Fuck Michael Jordan

I’ve only seen the reactions to this documentary. Seems like a celebration of a cut throat win at all costs guy. Just want to point out Kareem won just as many championships scored more points and seems like he’d be a better guy to get a beer with.

steveschneider wrote:

Rocinante wrote:And also your Lebron Kareem take is real shitty man.

I'm comfortable with it. Kareem scored more points, has just as many rings and was more dominate in college. I know people loved the fact one of them stuck his tongue when he dunked the ball but I find Kareem's resume far more impressive.

Wilt > Kareem

steveschneider wrote: Seems like a celebration of a cut throat win at all costs guy.

That's a lot of people in sports (and life), bro.

NigelUno wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

I'm comfortable with it. Kareem scored more points, has just as many rings and was more dominate in college. I know people loved the fact one of them stuck his tongue when he dunked the ball but I find Kareem's resume far more impressive.

Wilt > Kareem

Possible, I've never really watched Wilt play. Seen some footage of him as a Laker but only clips. They should make a documentary about him, would be curious to hear the takes of all the people that were around him, played against him and maybe even coached him if they are still around.

Steve sure spends a lot of time thinking and talking about a documentary that he doesn't care about and a player that he hates.

I watched the first episode last night (7) and found my interest sort of fading so I went back to the Wire. I'm sure I will watch the rest because #plandemic but I think I was mostly into it to see the rise, the battles with the Bad Boys, the Isiah stuff, the Dream Team stuff, the James Jordan stuff, and the first retirement. The rest isn't all that captivating.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Steve sure spends a lot of time thinking and talking about a documentary that he doesn't care about and a player that he hates.

I watched the first episode last night (7) and found my interest sort of fading so I went back to the Wire. I'm sure I will watch the rest because #plandemic but I think I was mostly into it to see the rise, the battles with the Bad Boys, the Isiah stuff, the Dream Team stuff, the James Jordan stuff, and the first retirement. The rest isn't all that captivating.

You are correct. I hated that Bulls team just as much if not more than UofM. I watched the Dennis Rodman doc that came out and that's my all time favorite Bull right there. Also, this is just sports hate. Even though I haven't watched the doc I've kind of enjoyed a lot of the bickering that's gone on over twitter.

Also, misery sure does love company...I've seen a few tortured Knicks fans that are more sour about the Jordan era than myself.

MJ would be destroyed today if he retired at 30 after 3 straight and went to play baseball. Jerry Krause for pushing Phil and MJ out after 98 would be absolutely villified

Also being an ahole teammate would not fly

aualum06 wrote:Also being an ahole teammate would not fly

Yeah, I went to see Cal Ripken Jr play his last game in Yankee Stadium. They did a tribute to him and all the flash bulbs were going off in the stands. Was pretty bummed out to find out what an abusive asshole he was to his teammates some years later. I saw some blurbs about Horace Grant, seems like Jordan was an abusive POS to him as well. Is this really a necessary ingredient to be a great athlete?

steveschneider wrote:

aualum06 wrote:Also being an ahole teammate would not fly

Yeah, I went to see Cal Ripken Jr play his last game in Yankee Stadium. They did a tribute to him and all the flash bulbs were going off in the stands. Was pretty bummed out to find out what an abusive asshole he was to his teammates some years later. I saw some blurbs about Horace Grant, seems like Jordan was an abusive POS to him as well. Is this really a necessary ingredient to be a great athlete?

Jordan breaking down and crying at the end of 7 I think shows that he regrets it and knows be was wrong

aualum06 wrote:Also being an ahole teammate would not fly

Teammates will put up with a lot so long as you put in the work and get results. So yeah, you can be an asshole so long as you deliver. Jordan delivered.

Turtleneck wrote:

aualum06 wrote:Also being an ahole teammate would not fly

Teammates will put up with a lot so long as you put in the work and get results. So yeah, you can be an asshole so long as you deliver. Jordan delivered.

Wouldn't pass today. Same way Bobby Knight no longer flies

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Steve sure spends a lot of time thinking and talking about a documentary that he doesn't care about and a player that he hates.

I watched the first episode last night (7) and found my interest sort of fading so I went back to the Wire. I'm sure I will watch the rest because #plandemic but I think I was mostly into it to see the rise, the battles with the Bad Boys, the Isiah stuff, the Dream Team stuff, the James Jordan stuff, and the first retirement. The rest isn't all that captivating.

Watched the first few episodes because they were heavy on the Bad Boys. Hell, it was almost like a Bad Boy documentary.  Don't really care about the rest.

But lol at all the Jordan bashing. Dude was the ultimate competitor, demanding and tough as shit. No different than Draymond, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

Nordic wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Steve sure spends a lot of time thinking and talking about a documentary that he doesn't care about and a player that he hates.

I watched the first episode last night (7) and found my interest sort of fading so I went back to the Wire. I'm sure I will watch the rest because #plandemic but I think I was mostly into it to see the rise, the battles with the Bad Boys, the Isiah stuff, the Dream Team stuff, the James Jordan stuff, and the first retirement. The rest isn't all that captivating.

Watched the first few episodes because they were heavy on the Bad Boys. Hell, it was almost like a Bad Boy documentary.  Don't really care about the rest.

But lol at all the Jordan bashing. Dude was the ultimate competitor, demanding and tough as shit. No different than Draymond, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

I admit it, I was just a real die hard Pistons fan that didn't take it so well. Thinking back I really sports hated the New Jersey Devils for a long time and was able to get over it in the 00's. I went and saw a few concerts in Newark at the Devils arena and seeing the banner up in the rafters even got me a little worked up.

Also, I remember actually kind of coming around and rooting for the Bulls against the Jazz. I remember really enjoying watching Rodman vs Malone that series. I was such a fan of the Worm he got me to soften up on my hardcore anti-bull stance.

Nordic wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:Steve sure spends a lot of time thinking and talking about a documentary that he doesn't care about and a player that he hates.

I watched the first episode last night (7) and found my interest sort of fading so I went back to the Wire. I'm sure I will watch the rest because #plandemic but I think I was mostly into it to see the rise, the battles with the Bad Boys, the Isiah stuff, the Dream Team stuff, the James Jordan stuff, and the first retirement. The rest isn't all that captivating.

Watched the first few episodes because they were heavy on the Bad Boys. Hell, it was almost like a Bad Boy documentary.  Don't really care about the rest.

But lol at all the Jordan bashing. Dude was the ultimate competitor, demanding and tough as shit. No different than Draymond, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

Not a lot of bashing going on

There's no question that today's players are more athletic than in the day. But I'll be honest, my find via google that MJ had a 48" vert was a game changer for me in regards to my opinion on how his game would translate in today's era. Yes, he would still be transcendent 25+ years later in terms of athleticism alone in today's NBA. Less physical game, too. So he's basically Kobe with a better vert, better jumper, slightly more unstoppable fadeaway, and more brutal competitor. I would say his game would translate.

This doc did get me to watch a Max Kellerman hot take on John Stockton vs. Isaiah. UGH I think I killed a lot of brain cells just clicking on it.

It's interesting that names like Wilt Chamberlain and Cal Ripken come up in a discussion about Jordan.  There's a common thread - personal ambition above that of the team.  That doesn't mean you can't also be a great player.  Wilt was a transformative big-man, incredible statistics and if he'd have been able to hit freee-throws, arguably the GOAT.   But the selfish label dogged his career as stats seemed to be his top priority.  I'd argue the same for Ripken as the playing streak seemingly became his top priority.  Not the team, not his production.  Easily a top-five ever shortstop but selfish in his motivations.

Jordan is in similar territory, and while winning was his focus, everything and everyone was in service to his image while winning.  The truth is the NBA of the 90s was watered down a bit, the league modified rules and officiating to benefit MJ, the Bulls (and the Dream Team) all went through his approval (stated or not), and the NBA became a lot like the Bulls as the Harlem Globetrotters and the league as the Washington Generals.  A couple of minor spoilers in that stretch (Orlando, MJ with gambling, death of his father, baseball - correlation or causation) but it was a coronation parade.  

What Jordan has in that elite GOAT territory is he used his selfishness to put up titles.   Since the Bulls in the 90s, the NBA has become inorganic as players try to assemble their team with an elite 3-player or so core.  The Bulls had to build their team the old-fashioned way but they needed the elite teams of the 80s (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons) to fade while no other competitor rose.  It helped the legacy of Jordan.  But what's true at this point with this documentary is this isn't about determining the worth of MJ in the GOAT struggle.  It's creating the story-arc that adds to the myth he wants built around his legacy.  

I tend to admire players at that elite level who combine greatness with class.  So a Bill Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Duncan rise in my view while Jordan and Chamberlain sink.  It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the talent of MJ.  Great player, arguably the greatest the NBA has seen.  But if I met him, I'd feign ignorance and offer a "I'm sorry I don't know who you are" just to put a dent in that ego.....

P.S.  Tiger Stadium, early 90's.  Took my nephew (8 years old at the time) to a game.  Watching the players warm up, nephew wanted to get an autograph so we're down by the dugout watching Trammell loosen up and playing catch inside the third base line.  Nephew says "who is that?" pointing at Tram, and clearly and loudly I said "that is Alan Trammell, the best shortstop in baseball.  Some say Cal Ripken but he's just a gimmick with a playing streak."  Tram finished up and walks straight to the nephew to sign a ball.  Players know.  The classy ones don't talk about it publicly.

Heathens '87 wrote:It's interesting that names like Wilt Chamberlain and Cal Ripken come up in a discussion about Jordan.  There's a common thread - personal ambition above that of the team.  That doesn't mean you can't also be a great player.  Wilt was a transformative big-man, incredible statistics and if he'd have been able to hit freee-throws, arguably the GOAT.   But the selfish label dogged his career as stats seemed to be his top priority.  I'd argue the same for Ripken as the playing streak seemingly became his top priority.  Not the team, not his production.  Easily a top-five ever shortstop but selfish in his motivations.

Jordan is in similar territory, and while winning was his focus, everything and everyone was in service to his image while winning.  The truth is the NBA of the 90s was watered down a bit, the league modified rules and officiating to benefit MJ, the Bulls (and the Dream Team) all went through his approval (stated or not), and the NBA became a lot like the Bulls as the Harlem Globetrotters and the league as the Washington Generals.  A couple of minor spoilers in that stretch (Orlando, MJ with gambling, death of his father, baseball - correlation or causation) but it was a coronation parade.  

What Jordan has in that elite GOAT territory is he used his selfishness to put up titles.   Since the Bulls in the 90s, the NBA has become inorganic as players try to assemble their team with an elite 3-player or so core.  The Bulls had to build their team the old-fashioned way but they needed the elite teams of the 80s (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons) to fade while no other competitor rose.  It helped the legacy of Jordan.  But what's true at this point with this documentary is this isn't about determining the worth of MJ in the GOAT struggle.  It's creating the story-arc that adds to the myth he wants built around his legacy.  

I tend to admire players at that elite level who combine greatness with class.  So a Bill Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Duncan rise in my view while Jordan and Chamberlain sink.  It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the talent of MJ.  Great player, arguably the greatest the NBA has seen.  But if I met him, I'd feign ignorance and offer a "I'm sorry I don't know who you are" just to put a dent in that ego.....

P.S.  Tiger Stadium, early 90's.  Took my nephew (8 years old at the time) to a game.  Watching the players warm up, nephew wanted to get an autograph so we're down by the dugout watching Trammell loosen up and playing catch inside the third base line.  Nephew says "who is that?" pointing at Tram, and clearly and loudly I said "that is Alan Trammell, the best shortstop in baseball.  Some say Cal Ripken but he's just a gimmick with a playing streak."  Tram finished up and walks straight to the nephew to sign a ball.  Players know.  The classy ones don't talk about it publicly.

Yeah, I forget the player but it was some guy that came forth and talked about the rookie hazing he took from Cal. It was some real sadistic stuff that he did to the player and I can't ever think of Cal without those stories popping into my mind. The stuff he did to him honestly just sounded like torture.

Prior to that I always really respected him and seeing him in Yankee Stadium to say 'farewell' with the fans was a special live sports memory for me.

steveschneider wrote:
Yeah, I forget the player but it was some guy that came forth and talked about the rookie hazing he took from Cal. It was some real sadistic stuff that he did to the player and I can't ever think of Cal without those stories popping into my mind. The stuff he did to him honestly just sounded like torture.

Prior to that I always really respected him and seeing him in Yankee Stadium to say 'farewell' with the fans was a special live sports memory for me.

Gregg Zaun. Ripken denied it. Who knows. As said, Cal was a great player. But the Orioles couldn't sit him when they needed to (age, health, production, betterment of the team) as the streak was bigger than any team goal. That statistic, and it's just another stat, speaks to his focus.

It's odd how many of these truly elite GOAT-territory athletes are rather unlikable if they don't have something that balances that ego-driven selfish competitiveness. I get that is a big part of why they are that good. But there are plenty of examples of great players with class and balance in their lives. Nicklaus, Howe, Jackie Robinson, Abdul-Jabbar, Ali, etc. That Jordan never did anything to extend his status to help the African-American community says a lot about his priorities.....

Heathens '87 wrote:

steveschneider wrote:
Yeah, I forget the player but it was some guy that came forth and talked about the rookie hazing he took from Cal. It was some real sadistic stuff that he did to the player and I can't ever think of Cal without those stories popping into my mind. The stuff he did to him honestly just sounded like torture.

Prior to that I always really respected him and seeing him in Yankee Stadium to say 'farewell' with the fans was a special live sports memory for me.

Gregg Zaun. Ripken denied it. Who knows. As said, Cal was a great player. But the Orioles couldn't sit him when they needed to (age, health, production, betterment of the team) as the streak was bigger than any team goal. That statistic, and it's just another stat, speaks to his focus.

It's odd how many of these truly elite GOAT-territory athletes are rather unlikable if they don't have something that balances that ego-driven selfish competitiveness. I get that is a big part of why they are that good. But there are plenty of examples of great players with class and balance in their lives. Nicklaus, Howe, Jackie Robinson, Abdul-Jabbar, Ali, etc. That Jordan never did anything to extend his status to help the African-American community says a lot about his priorities.....

I know it's a different era, but in baseball we idiolize babe ruth even though he never faced pitching like Barry Bonds. Why can't we show similar reverence to Kareem? His resume is one of the best in the game, he's super intelligent and a great humanitarian. It seems like it takes extreme sports geeks to keep his name in the conversation.

steveschneider wrote:

I know it's a different era, but in baseball we idiolize babe ruth even though he never faced pitching like Barry Bonds. Why can't we show similar reverence to Kareem? His resume is one of the best in the game, he's super intelligent and a great humanitarian. It seems like it takes extreme sports geeks to keep his name in the conversation.

Flash and ego always get attention by the masses.  Quietly going about your work, even if it's as a professional athlete, with class does not.  And when you're looking at those elite-level athletes, too many look at the flash and ego as the difference.  Heck, I'll even take ego and flash when it combines with humanitarian work, political work, social justice, etc.  Jordan has none of that in his legacy (sort of like Tiger Woods) while Ali is a perfect example of using a platform. Kareem did as well, but was quiet, reserved, oddly shy and much more of an intellectual than most basketball players then or since.  If arguing him for GOAT consideration makes us "extreme sports geeks," well, I'm fine with that.  Mainly because we're not wrong......

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:There's no question that today's players are more athletic than in the day. But I'll be honest, my find via google that MJ had a 48" vert was a game changer for me in regards to my opinion on how his game would translate in today's era. Yes, he would still be transcendent 25+ years later in terms of athleticism alone in today's NBA. Less physical game, too. So he's basically Kobe with a better vert, better jumper, slightly more unstoppable fadeaway, and more brutal competitor. I would say his game would translate.

Agree. He was an athletic freak. Like Barry Sanders, he was one of a kind physically. You could drop 1990s Jordan in the 2020 game and he would dominate. Give him 2020 training and he would he would be even more so. Add in his mental game and he's the GOAT. IMO his game would play better now than it did in the Bad Boy era.

Kareem was bit before my time. My only memories of him were when he was older and slow. I just remember him cherry picking fast breaks because he couldn't run down the court fast enough any more. I'm sure he would still be a great player in 2020, but his size played a big factor back then. Big guys are harder to gauge IMO. Big guys that could move were rare back then.

I read a good summary of the documentary that said the take away is don't be like Michael Jordan where you are so competitive and petty it fucks you up in all your relationships with normal human beings. I think the take away of this thread is don't be a bitter fan full of sports hate.

Also, I think the takes praising his cut throat mentality are over looking other greats like Tim Duncan. IMO the GOAT at his position, and just one miracle three pointer away from being a six time champion like Jordan. Classier guy and did it by convincing his team to buy in and work together as a unit.

It's political but not the point of sharing.  What's interesting to me in light of this discussion is that Kareem continues to be willing to use his position in society that was afforded to him through basketball to make for a better society.  Somehow I don't think I'm going to be opening the Guardian someday to read a well-written and thoughtful op-ed from Michael Jordan......

If I were Donald Trump's speechwriter, this is what I would suggest

Heathens '87 wrote:It's political but not the point of sharing.  What's interesting to me in light of this discussion is that Kareem continues to be willing to use his position in society that was afforded to him through basketball to make for a better society.  Somehow I don't think I'm going to be opening the Guardian someday to read a well-written and thoughtful op-ed from Michael Jordan......

If I were Donald Trump's speechwriter, this is what I would suggest

Don't disagree, but to Jordan's credit he's a remarkable businessman and I think he's shared his knowledge with others. He's definitely done a lot of good as well. He also lifted the league and helped other players earn more money. I give him credit for doing his part to help end generational poverty.

Not as cerebral as Kareem, but Magic seems to be out there quite a bit talking about the coronavirus, specifically the effect on African-Americans.

On a note more related to thread, what I find incredible about Magic, apart from all that he's achieved of course, is that 40 years on from him starting his career, we still haven't seen another 6'9" PG. Magic was supposed to start a new trend. But no one that big has been able to be successful like that.

Heathens '87 wrote:It's political but not the point of sharing.  What's interesting to me in light of this discussion is that Kareem continues to be willing to use his position in society that was afforded to him through basketball to make for a better society.  Somehow I don't think I'm going to be opening the Guardian someday to read a well-written and thoughtful op-ed from Michael Jordan......

If I were Donald Trump's speechwriter, this is what I would suggest

I think you mean Roger Murdock.

MiamiSpartan wrote:Not as cerebral as Kareem, but Magic seems to be out there quite a bit talking about the coronavirus, specifically the effect on African-Americans.

On a note more related to thread, what I find incredible about Magic, apart from all that he's achieved of course, is that 40 years on from him starting his career, we still haven't seen another 6'9" PG. Magic was supposed to start a new trend. But no one that big has been able to be successful like that.

Watching E8 recounting the Bulls loss to the Magic in '95(?) I was thinking, man, it would have been fun to watch Penny's career had he not gotten hurt. Penny was really REALLY good. Certainly not as good as Magic, but fun to watch, more athletic, good shooter, good passer.

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

MiamiSpartan wrote:Not as cerebral as Kareem, but Magic seems to be out there quite a bit talking about the coronavirus, specifically the effect on African-Americans.

On a note more related to thread, what I find incredible about Magic, apart from all that he's achieved of course, is that 40 years on from him starting his career, we still haven't seen another 6'9" PG. Magic was supposed to start a new trend. But no one that big has been able to be successful like that.

Watching E8 recounting the Bulls loss to the Magic in '95(?) I was thinking, man, it would have been fun to watch Penny's career had he not gotten hurt. Penny was really REALLY good. Certainly not as good as Magic, but fun to watch, more athletic, good shooter, good passer.

Just have fun and google Magic Johnson on youtube. Bored? His highlights are still jaw dropping. How the hell MSU lost a game his sophomore year is beyond me. He had to be out partying and shit the night before or the day of games, because that team was the equivalent of the "Big Three" teams we see today in the pros. Jay Vincent, Magic Johnson, Greg Kelser, were the big three superstars, and then you had such a great supporting cast. It was a perfectly put together team in my opinion.

As to not seeing 6'9" point guards, Jud had his own answer for that. He said that yes indeed, everyone over 6'7" he'd recruit after Magic asked if they could be a point guard for him. He always assured them they could. When they got to campus, and he'd have them under the basket or on the block and they'd object, he'd tell them "Look, you are my point guard, that's just where we happen to play our point guards".

DWags wrote:

WhiteBoyHatcher wrote:

Watching E8 recounting the Bulls loss to the Magic in '95(?) I was thinking, man, it would have been fun to watch Penny's career had he not gotten hurt. Penny was really REALLY good. Certainly not as good as Magic, but fun to watch, more athletic, good shooter, good passer.

Just have fun and google Magic Johnson on youtube. Bored? His highlights are still jaw dropping. How the hell MSU lost a game his sophomore year is beyond me. He had to be out partying and shit the night before or the day of games, because that team was the equivalent of the "Big Three" teams we see today in the pros. Jay Vincent, Magic Johnson, Greg Kelser, were the big three superstars, and then you had such a great supporting cast. It was a perfectly put together team in my opinion.

As to not seeing 6'9" point guards, Jud had his own answer for that. He said that yes indeed, everyone over 6'7" he'd recruit after Magic asked if they could be a point guard for him. He always assured them they could. When they got to campus, and he'd have them under the basket or on the block and they'd object, he'd tell them "Look, you are my point guard, that's just where we happen to play our point guards".

No 3 point line back then, so most teams just packed it in (playing zone) on defense (including MSU). That took away a lot of freedom on offense.

Kind of weird watching the championship game and seeing Donnelly or Brkovich bringing the ball up.

steveschneider wrote:

NigelUno wrote:

Wilt > Kareem

Possible, I've never really watched Wilt play. Seen some footage of him as a Laker but only clips. They should make a documentary about him, would be curious to hear the takes of all the people that were around him, played against him and maybe even coached him if they are still around.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

30.1 PPG, 22.9 RPG, 4.4 APG

"Chamberlain was truly ahead of his time. His numbers -- including scoring an NBA-record 100 points in a single game and averaging 50 points per game for an entire season -- are mythical. The only reason he doesn't rank higher on lists of the all-time greats is he won "only" two NBA championships."

aualum06 wrote:

Nordic wrote:

Watched the first few episodes because they were heavy on the Bad Boys. Hell, it was almost like a Bad Boy documentary.  Don't really care about the rest.

But lol at all the Jordan bashing. Dude was the ultimate competitor, demanding and tough as shit. No different than Draymond, Lebron, Kobe, etc.

Not a lot of bashing going on

Have you read the title of this thread?

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

aualum06 wrote:

Not a lot of bashing going on

Have you read the title of this thread?

Or 50% of the posts?

NigelUno wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

Possible, I've never really watched Wilt play. Seen some footage of him as a Laker but only clips. They should make a documentary about him, would be curious to hear the takes of all the people that were around him, played against him and maybe even coached him if they are still around.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

30.1 PPG, 22.9 RPG, 4.4 APG

"Chamberlain was truly ahead of his time. His numbers -- including scoring an NBA-record 100 points in a single game and averaging 50 points per game for an entire season -- are mythical. The only reason he doesn't rank higher on lists of the all-time greats is he won "only" two NBA championships."

I wish there was more footage of him. I'd love to see what kind of stuff he had in his prime. I remember taking a deep dive into all of his accomplishments and he is a freak of nature in terms of an athlete. All his track and field accomplishments, his bench press, the amount of three somes he was in to his basketball game there's no question the guy was a Bo Jackson level genetic freak of nature.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

aualum06 wrote:

Not a lot of bashing going on

Have you read the title of this thread?

The 'Fuck (___fill in Blank___) is one of my signature thread titles. It shouldn't be taken too seriously.

steveschneider wrote:

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

Have you read the title of this thread?

The 'Fuck (___fill in Blank___) is one of my signature thread titles. It shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Fuck you Steve.

Watch Out Pylon! wrote:

steveschneider wrote:

The 'Fuck (___fill in Blank___) is one of my signature thread titles. It shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Fuck you Steve.

That's the spirit.