about a lottery specifically tied to road repair? Won't cover it but it's something. A side effect of the gas tax is people will probably start looking to live closer to work. Might help revitalize cities somewhat. We now live 5 minutes from work versus 40-50 minutes. I'm saving a minimum of $400 a month in gas.

kingstonlake wrote:How about a lottery specifically tied to road repair? Won't cover it but it's something. A side effect of the gas tax is people will probably start looking to live closer to work. Might help revitalize cities somewhat. We now live 5 minutes from work versus 40-50 minutes. I'm saving a minimum of $400 a month in gas.

About 50 years ago MI got into the lottery business. It was promoted saying all the revenue generated would be going to K-12 education.

What they (the MI state legislature) didn't talk about was how they would still have to ability to reduce funds that had historically gone to K-12 ed from the general fund to other programs (corrections, law enforcement etc)

MI already collects 6% sales tax on all retail fuel sold at the pump. The rub is the sales tax collected went into the general fund.

Unfortunately MI has been shirking on road funding for 50 years and its only gotten tougher since the Reagan revolution when St Ronnie began to vilify government and the MI GOP jumped on the anti-tax train with both feet.

AOC and the other commie socialists are going to use ground up baby parts to fill potholes in Michigan.

sincerely,

the GOP/mainstream media elite.

Seems like taxes and costs of gas are always cheaper in MI than mosts places on the coasts.

Last fall when I drove in through Port Huron the roads around Lapeer all the way to the bridge were a disgrace. When I came up through Toledo the 23 was a disgrace. It's crazy that UofM is a world class university and the roads circling that entire city are in horrendous condition and completely inadequate for the amount of traffic.

Stuff we need answers to that we never get, is where does our supposed road taxes go anyway? We all seem to have the impression funds are misused. That needs to be held accountable.

What I mentioned before was using different road materials that are used in Europe. It costs a lot more at once, but the materials last 20-30 years, which would save money in the long run. To my knowledge, no one does this in the US. Why is that? There are plenty of roads to keep everyone employed. Because this would need to be done everywhere.

I understand the need for a tax hike for the roads in general. But the public needs more answers to these questions.

Paczki tax.

Rocinante wrote:Paczki tax.

Makes sense.

Bad roads = obesity * population density

Dendrobates wrote:Stuff we need answers to that we never get, is where does our supposed road taxes go anyway? We all seem to have the impression funds are misused. That needs to be held accountable.

What I mentioned before was using different road materials that are used in Europe. It costs a lot more at once, but the materials last 20-30 years, which would save money in the long run. To my knowledge, no one does this in the US. Why is that? There are plenty of roads to keep everyone employed. Because this would need to be done everywhere.

I understand the need for a tax hike for the roads in general. But the public needs more answers to these questions.

“Misused” and “held accountable” suggest that someone is using them for nefarious purposes. What they’re often used for is schools. So unless we want to divert money away from schools and put it into roads we’ll have to find some other way to pay for it.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Dendrobates wrote:Stuff we need answers to that we never get, is where does our supposed road taxes go anyway? We all seem to have the impression funds are misused. That needs to be held accountable.

What I mentioned before was using different road materials that are used in Europe. It costs a lot more at once, but the materials last 20-30 years, which would save money in the long run. To my knowledge, no one does this in the US. Why is that? There are plenty of roads to keep everyone employed. Because this would need to be done everywhere.

I understand the need for a tax hike for the roads in general. But the public needs more answers to these questions.

“Misused” and “held accountable” suggest that someone is using them for nefarious purposes. What they’re often used for is schools. So unless we want to divert money away from schools and put it into roads we’ll have to find some other way to pay for it.

Oh I completely agree.
What I meant is clear transparency of where the funds go. They say it goes to roads or to schools. But getting that documentation is not always clear or easy. Clear access to that documentation is necessary, and that’s not always the case in politics.

Have to raise taxes. Sorry. Infrastructure which allows rich people to get richer needs upkeep.

Dendrobates wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

“Misused” and “held accountable” suggest that someone is using them for nefarious purposes. What they’re often used for is schools. So unless we want to divert money away from schools and put it into roads we’ll have to find some other way to pay for it.

Oh I completely agree.
What I meant is clear transparency of where the funds go. They say it goes to roads or to schools. But getting that documentation is not always clear or easy. Clear access to that documentation is necessary, and that’s not always the case in politics.

Especially since Michigan ranks dead last in transparency in government.

Rocinante wrote:Have to raise taxes. Sorry. Infrastructure which allows rich people to get richer needs upkeep.

What rich people and republican toadies don't fully grasp... GM, Ford, DOW, Meijer, Amazon, Walmart... etc etc etc... utilize and put SHITTON more strain on a highway then I ever will, wouldn't you think they should pay appropriately?

If we are going per gallon, diesel should be twice as much....

Whatever happened to raising the weight tax levies to the amount adjoining states are charging? Isn't Mi like a small percentage of what Indiana and Ohio charge?

steveschneider wrote:

Floyd Robertson wrote:

Toll roads are problematic for a state that no on travels through, aren't they? The fees are largely going to be paid by the people who live here anyway. Toll roads in OH/PA make sense because people are driving through them to get out of them.

I don’t think Pennsylvania has tolls. I know for a fact they don’t charge on 80. There may be a few in the southern part of the state near Philly. There has to be a few major routes where people from Chicago are going up to the lake or Detroit.

Do they not have the Turnpike there any longer? Growing up, we'd take the turnpike all the way across the state to go to Philly.

Does Michigan have any tolls around Detroit? It's been forever since I've actually driven in/around Detroit other than from the airport to 94/275/96. Florida, especially South Florida, has gone heavy with toll roads over the last couple of decades, and in more recent years has started adding tolled express lanes on what are otherwise "free" highways. Express lane rates vary depending on traffic, and get up over $10 to go about 10-15 miles during rush hour to go to/from downtown Miami. And a shit load of cars take it to the point that even those express lanes have significant slowdowns. They must be raking in the dollars on those. Now they're even going to add express lanes to the turnpike and possibly other highways that are already fully toll roads to give you the option of paying even more to drive those.

No toll roads in the State that I am aware of.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I don’t think Pennsylvania has tolls. I know for a fact they don’t charge on 80. There may be a few in the southern part of the state near Philly. There has to be a few major routes where people from Chicago are going up to the lake or Detroit.

Do they not have the Turnpike there any longer? Growing up, we'd take the turnpike all the way across the state to go to Philly.

Does Michigan have any tolls around Detroit? It's been forever since I've actually driven in/around Detroit other than from the airport to 94/275/96. Florida, especially South Florida, has gone heavy with toll roads over the last couple of decades, and in more recent years has started adding tolled express lanes on what are otherwise "free" highways. Express lane rates vary depending on traffic, and get up over $10 to go about 10-15 miles during rush hour to go to/from downtown Miami. And a shit load of cars take it to the point that even those express lanes have significant slowdowns. They must be raking in the dollars on those. Now they're even going to add express lanes to the turnpike and possibly other highways that are already fully toll roads to give you the option of paying even more to drive those.

None on 80W or 80E in Penn. I drive by Scranton some times and none up there either. New Jersey now that's a different story. To steal an old George Carlin joke, you can't back out of your driveway without paying a toll.

steveschneider wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Do they not have the Turnpike there any longer?  Growing up, we'd take the turnpike all the way across the state to go to Philly.

Does Michigan have any tolls around Detroit?  It's been forever since I've actually driven in/around Detroit other than from the airport to 94/275/96.  Florida, especially South Florida, has gone heavy with toll roads over the last couple of decades, and in more recent years has started adding tolled express lanes on what are otherwise "free" highways.  Express lane rates vary depending on traffic, and get up over $10 to go about 10-15 miles during rush hour to go to/from downtown Miami.  And a shit load of cars take it to the point that even those express lanes have significant slowdowns.  They must be raking in the dollars on those.  Now they're even going to add express lanes to the turnpike and possibly other highways that are already fully toll roads to give you the option of paying even more to drive those.  

None on 80W or 80E in Penn. I drive by Scranton some times and none up there either. New Jersey now that's a different story. To steal an old George Carlin joke, you can't back out of your driveway without paying a toll.

I'm confused, the PA Turnpike goes from Philly to Ohio, where it turns into the OH Turnpike?

PA Turnpike Current Road Conditions

The problem with toll roads around here especially is that they weren’t built with that in mind. There are too many exits and entrances, plus the exits and entrances often have short ramps and, at least near the city, making an existing highway a toll road would involve knocking down businesses and homes near the exit entrance to be able to build the booths. The cost of taking one of the current highways and making it a toll road would be prohibitively expensive to the point that it would take years to recoup the costs alone.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:The problem with toll roads around here especially is that they weren’t built with that in mind. There are too many exits and entrances, plus the exits and entrances often have short ramps and, at least near the city, making an existing highway a toll road would involve knocking down businesses and homes near the exit entrance to be able to build the booths. The cost of taking one of the current highways and making it a toll road would be prohibitively expensive to the point that it would take years to recoup the costs alone.

It's so electronic now. You just drive through and they mail you a bill or you have an EZ pass. In Massachusetts you just exit the highway, turn on to a road and they have scanners that get your plate so they can mail you a bill.

Floyd Robertson wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

None on 80W or 80E in Penn. I drive by Scranton some times and none up there either. New Jersey now that's a different story. To steal an old George Carlin joke, you can't back out of your driveway without paying a toll.

I'm confused, the PA Turnpike goes from Philly to Ohio, where it turns into the OH Turnpike?

PA Turnpike Current Road Conditions

Gotta be honest I've never driven on the PA turnkpike about to look at a map. I do take 80 West/East all the way to NYC some times and that part is definitely free.


Going off the Wikipedia page for I-80 looks like the toll is from near Chicago to Ohio.

"From near Chicago east to near Youngstown, Ohio, I-80 is a toll road, containing the majority of both the Indiana Toll Road and the Ohio Turnpike."

steveschneider wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:The problem with toll roads around here especially is that they weren’t built with that in mind. There are too many exits and entrances, plus the exits and entrances often have short ramps and, at least near the city, making an existing highway a toll road would involve knocking down businesses and homes near the exit entrance to be able to build the booths. The cost of taking one of the current highways and making it a toll road would be prohibitively expensive to the point that it would take years to recoup the costs alone.

It's so electronic now. You just drive through and they mail you a bill or you have an EZ pass. In Massachusetts you just exit the highway, turn on to a road and they have scanners that get your plate so they can mail you a bill.

Yeah but they still need a place for those things. At all entrances and exits (which again, there are too many to make it financially feasible).

At the end of the day, you need xxx dollars to fix roads. You can a) make the people who use the roads pay it by having a higher gas tax and get xxx dollars from that or b) make the people who use the roads pay it by having toll roads, but toll roads are going to cost yyy dollars up front thereby delaying the amount of time it takes to get xxx dollars by yyy.

I just wanted to make you have to do algebra.

Every gallon of water taken from the state via Nestle or the great lakes for other states use gets a .05¢ tax.

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

It's so electronic now. You just drive through and they mail you a bill or you have an EZ pass. In Massachusetts you just exit the highway, turn on to a road and they have scanners that get your plate so they can mail you a bill.

Yeah but they still need a place for those things. At all entrances and exits (which again, there are too many to make it financially feasible).

At the end of the day, you need xxx dollars to fix roads. You can a) make the people who use the roads pay it by having a higher gas tax and get xxx dollars from that or b) make the people who use the roads pay it by having toll roads, but toll roads are going to cost yyy dollars up front thereby delaying the amount of time it takes to get xxx dollars by yyy.

I just wanted to make you have to do algebra.

I got a bill in the mail from a highway I used in Indiana on the way home from Florida. Didn't even know it was a toll. Last time I checked there were plenty of exits in Indianapolis.

MiamiSpartan wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Floyd Robertson wrote:

Toll roads are problematic for a state that no on travels through, aren't they? The fees are largely going to be paid by the people who live here anyway. Toll roads in OH/PA make sense because people are driving through them to get out of them.

I don’t think Pennsylvania has tolls. I know for a fact they don’t charge on 80. There may be a few in the southern part of the state near Philly. There has to be a few major routes where people from Chicago are going up to the lake or Detroit.

Do they not have the Turnpike there any longer? Growing up, we'd take the turnpike all the way across the state to go to Philly.

Does Michigan have any tolls around Detroit? It's been forever since I've actually driven in/around Detroit other than from the airport to 94/275/96. Florida, especially South Florida, has gone heavy with toll roads over the last couple of decades, and in more recent years has started adding tolled express lanes on what are otherwise "free" highways. Express lane rates vary depending on traffic, and get up over $10 to go about 10-15 miles during rush hour to go to/from downtown Miami. And a shit load of cars take it to the point that even those express lanes have significant slowdowns. They must be raking in the dollars on those. Now they're even going to add express lanes to the turnpike and possibly other highways that are already fully toll roads to give you the option of paying even more to drive those.

Not allowed to charge tolls on interstate highway (other than the express lane thing, which required special permission). Your federal taxes are supposed to pay for those.

The Dolphin, Palmetto, Don Shula, Gratigny, etc. are all state roads.

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Yeah but they still need a place for those things. At all entrances and exits (which again, there are too many to make it financially feasible).

At the end of the day, you need xxx dollars to fix roads. You can a) make the people who use the roads pay it by having a higher gas tax and get xxx dollars from that or b) make the people who use the roads pay it by having toll roads, but toll roads are going to cost yyy dollars up front thereby delaying the amount of time it takes to get xxx dollars by yyy.

I just wanted to make you have to do algebra.

I got a bill in the mail from a highway I used in Indiana on the way home from Florida. Didn't even know it was a toll. Last time I checked there were plenty of exits in Indianapolis.

This would be the way to go. Using cameras that snap a pic of your license plate and you get billed later. They have the same setup in Dallas. It's just a row of cameras that hang over the highway that will snap a pic and you get a bill in the mail at a later date. No massive civil engineering project needed.

kingstonlake wrote:

Travis of the Cosmos wrote:

Yeah but they still need a place for those things. At all entrances and exits (which again, there are too many to make it financially feasible).

At the end of the day, you need xxx dollars to fix roads. You can a) make the people who use the roads pay it by having a higher gas tax and get xxx dollars from that or b) make the people who use the roads pay it by having toll roads, but toll roads are going to cost yyy dollars up front thereby delaying the amount of time it takes to get xxx dollars by yyy.

I just wanted to make you have to do algebra.

I got a bill in the mail from a highway I used in Indiana on the way home from Florida. Didn't even know it was a toll. Last time I checked there were plenty of exits in Indianapolis.

The algebra equation is to imply that any cost greater than 0 is just throwing money away that could be used on the roads directly. They’re both use taxes, one costs nothing and the other costs, well, yyy.

Heat Miser wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:
Do they not have the Turnpike there any longer? Growing up, we'd take the turnpike all the way across the state to go to Philly.

Does Michigan have any tolls around Detroit? It's been forever since I've actually driven in/around Detroit other than from the airport to 94/275/96. Florida, especially South Florida, has gone heavy with toll roads over the last couple of decades, and in more recent years has started adding tolled express lanes on what are otherwise "free" highways. Express lane rates vary depending on traffic, and get up over $10 to go about 10-15 miles during rush hour to go to/from downtown Miami. And a shit load of cars take it to the point that even those express lanes have significant slowdowns. They must be raking in the dollars on those. Now they're even going to add express lanes to the turnpike and possibly other highways that are already fully toll roads to give you the option of paying even more to drive those.

Not allowed to charge tolls on interstate highway (other than the express lane thing, which required special permission). Your federal taxes are supposed to pay for those.

The Dolphin, Palmetto, Don Shula, Gratigny, etc. are all state roads.

There must be exceptions to that, though. I-75 is a toll across alligator alley. And as someone mentioned I-80 is a toll from Chicago to Pennsylvania. But either way, in a city like Detroit where people aren't used to paying tolls, it would be hard to convert a highway that has been around forever to 100% tolls.

Express lanes might be more feasible, and easier for the public to swallow, since people wouldn't have to change their route if they wanted to avoid tolls.